Am I the dinosaur?
05-15-20, 10:00 AM
#51
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Okay.....call me old and out of touch. I would probably agree to a point. But when I look at new bikes online the push seems to be either pure road bikes migrating to disc brakes (hydraulic or mechanical) as the almost only option. I still love my caliper brakes due to simple simplicity.
So the dinosaur I seem to be, do you feel the eventual path is to certainly extinct the caliper concept?
So the dinosaur I seem to be, do you feel the eventual path is to certainly extinct the caliper concept?
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05-15-20, 10:10 AM
#52
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If the tyre loses traction while braking, it doesn't matter what type of brake one uses. The Anti-lock Braking System was not developed because cars needed more power to stop, but because the brakes had too much power and people didn't know how to use it. We don't need more stopping power, we need people to learn how to use it. The next 'innovation' for e-bikes will definetely be ABS as the riding speed increases and e-bikes merge with electric motorbikes.
The wider tyre trend started with the arrival of mass produced carbon frames and wheels. The imaginary want for 'stiffness' has become too stiff. Enter wide tyres. All of a sudden disc brakes become a 'must and much needed safety item' as opposed to a fit issue. So all this useless 'innovation' and upgrading, just to make a bike more compliant (or flexible) because the bikes of old made of metal were flexible 🙃. The circle is complete now 🙃
My rant is not about the 'want' aspect of it, it's about the 'need' aspect of it. A manufactured need, is not a real need.
However, if having disc brakes gets you out riding, by all means, get riding.
The wider tyre trend started with the arrival of mass produced carbon frames and wheels. The imaginary want for 'stiffness' has become too stiff. Enter wide tyres. All of a sudden disc brakes become a 'must and much needed safety item' as opposed to a fit issue. So all this useless 'innovation' and upgrading, just to make a bike more compliant (or flexible) because the bikes of old made of metal were flexible 🙃. The circle is complete now 🙃
My rant is not about the 'want' aspect of it, it's about the 'need' aspect of it. A manufactured need, is not a real need.
However, if having disc brakes gets you out riding, by all means, get riding.
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05-15-20, 10:30 AM
#54
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05-15-20, 11:11 AM
#57
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Okay.....call me old and out of touch. I would probably agree to a point. But when I look at new bikes online the push seems to be either pure road bikes migrating to disc brakes (hydraulic or mechanical) as the almost only option. I still love my caliper brakes due to simple simplicity.
So the dinosaur I seem to be, do you feel the eventual path is to certainly extinct the caliper concept?
So the dinosaur I seem to be, do you feel the eventual path is to certainly extinct the caliper concept?
05-15-20, 12:17 PM
#59
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I wish we had rim brakes on our tandem. We go through a rim every year - they last 2 years and I stagger the wheel rebuilds. We ride outside all winter and the roads are gritty. It's actually worse when the roads are wet and it's not raining. That wouldn't be so bad except that good rims come and go as the market changes, which then changes spoke length, which gets expensive with 36 CX-Rays. So yeah, I'm glad rims brakes are disappearing on tandems.
I'd feel the same about singles except that I have a rain bike with 20 y.o. Open Pro Ceramic rims which simply don't wear, period. If not for that, I'd have to look for a disc rain bike. I don't mind the stopping issue particularly; one get's used to that, it's the rim wear.
I'd feel the same about singles except that I have a rain bike with 20 y.o. Open Pro Ceramic rims which simply don't wear, period. If not for that, I'd have to look for a disc rain bike. I don't mind the stopping issue particularly; one get's used to that, it's the rim wear.
I spent 12 years in Ballard, 33 now in Portland. Re-rimmed many a wheel. But I ride singles and love wheel building so I'll live with the rebuilds. Will be starting a new/old game next rebuilds as I;'ll go tubular - back to my old love (and tires I fully trust going down Cascades descents). So it will be new spokes time every time.
Ben
05-15-20, 12:31 PM
#60
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Introducing some more points:
1) To the point about getting enough braking force: There's that old video where a series of descending racers and support cars totally screw up coming into a hairpin at high speed. One racer lifts the rear wheel off the ground and holds it off, going in a straight line for maybe 150' before T-boning a car in the hairpin. Plenty of rim braking power. Tire width doesn't matter. Area does not appear in the equation for friction force.
2) To the point about descending reliability, several points: On a famous group tandem descent from Mont Ventoux, the only tandems to make the descent without damage were rim braked. Their secret? They stopped to let things cool. The disc braked bikes all melted various components, warped rotors, burnt out pads, etc. A friend of ours with only a rear disc on their tandem red-hotted their disc and went into the blackberries on a short steep descent. We were fine on our rim brakes. I understand that tandem disc brakes can be modified with non-stock discs and pads and do better than that now, but so can rims.
3) To the disparagement of drum brakes: When we go on loaded tours, our tandem's all-up weight is about 375 lbs. I built a rear wheel for touring with has the famous and long off the market Arai drum brake. It's a drag brake. I put it on at the top of steep descents and just leave it on, holding the speed down to 35-40 and apply rim brakes as necessary for corners. It never overheats or varies in drag force. A disc brake won't do that.
4) Drum brakes vs. discs is not a similar argument to rim brakes vs. discs. Rims are the largest disc brakes on the market, 622mm diameter. The braking issue wouldn't even be close if it weren't for the issue of clinchers blowing off the rims under great heat, which makes me curious about tubies on deep alu rims, or the issue in #5 .
5) Yes, there's the issue of rim wear. That could be fixed simply by one manufacturer offering a ceramic brake track option on one decent deep alu rim with many drillings. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of call for that, largely because people don't know about it, but also because those who only ride in the dry don't wear their rims and they make up the vast majority of cyclists.
6) I think the real reason for the almost universal adoption of discs is the introduction of carbon wheels. They are the future and they need to be disc braked.
1) To the point about getting enough braking force: There's that old video where a series of descending racers and support cars totally screw up coming into a hairpin at high speed. One racer lifts the rear wheel off the ground and holds it off, going in a straight line for maybe 150' before T-boning a car in the hairpin. Plenty of rim braking power. Tire width doesn't matter. Area does not appear in the equation for friction force.
2) To the point about descending reliability, several points: On a famous group tandem descent from Mont Ventoux, the only tandems to make the descent without damage were rim braked. Their secret? They stopped to let things cool. The disc braked bikes all melted various components, warped rotors, burnt out pads, etc. A friend of ours with only a rear disc on their tandem red-hotted their disc and went into the blackberries on a short steep descent. We were fine on our rim brakes. I understand that tandem disc brakes can be modified with non-stock discs and pads and do better than that now, but so can rims.
3) To the disparagement of drum brakes: When we go on loaded tours, our tandem's all-up weight is about 375 lbs. I built a rear wheel for touring with has the famous and long off the market Arai drum brake. It's a drag brake. I put it on at the top of steep descents and just leave it on, holding the speed down to 35-40 and apply rim brakes as necessary for corners. It never overheats or varies in drag force. A disc brake won't do that.
4) Drum brakes vs. discs is not a similar argument to rim brakes vs. discs. Rims are the largest disc brakes on the market, 622mm diameter. The braking issue wouldn't even be close if it weren't for the issue of clinchers blowing off the rims under great heat, which makes me curious about tubies on deep alu rims, or the issue in #5 .
5) Yes, there's the issue of rim wear. That could be fixed simply by one manufacturer offering a ceramic brake track option on one decent deep alu rim with many drillings. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of call for that, largely because people don't know about it, but also because those who only ride in the dry don't wear their rims and they make up the vast majority of cyclists.
6) I think the real reason for the almost universal adoption of discs is the introduction of carbon wheels. They are the future and they need to be disc braked.
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05-15-20, 12:41 PM
#61
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Another lava dust rider. That stuff is rim killer! And the NW wet.
I spent 12 years in Ballard, 33 now in Portland. Re-rimmed many a wheel. But I ride singles and love wheel building so I'll live with the rebuilds. Will be starting a new/old game next rebuilds as I;'ll go tubular - back to my old love (and tires I fully trust going down Cascades descents). So it will be new spokes time every time.
Ben
I spent 12 years in Ballard, 33 now in Portland. Re-rimmed many a wheel. But I ride singles and love wheel building so I'll live with the rebuilds. Will be starting a new/old game next rebuilds as I;'ll go tubular - back to my old love (and tires I fully trust going down Cascades descents). So it will be new spokes time every time.
Ben
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05-15-20, 02:08 PM
#62
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As you said, the small aero advantage. I am switching over to discs entirely for my road bikes - have 2 bikes left that are rim brakes: 1 is gonna stay for trainer use, the other is getting sold. But for my TT bike, am going to stick to rim brakes. Not just the aero advantage but because i travel a lot and dont want to have disc rub sucking away precious watts with every turn of the wheel.
Brake tracks aren't very good when it comes to aerodynamics, better disc wheels lost them and have a smooth transition to the tire. The brake mechanism is hidden behind the fork arm, instead of protruding from the front of the bike.
It's a complicated picture. Caliper brakes generally have a small aero advantage but not always.
As more and more people ride discs, any advantage becomes theoretical.
05-15-20, 02:11 PM
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05-15-20, 02:17 PM
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05-15-20, 02:36 PM
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Now here's the freaky-deek bike. Anyone who doesn't like this is just a dinosaur.
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05-15-20, 04:03 PM
#67
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Introducing some more points:
1) To the point about getting enough braking force: There's that old video where a series of descending racers and support cars totally screw up coming into a hairpin at high speed. One racer lifts the rear wheel off the ground and holds it off, going in a straight line for maybe 150' before T-boning a car in the hairpin. Plenty of rim braking power. Tire width doesn't matter. Area does not appear in the equation for friction force.
1) To the point about getting enough braking force: There's that old video where a series of descending racers and support cars totally screw up coming into a hairpin at high speed. One racer lifts the rear wheel off the ground and holds it off, going in a straight line for maybe 150' before T-boning a car in the hairpin. Plenty of rim braking power. Tire width doesn't matter. Area does not appear in the equation for friction force.
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05-15-20, 05:46 PM
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05-15-20, 05:58 PM
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05-15-20, 07:13 PM
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Is there a maximum width these bikes have to adhere to with their fairings/fender/fork/wheel containment assemblies?
05-15-20, 07:32 PM
#72
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05-15-20, 08:43 PM
#73
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TT bikes are interesting... I haven't paid much attention to if any pros are riding disks yet on their TT bikes. Triathletes certainly have embraced disks on their hyper-aero bikes, so I don't see why TT bikes wouldn't follow suit.
BTW, If your disks are rubbing, your brakes might need some love
I'd go insane if my brake pads were rubbing on the discs...
BTW, If your disks are rubbing, your brakes might need some love
I'd go insane if my brake pads were rubbing on the discs...Disc brakes are aerodynamically superior when the wind is blowing from the right.
Brake tracks aren't very good when it comes to aerodynamics, better disc wheels lost them and have a smooth transition to the tire. The brake mechanism is hidden behind the fork arm, instead of protruding from the front of the bike.
It's a complicated picture. Caliper brakes generally have a small aero advantage but not always.
As more and more people ride discs, any advantage becomes theoretical.
Brake tracks aren't very good when it comes to aerodynamics, better disc wheels lost them and have a smooth transition to the tire. The brake mechanism is hidden behind the fork arm, instead of protruding from the front of the bike.
It's a complicated picture. Caliper brakes generally have a small aero advantage but not always.
As more and more people ride discs, any advantage becomes theoretical.
And more importantly, I dont want to be rushing around a day before the race trying to get my rotors trued or pads aligned because of some issue in transit or whatever. Has happened to me with my Venge and it is a hassle/stress I do not need when i have traveled somewhere to race.
My decision isnt motivated by any retro-grouchery. I *like* disc brakes. But at present, there is no significant upside to getting disc brakes for my TT bike and a big plus (reduced bike setup stress when I am in a new location and already dealing with pre-race nerves) for sticking with rim brakes. Am quite happy with the decision... others are free to choose differently, of course.
Last edited by guadzilla; 05-16-20 at 12:57 AM.
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05-15-20, 08:51 PM
#74
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I love the modern aero TT bikes and their flamboyant designs.., something pretty cool about seeing how creative designers can get in terms of balancing the various requirements of triathlon (aero, comfort/sizing flexibility and storage).
05-15-20, 08:58 PM
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The CEECO/CEEPO reminds me of a steam locomotive. The front wheel is the driving wheel.