11 Speed Cassette on 10 Speed Hub
01-06-17, 08:00 PM
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edit - 1.8mm is 0.0709". Is there a reason you chose to take up that ten with the lockring?
01-10-17, 10:41 AM
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1. Every wheel and hub is a different scenario. What works for one may or may not work on another.
2. Most/many 10 speed wheels can be converted to work with 11 speed road cassettes. It simply requires machining 1.8mm off the shoulder of the freehub body.
3. Ones that won't work for this= ones where they moved that shoulder in so tight to the right flange that there is either not enough room/shoulder left to remove, or that by doing so the largest cog on the cassette is going to run into the drive side spokes.
4. Shimano 11 speed mtb cassettes use the shorter freehub body (8/9/10) because it's a mtb cassette. The largest cog is usually 32 or larger so it easily clears the spokes because of the bracing angle on the drive side. SRAM decided against that and created their XD driver.
5. Re-dishing is required if the conversion to 11 includes a freehub swap and endcap or spacer swap that actually adjusts the centerline of the axle slightly to accommodate the 1.8mm difference. While re-dishing is a quick process I don't blame Zipp for suggesting it should be done in house. If I had a dollar for every time a shop or rider thought they could easily or quickly true something only for it eventually to end up back with me because they messed up the tension balance of the wheel at the same time.....well wait a minute I usually get a dollar for every time that happens...nevermind.
My $0.02. Conversion cassettes = a waste of time. The only reason to use one would be if the following was true:
1. You had an amazing wheel that was just quite irreplaceable.
2. That wheel did not have the ability to have 1.8mm machined off the freehub body.
3. There were no parts available (11 speed freehub conversion option).
4. Even though there wasn't enough room to machine the 1.8mm - by some miracle the largest cog on said conversion cassette is still larges enough to clear spokes - highly unlikely as building the hub like this to begin with was done to exploit the addded flange spacing making the spokes closer as well. Usually involves having the largest cog be at LEAST a 28 or larger.
If you match number 1 in there then its usually because it's a special purpose wheel. Usually that special purpose wheel is going to be a race wheel. In that case the cassette needed is usually a 25 cog largest which would normally run into problems.
The ONLY situation I can think of where I would use a conversion cassette: Alchemy hubs. They are the shiz and Jeremy is out of business and doesn't have any more 11 speed freehub conversions for ORC v1. I have about 3 or 4 of these hubs sitting on my desk no longer having homes. A shame. Such a stellar design. We've been squeaking out some life on our team issued ones as there are still riders on 10 but each year that gets smaller and this season seems to be the season 10 dies in our world of racing.
2. Most/many 10 speed wheels can be converted to work with 11 speed road cassettes. It simply requires machining 1.8mm off the shoulder of the freehub body.
3. Ones that won't work for this= ones where they moved that shoulder in so tight to the right flange that there is either not enough room/shoulder left to remove, or that by doing so the largest cog on the cassette is going to run into the drive side spokes.
4. Shimano 11 speed mtb cassettes use the shorter freehub body (8/9/10) because it's a mtb cassette. The largest cog is usually 32 or larger so it easily clears the spokes because of the bracing angle on the drive side. SRAM decided against that and created their XD driver.
5. Re-dishing is required if the conversion to 11 includes a freehub swap and endcap or spacer swap that actually adjusts the centerline of the axle slightly to accommodate the 1.8mm difference. While re-dishing is a quick process I don't blame Zipp for suggesting it should be done in house. If I had a dollar for every time a shop or rider thought they could easily or quickly true something only for it eventually to end up back with me because they messed up the tension balance of the wheel at the same time.....well wait a minute I usually get a dollar for every time that happens...nevermind.
My $0.02. Conversion cassettes = a waste of time. The only reason to use one would be if the following was true:
1. You had an amazing wheel that was just quite irreplaceable.
2. That wheel did not have the ability to have 1.8mm machined off the freehub body.
3. There were no parts available (11 speed freehub conversion option).
4. Even though there wasn't enough room to machine the 1.8mm - by some miracle the largest cog on said conversion cassette is still larges enough to clear spokes - highly unlikely as building the hub like this to begin with was done to exploit the addded flange spacing making the spokes closer as well. Usually involves having the largest cog be at LEAST a 28 or larger.
If you match number 1 in there then its usually because it's a special purpose wheel. Usually that special purpose wheel is going to be a race wheel. In that case the cassette needed is usually a 25 cog largest which would normally run into problems.
The ONLY situation I can think of where I would use a conversion cassette: Alchemy hubs. They are the shiz and Jeremy is out of business and doesn't have any more 11 speed freehub conversions for ORC v1. I have about 3 or 4 of these hubs sitting on my desk no longer having homes. A shame. Such a stellar design. We've been squeaking out some life on our team issued ones as there are still riders on 10 but each year that gets smaller and this season seems to be the season 10 dies in our world of racing.
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01-10-17, 11:19 AM
#28
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1. Every wheel and hub is a different scenario. What works for one may or may not work on another.
2. Most/many 10 speed wheels can be converted to work with 11 speed road cassettes. It simply requires machining 1.8mm off the shoulder of the freehub body.
3. Ones that won't work for this= ones where they moved that shoulder in so tight to the right flange that there is either not enough room/shoulder left to remove, or that by doing so the largest cog on the cassette is going to run into the drive side spokes.
4. Shimano 11 speed mtb cassettes use the shorter freehub body (8/9/10) because it's a mtb cassette. The largest cog is usually 32 or larger so it easily clears the spokes because of the bracing angle on the drive side. SRAM decided against that and created their XD driver.
5. Re-dishing is required if the conversion to 11 includes a freehub swap and endcap or spacer swap that actually adjusts the centerline of the axle slightly to accommodate the 1.8mm difference. While re-dishing is a quick process I don't blame Zipp for suggesting it should be done in house. If I had a dollar for every time a shop or rider thought they could easily or quickly true something only for it eventually to end up back with me because they messed up the tension balance of the wheel at the same time.....well wait a minute I usually get a dollar for every time that happens...nevermind.
My $0.02. Conversion cassettes = a waste of time. The only reason to use one would be if the following was true:
1. You had an amazing wheel that was just quite irreplaceable.
2. That wheel did not have the ability to have 1.8mm machined off the freehub body.
3. There were no parts available (11 speed freehub conversion option).
4. Even though there wasn't enough room to machine the 1.8mm - by some miracle the largest cog on said conversion cassette is still larges enough to clear spokes - highly unlikely as building the hub like this to begin with was done to exploit the addded flange spacing making the spokes closer as well. Usually involves having the largest cog be at LEAST a 28 or larger.
If you match number 1 in there then its usually because it's a special purpose wheel. Usually that special purpose wheel is going to be a race wheel. In that case the cassette needed is usually a 25 cog largest which would normally run into problems.
The ONLY situation I can think of where I would use a conversion cassette: Alchemy hubs. They are the shiz and Jeremy is out of business and doesn't have any more 11 speed freehub conversions for ORC v1. I have about 3 or 4 of these hubs sitting on my desk no longer having homes. A shame. Such a stellar design. We've been squeaking out some life on our team issued ones as there are still riders on 10 but each year that gets smaller and this season seems to be the season 10 dies in our world of racing.
2. Most/many 10 speed wheels can be converted to work with 11 speed road cassettes. It simply requires machining 1.8mm off the shoulder of the freehub body.
3. Ones that won't work for this= ones where they moved that shoulder in so tight to the right flange that there is either not enough room/shoulder left to remove, or that by doing so the largest cog on the cassette is going to run into the drive side spokes.
4. Shimano 11 speed mtb cassettes use the shorter freehub body (8/9/10) because it's a mtb cassette. The largest cog is usually 32 or larger so it easily clears the spokes because of the bracing angle on the drive side. SRAM decided against that and created their XD driver.
5. Re-dishing is required if the conversion to 11 includes a freehub swap and endcap or spacer swap that actually adjusts the centerline of the axle slightly to accommodate the 1.8mm difference. While re-dishing is a quick process I don't blame Zipp for suggesting it should be done in house. If I had a dollar for every time a shop or rider thought they could easily or quickly true something only for it eventually to end up back with me because they messed up the tension balance of the wheel at the same time.....well wait a minute I usually get a dollar for every time that happens...nevermind.
My $0.02. Conversion cassettes = a waste of time. The only reason to use one would be if the following was true:
1. You had an amazing wheel that was just quite irreplaceable.
2. That wheel did not have the ability to have 1.8mm machined off the freehub body.
3. There were no parts available (11 speed freehub conversion option).
4. Even though there wasn't enough room to machine the 1.8mm - by some miracle the largest cog on said conversion cassette is still larges enough to clear spokes - highly unlikely as building the hub like this to begin with was done to exploit the addded flange spacing making the spokes closer as well. Usually involves having the largest cog be at LEAST a 28 or larger.
If you match number 1 in there then its usually because it's a special purpose wheel. Usually that special purpose wheel is going to be a race wheel. In that case the cassette needed is usually a 25 cog largest which would normally run into problems.
The ONLY situation I can think of where I would use a conversion cassette: Alchemy hubs. They are the shiz and Jeremy is out of business and doesn't have any more 11 speed freehub conversions for ORC v1. I have about 3 or 4 of these hubs sitting on my desk no longer having homes. A shame. Such a stellar design. We've been squeaking out some life on our team issued ones as there are still riders on 10 but each year that gets smaller and this season seems to be the season 10 dies in our world of racing.
Last edited by rpenmanparker; 01-10-17 at 11:30 AM.
01-10-17, 12:31 PM
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Rob, you are the expert, but I tell you the 10-speed Bitex hubs accept the 11-speed freehub body swap without redishing. The rim hasn't moved. The end caps haven't moved. So the rim is still centered. And there is no fouling on the spokes or the chain stay with a 25-12 cassette. That is only one example. True, the chain line may be a little different than you get by machining the freehub, but it still works too well for me to care. Maybe their 11-speed bodies are modified to snug up more to the flange. I dunno. Real-life experience!
Most that I have run into I can machine off the freehub body and viola - 11 speed. No redishing, etc.
Aftrer writing this I had to do an 11 speed swap on a White industries hub. The freehub has different bearing locations and axle endcap spacings. I was missing the NDS endcap but was able to machine a 10 speed one into it. That one requires re-dishing.
Absolutely every wheel and situation is different but it isn't that hard to figure out.
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01-10-17, 12:56 PM
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Like I said every situation is different. On the bitex they don't change anything on their freehub body. They just machined down the other 1.8mm for you. Nothing else moves. They had enough of a spacing on their flanges to begin with that there isn't any intereference.
Most that I have run into I can machine off the freehub body and viola - 11 speed. No redishing, etc.
Aftrer writing this I had to do an 11 speed swap on a White industries hub. The freehub has different bearing locations and axle endcap spacings. I was missing the NDS endcap but was able to machine a 10 speed one into it. That one requires re-dishing.
Absolutely every wheel and situation is different but it isn't that hard to figure out.
Most that I have run into I can machine off the freehub body and viola - 11 speed. No redishing, etc.
Aftrer writing this I had to do an 11 speed swap on a White industries hub. The freehub has different bearing locations and axle endcap spacings. I was missing the NDS endcap but was able to machine a 10 speed one into it. That one requires re-dishing.
Absolutely every wheel and situation is different but it isn't that hard to figure out.
01-14-17, 06:14 PM
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If it helps, I have tried both methods above, and both work great in their own way.
Another note: for most 10 speed zipp hubs, milling 1.8mm off the base of the zipp AL freehub is not such a good idea, there are more than a few accounts of riders that have done this and then the freehub cracks soon afterwards. But YMMV ...
Greg @ dsw
01-15-17, 06:19 PM
#32
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That's good to know, as it explains why the Bitex 11-speed bodies work so well on hubs that were originally set up for 10-speed. So $40 for the new freehub body seems like a pretty good deal compared to the cost and aggravation to a normal bike enthusiast of getting one machined. Thanks for the information.
01-17-17, 07:26 AM
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If all they did was machine 1.8mm off an aluminum freehub, I'd try my hand with a file (or dremel) on my 10 speed one before putting down $40.
07-13-17, 02:57 PM
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Last edited by TheSame; 07-13-17 at 03:00 PM.
07-23-17, 06:08 PM
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going forward the new 11 speed Shimano Ultegra R8000 11-34 cassette will be 10 speed hub compatible. You won't need to file down, swap out cassette bodies or re-dish etc
07-23-17, 09:43 PM
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Just got to BikeHubStore.com and navigate to accessories or parts. Whatever.
07-24-17, 08:38 AM
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Good solution if you want a 34t. For me. The all the large gearing gaps on a 11-34 would annoy me. I'm running a 12-28t. I used to run an 11-28t, but it's missing a 16t. So I switched to 12-28t (drops the 11t for 16t). I rarely use the 11t. The 16t makes the main range of the cassette that I use super tight. this is just what works better for me.
07-24-17, 08:50 AM
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probably because smaller innermost cogs would have spoke clearance issues. It sounds like they are now going to use a design similar to their 11spd mountain bike cassettes.
Last edited by noodle soup; 07-24-17 at 08:54 AM.
07-24-17, 07:55 PM
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As I understand it they needed a bigger cog to make it concave enough to clear most hubs.
That's pretty awesome. Wonder why shimano is only doing it for the 11-34?
Good solution if you want a 34t. For me. The all the large gearing gaps on a 11-34 would annoy me. I'm running a 12-28t. I used to run an 11-28t, but it's missing a 16t. So I switched to 12-28t (drops the 11t for 16t). I rarely use the 11t. The 16t makes the main range of the cassette that I use super tight. this is just what works better for me.
Good solution if you want a 34t. For me. The all the large gearing gaps on a 11-34 would annoy me. I'm running a 12-28t. I used to run an 11-28t, but it's missing a 16t. So I switched to 12-28t (drops the 11t for 16t). I rarely use the 11t. The 16t makes the main range of the cassette that I use super tight. this is just what works better for me.
07-25-17, 02:27 PM
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08-08-17, 02:16 PM
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That's pretty awesome. Wonder why shimano is only doing it for the 11-34?
Good solution if you want a 34t. For me. The all the large gearing gaps on a 11-34 would annoy me. I'm running a 12-28t. I used to run an 11-28t, but it's missing a 16t. So I switched to 12-28t (drops the 11t for 16t). I rarely use the 11t. The 16t makes the main range of the cassette that I use super tight. this is just what works better for me.
Good solution if you want a 34t. For me. The all the large gearing gaps on a 11-34 would annoy me. I'm running a 12-28t. I used to run an 11-28t, but it's missing a 16t. So I switched to 12-28t (drops the 11t for 16t). I rarely use the 11t. The 16t makes the main range of the cassette that I use super tight. this is just what works better for me.
It was so awesome to resurrect my old 10 speed wheels! I will be ordering a couple more for my old carbon race wheels.
IMG_0172 by George Vargas, on Flickr 
IMG_0173 by George Vargas, on Flickr
IMG_0174 by George Vargas, on Flickr
IMG_0175 by George Vargas, on FlickrLet me know if I can help acquire these cassettes for you.
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09-20-17, 10:00 AM
#42
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I received the first of the Ultegra CS-HG800-11 (11 speed) Cassettes available. I installed it on my 10 speed Chris King hubs (a new 11 speed hub body not available for this model from CK) It works fantastic!
It was so awesome to resurrect my old 10 speed wheels! I will be ordering a couple more for my old carbon race wheels. ......
It was so awesome to resurrect my old 10 speed wheels! I will be ordering a couple more for my old carbon race wheels. ......
09-20-17, 11:01 AM
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I received the first of the Ultegra CS-HG800-11 (11 speed) Cassettes available. I installed it on my 10 speed Chris King hubs (a new 11 speed hub body not available for this model from CK) It works fantastic!
It was so awesome to resurrect my old 10 speed wheels! I will be ordering a couple more for my old carbon race wheels.
IMG_0172 by George Vargas, on Flickr
IMG_0173 by George Vargas, on Flickr
IMG_0174 by George Vargas, on Flickr
IMG_0175 by George Vargas, on Flickr
Let me know if I can help acquire these cassettes for you.
Disclaimer : Authorized Shimano Dealer
It was so awesome to resurrect my old 10 speed wheels! I will be ordering a couple more for my old carbon race wheels.
IMG_0172 by George Vargas, on Flickr IMG_0173 by George Vargas, on FlickrIMG_0174 by George Vargas, on FlickrIMG_0175 by George Vargas, on FlickrLet me know if I can help acquire these cassettes for you.
Disclaimer : Authorized Shimano Dealer
09-20-17, 06:07 PM
#45
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Nope, you missed nothing. The 'new' Ultegra 11-34 is just the same old MTB (probably XT level) 11 speed cassette which due to the large inside cog allows for it to fit on 10 speed freehubs and not interfere with any spokes. I'm sure it has new branding and all but this cassette in and of itself isn't allowing anything that Shimano 11 speed MTB cassettes haven't allowed since their inception. The real 'new' thing is an Ultegra RD rated for a 34T large cog, which means it can probably handle a 40T with Shimano's conservative specs.
09-21-17, 04:59 AM
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True. But, I ride both a 10s and 11s bike. Honestly, if 11s were never invented, I could care less. I notice no difference in the riding experience. To me, running 10 cogs with 11 speed spacing is the ticket for a 10s Shimano wheelset and also allows running a 10s Shimano wheelset on a Campy 11s bike because for all intents spacing is the same between Campy and Shimano 11s.
09-21-17, 05:01 AM
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Great point about how a monster cog placed inboard can be run closer to the hub center because the diameter of the cog is farther for the angled spokes.
09-21-17, 05:05 AM
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1. Every wheel and hub is a different scenario. What works for one may or may not work on another.
2. Most/many 10 speed wheels can be converted to work with 11 speed road cassettes. It simply requires machining 1.8mm off the shoulder of the freehub body.
3. Ones that won't work for this= ones where they moved that shoulder in so tight to the right flange that there is either not enough room/shoulder left to remove, or that by doing so the largest cog on the cassette is going to run into the drive side spokes.
4. Shimano 11 speed mtb cassettes use the shorter freehub body (8/9/10) because it's a mtb cassette. The largest cog is usually 32 or larger so it easily clears the spokes because of the bracing angle on the drive side. SRAM decided against that and created their XD driver.
5. Re-dishing is required if the conversion to 11 includes a freehub swap and endcap or spacer swap that actually adjusts the centerline of the axle slightly to accommodate the 1.8mm difference. While re-dishing is a quick process I don't blame Zipp for suggesting it should be done in house. If I had a dollar for every time a shop or rider thought they could easily or quickly true something only for it eventually to end up back with me because they messed up the tension balance of the wheel at the same time.....well wait a minute I usually get a dollar for every time that happens...nevermind.
My $0.02. Conversion cassettes = a waste of time. The only reason to use one would be if the following was true:
1. You had an amazing wheel that was just quite irreplaceable.
2. That wheel did not have the ability to have 1.8mm machined off the freehub body.
3. There were no parts available (11 speed freehub conversion option).
4. Even though there wasn't enough room to machine the 1.8mm - by some miracle the largest cog on said conversion cassette is still larges enough to clear spokes - highly unlikely as building the hub like this to begin with was done to exploit the addded flange spacing making the spokes closer as well. Usually involves having the largest cog be at LEAST a 28 or larger.
If you match number 1 in there then its usually because it's a special purpose wheel. Usually that special purpose wheel is going to be a race wheel. In that case the cassette needed is usually a 25 cog largest which would normally run into problems.
The ONLY situation I can think of where I would use a conversion cassette: Alchemy hubs. They are the shiz and Jeremy is out of business and doesn't have any more 11 speed freehub conversions for ORC v1. I have about 3 or 4 of these hubs sitting on my desk no longer having homes. A shame. Such a stellar design. We've been squeaking out some life on our team issued ones as there are still riders on 10 but each year that gets smaller and this season seems to be the season 10 dies in our world of racing.
2. Most/many 10 speed wheels can be converted to work with 11 speed road cassettes. It simply requires machining 1.8mm off the shoulder of the freehub body.
3. Ones that won't work for this= ones where they moved that shoulder in so tight to the right flange that there is either not enough room/shoulder left to remove, or that by doing so the largest cog on the cassette is going to run into the drive side spokes.
4. Shimano 11 speed mtb cassettes use the shorter freehub body (8/9/10) because it's a mtb cassette. The largest cog is usually 32 or larger so it easily clears the spokes because of the bracing angle on the drive side. SRAM decided against that and created their XD driver.
5. Re-dishing is required if the conversion to 11 includes a freehub swap and endcap or spacer swap that actually adjusts the centerline of the axle slightly to accommodate the 1.8mm difference. While re-dishing is a quick process I don't blame Zipp for suggesting it should be done in house. If I had a dollar for every time a shop or rider thought they could easily or quickly true something only for it eventually to end up back with me because they messed up the tension balance of the wheel at the same time.....well wait a minute I usually get a dollar for every time that happens...nevermind.
My $0.02. Conversion cassettes = a waste of time. The only reason to use one would be if the following was true:
1. You had an amazing wheel that was just quite irreplaceable.
2. That wheel did not have the ability to have 1.8mm machined off the freehub body.
3. There were no parts available (11 speed freehub conversion option).
4. Even though there wasn't enough room to machine the 1.8mm - by some miracle the largest cog on said conversion cassette is still larges enough to clear spokes - highly unlikely as building the hub like this to begin with was done to exploit the addded flange spacing making the spokes closer as well. Usually involves having the largest cog be at LEAST a 28 or larger.
If you match number 1 in there then its usually because it's a special purpose wheel. Usually that special purpose wheel is going to be a race wheel. In that case the cassette needed is usually a 25 cog largest which would normally run into problems.
The ONLY situation I can think of where I would use a conversion cassette: Alchemy hubs. They are the shiz and Jeremy is out of business and doesn't have any more 11 speed freehub conversions for ORC v1. I have about 3 or 4 of these hubs sitting on my desk no longer having homes. A shame. Such a stellar design. We've been squeaking out some life on our team issued ones as there are still riders on 10 but each year that gets smaller and this season seems to be the season 10 dies in our world of racing.
Last edited by Campag4life; 09-21-17 at 08:04 AM.
09-21-17, 05:09 AM
#49
Senior Member
The difference for me is that I get a sweet 12-23 10 speed cassette plus a 25T cog with 11 speed. Or a reasonably spaced 12-27 10 speed cassette plus a bailout 29T cog.
09-21-17, 05:09 AM
#50
Voice of the Industry
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YES - this works. I did mine as follows:
You would need:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdJB00bZ9wI
You would need:
- 11-28
- A 12T Lock Ring
- A hub spacer for an 11s hub so you can use a 10s Cassette.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdJB00bZ9wI