AzTallRider

I'm looking for feedback on some thoughts I'm having as I prep for my first Cat 4 RR, and first USAC RR of any kind. Here in Phoenix, we don't have a lot of sanctioned RRs, and so we take advantage of any ride event, and, for better or worse, any timed event is treated as a full-fledged race. I've done a few of those, and, after either pre-riding or pre-driving the course, determined my key factors. As a big guy (6/6";195#), in my first season of training and racing, those key factors have been the same:

A. Get to the front, knowing I'll drift back on the key climb (all of these have had that one really key climb) then dig deep to hold onto the pack as we go uphill.

B. If dropped, find company and keep pushing as hard as possible.

This race is a bit different, because (1) it is at high altitude (huff puff), (2) it is three laps of 17 miles, with only 531' of gain each lap, and (3) it will be a relatively small field. I haven't driven the course yet (it's a fair distance away) but I entered it (https://ridewithgps.com/routes/396949) and I believe the key for me will still be holding on during the climbs, which are early in each lap. I should be able to hang with these guys on flats and downhills, if I can keep from being dropped on the climbs. At this point in my training, I can usually hold on for shorter and steeper hills, but the long grinds give me problems, and I'm working really hard on improving this part of my riding. Hill repeats, A Group rides with that type of hill, etc.

So my question is this. Is it worth a shot to convince one or two others (especially other big guys) to try and get off the front and build a lead that might keep us in the pack at the end of the climb? And setting this race aside, is that a viable approach in general? "Hey, all you big guys, you wanna work together to get a cushion before the climb?"

I'm also thinking that, when I hold the group on the first lap's climb , I should join any break attempt, for the same reason outlined above. I'm disinclined to sit at the back waiting to be dropped, even though I can hear my coach saying "Sit In, Sit In". Most fun I've had so far, in a heavy wind crit, was when I said "F... it" and just took off as we turned into the wind. Got me a third. Then again, this isn't a crit.

Thoughts?

pjcampbell

I would think you'll just power through that. Its only 2-3% max?

jsutkeepspining

breakaway? you're 195 lbs you should be able to hold off a cat 4 pack.

mollusk

If there are any places on the course that are flat and have a crosswind you should gutter all those skinny climbers and make them pay there. Don't make the race revolve solely around where they do well. Turn the tables on them.

AzTallRider

It's the type of hill where, in past experience, the pack often kicks it up maybe 1 mph more than I can sustain for an extended time. It's the area where an attack is most likely to drop people. This may be short enough (~4mi) where I won't fade so much - probably depends on how hard everyone decides to push it. Some of the guys have cabins up there, and ride a lot at altitude - they may just ride away from the rest of us.

AzTallRider

Hmmm... sounds like good, soul-crushing, fun. Definately something to consider.

tombailey

Is it long gentle climbs as suggested above? If so my experience (as a 6'6" 220lber) is that that type of climb is surviable at a constant power. The thing that really hurts is the accelerations. Anything steeper and longer than a few hundred yards and I'm dropped as soon as someone goes. If it's that slight gradient then you'll be going pretty fast, therefore drafting will still save you some effort. I therefore, personally, wouldn't try to go off the front and expose myself to the wind and hill. As a coach I concur with your coach - sit in and if you are still there at the end use your strengths.

jsutkeepspining

are you drafting? at that low of a grade, weight isnt the real factor, its more about being aero and hidden.

brian416

The big guys around here employ strategy A, but its kind of dangerous IMO. They fly to the front of the pack and then come backwards through the middle forcing everyone to avoid running into them

Hermes

What are the features of the course that may differentiate the racers? My experience with road races with an uphill start is that all hell breaks out immediately. And you have a 100 field size with center line rule. So key to the start is positioning and being warmed up and ready for a very hard effort. Since the hill is easy, it will not favor climbers per se. The other aspect is wind direction. Wind into the face of the peloton on the hill neutralizes the climbers. If it is at your back, they will try to get to the front and get away.

The other interesting feature is point 8 on your map. It looks like a very tight turn around or right hand turn. Position coming into this in a large pack will be important. The first ones through will drill it on the way out gapping the latter part of the pack.

Are you doing just the road race or the omnium?

brianappleby

If I see a bunch of big guys take off before a major climb, I'm inclined to let them go and the rest of the pack usually is too. That said, cat 4's (in my experience) are terrified of letting anything get away. You'll have to muscle your way off the front, which may be more trouble than it's worth. That said, if you can get a big enough gap that you crest even a few seconds before the little guys, you may be able to build a decent lead in the following miles.

AzTallRider

A lot to respond to... really appreciate the feedback

Yep, the problem is if the pack accelerates up the rise. Maintaining a steady (slower) pace means I'll lose the draft, be behind at the crest, and they'll be gone.

Over time, I've developed decent "hide instincts". If I can get out of the wind, I'm going to do it. It's one of the lessons big guys learn: get in the drops early, and hide every chance you get. And I don't feel an obligation to pull in a race, unless I have done something to imply that I will.

Maybe I'm being inconsiderate/dangerous, but I don't have a problem with that so long as there are no sudden moves. In a race, you have to, and want to be, passing people.

That's what I've been thinking. I'll need a much better warmup than I normally have.

We won't be anywhere close to the max field. I'm expecting somewhere in the 30 range.

I have no clue on what to expect wind-wise, and I should. I'll email my friend who has a cabin up there and has raced this every year. He should also be able to tell me how cold it will be at the start.

Another reason to stay near the front if I can. I'll check that out when I pre-drive it.

I'm doing the omnium - 40 minute crit the next morning. My first back-to-back race experience. Heck, as you know, almost everything is still a first for me. But I know a bit more of what to expect in the crit. I'll either be near the front, or will have blown up and been dropped. The front is one heck of a lot more fun, and I won't hesitate to make something happen.

I hear you. Maybe I should yell out "Us big guys are going to get a head start on the hill. Don't worry, you'll catch us on the way up. Just relax and chill for a bit."

tallmantim

Hi - I'm 6'5" and 215# - 195# certainly doesn't sound very heavy to me!

;-)

In my experience - although I have done either flat, short pinch climbs or longer climbs in a race rather than what you're talking about - I generally try to dig deep to keep with the front bunch, as people may be coming backward causing gaps etc. I am comfortable to let the front group go a little near the top of the climb, as I know that I will be able to rejoin them as I obviously have an advantage on the downhill.

But as has already been said here and by your coach, sit in. People are unlikely to kill it on the hill in the first or second lap, and if they do (particularly if it is windy) they will just kill themselves. It is likely to be the third lap where you need to be really attentive - a small guy who can TT well can get away there and kill the race (as happened in my last race with a hill).

Good luck with it!

Nate552

Flip it.

AzTallRider

Already done...

AzTallRider

Hermes, apparently every year but one has had strong winds, always from the West-Southwest. Last year was the worst. That's a lot of cross-wind. My friend says the 7 miles after the hill are really tough, wind-wise. It will go from right front before that hard right-hander, to left front afterwards. Based on past experience, I expect a lot of people won't take the crosswinds into account as much they should, and they'll just line up behind the wheel in front of them. But then, maybe I'm 'misunderestimating' them, and there will be a sweetly rotating echelon, lined up like migrating geese.

topflightpro

I think you are over thinking this too much.

In my experience, lower level fields, i.e. 4/5 fields, tend to attack hills at the bottom, and the guys up front inevitably die about half way up any sustained climb. At that point, the back of the field nearly crashes into the front as everyone hits their brakes. Additionally, once over the top, the field tends to slow as everyone has to recover.

The key to surviving is to get up front and put forth a hard, but sustainable effort and hold it. If the field is passing you, increase your effort and hang on. If you are hurting, remind yourself that everyone else is hurting and you will have time to recover once you get over the top.

Psimet2001 

My first response was very War Games-esque, "The appropriate strategy is not to play".

One bit of advice - just stay in contact when climbing. One thing midwestern racers always report and notice about races in the SouthWest if that everyone races on the climbs but that's it. They essentially don't know how to race on the flats on in the wind. So stick it on the climbs as best as possible then turn the screws in between. Gutter them and make the skinny guys pay.

MDcatV

is your objective to win the race or is it to finish with the pack. these are two entirely different ends and the means to each varies.

objective to win: go early, really early, when everyone thinks youre nuts. hit whatever the hill is and ride up it at your pace, keep going over the top, repeat 3x. if you blow, you blow and bow out knowing that you gave everything you physically had to win, that you had a strategy and employed it, you just didnt have the goods.

objective to finish with the pack: sit in, let everyone else chase everything that goes anywhere, coast as much as possible, position yourself near the front at bottom of the climb, follow up and over it, get to the finish with a group and fight it out. you might get dropped and you'll know that you did what you could to race someone else's race. you might win and you'll know that you ate off of others' plates before your own. you'll probably finish some non-descript placing and write pk in your log book.

pick whichever you think will work best for you.

Smallguy

I'm a big guy at 197 and 5'10 and I struggle in the hills too

my last race was relatively hilly but not 7 mile climbs

approaching each climb I slowly moved up over the final kilometers.

trying to time it so I was upfront with the guys I knew could climb well.... I worked to hold there wheels but knew that there was also a decent after the cimb where I could catch one if I was popped off. The strategy worked ok for me and I finished good for me in this type of race.

I was eventually popped but I tihkn moving up slowly is a smarter approach than gunning it up and fading half way up the climb.... if the pack is large and you can be close to the front but not doing work before the climb you have allot of room to drift back. If you appear like you're trying to take off someone might decide to push the pace before the climb but if you can move up gradually it's less of a tip off

hopefully if you're popped you can catch up on a decent or there will be a enough people willing form a chase group you can get back on

I couldn't get a chase group when I got popped unfortunately

AzTallRider

I've seen this as well. Everyone says "Here's the hill, let's go." and they accelerate away, and definately slow it down as the grind sets in. Unfortunately, the last couple of long versions of this, I blew up trying to stay attached, and they didn't fade enough for me to catch them at or after the crest.

When I talk about getting up front, this is what I'm talking about... being at the front before the climb starts, and trying to hold on so I'm still there at the crest. Evening out the effort may be a good approach. If I know matching the acceleration will blow me up, then I could back off to a just barely sustainable output.

AzTallRider

One huge advantage of using a PM, is that it tells you how much you are backing off after a climb. I definitely plan to just stay in contact on the hills, and if I can do that, crank it up on the flats and downhills. Just to make sure this newb understands the term, "guttering" means taking a track so the only way someone can draft you in the crosswind is to ride on the sidewalk?

topflightpro

The PM, in this instance, is not an advantage. If you're tracking your numbers, then you are not racing, you are riding. Racing requires going out and putting out efforts you don't know you can put out and trying to keep pace with others. I strongly urge you to tape over your power meter when racing.

AzTallRider

I'm torn, because I'd like to show I can hang with these guys, but at the same time, taking a passive approach and aiming to be pack fill just doesn't sit well. As I sit here pondering my gut feelings, they are telling me to put a stake in the ground, and make the decision, now, that I will always be "in it to win it".

Racer Ex 

Well, I don't think anybody's going to have doubts where I fall on this issue.

The key to any successful break is when and how you go, something that few 4/5 guys get right. Wim Van Est put it best:

I like to attack when I'm hurting. Because if I'm hurting the others must be dying.

If there's a lot of heavy breathing in the pack, it's a good time to go.