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Highly diluted bleach solution on bike?

Old 03-29-20, 09:55 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by August West
1.54% concentration
I like to work in metric units.
Normal bleach is between 5.25% and 6% sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl)... let's say 6%.

100 ml of 6% NaOCl contains 6 grams of NaOCl (definition of a 6% solution)
1 ml contains 0.06 grams of NaOCl
59.25 ml (a quarter cup) contains 3.6 grams of NaOCl

Now take those 3.6 grams of NaOCl and dissolve in 3785 ml (a gallon) of water.
3.6 / 3785 x 100 = 0.1% NaOCl

Someone check my math.
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Old 03-30-20, 12:24 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by jim dandy
NO BLEACH ..... ISO Alcohol ....
JD
Originally Posted by SalsaShark
Just use rubbing alcohol instead
That's wasteful in the current situation and unnecessary for cleaning bikes. Plain ol' grease-cutting dish soap and hot water is fine.

Rubbing and 90+ per cent isopropyl alcohol have been unavailable in my area for weeks.

For awhile there was some "rubbing alcohol" available as a mix of water, colorants (red or green dye) with Epsom salts, capsaicin, wintergreen, etc. Less than 35% alcohol, useless as a disinfectant. Even that stuff has been gone for a couple of weeks.

The shortage was so extensive a couple of local distilleries switched from making whisky to making disinfectant specifically for medical facilities and few select recipients. There has been a total absence of hand disinfectant, alcohol, surgical gloves and masks. A friend who is an EMT has been issued one surgical mask PER WEEK. For direct patient contact dealing with emergencies -- accident injuries and serious sudden onset illnesses.

Heck, I had a box of 25 surgical masks from a decade ago when I did patient care, along with gloves. I didn't need to hoard them for no particular reason or in hopes of black market profiteering. I've mostly used them for outdoor bike rides in bitterly cold, dry weather. I bagged up a few along with gloves for the maintenance crew in my apartment complex because they come into direct contact daily with many elderly and disabled tenants.

I've always kept enough of most household and basic health care supplies on hand to last a month or longer. But I'm down to a few ounces left of 50% isopropyl alcohol, which isn't really concentrated enough to use as a proper disinfectant.
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Old 03-30-20, 07:24 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by canklecat
That's wasteful in the current situation and unnecessary for cleaning bikes. Plain ol' grease-cutting dish soap and hot water is fine.
I keep 90% ISO in my garage for cleaning brake tracks, disc rotors, bearing surfaces, getting grease residue off of parts/tools...etc. A bottle lasts a very long time, probably over a year. I could probably disinfect 25 entire bikes with a shop rag and a few ounces of the stuff. I am not suggesting that the OP go out and buy the last bottle on the shelf at the pharmacy to clean his bike, but if he has a bottle in the cabinet, it would be ideal for the task. Just because a bunch of idiots go out and hoard supplies that might be actually needed by a small percentage of the population during a crisis, doesn't mean i should not utilize the item i already have in my posession to sucessfully complete a task in which it excells. I could also argue that it would be just as wasteful to use soap for the task, especially when you start wasting good clean water along with the soap.....save that stuff for washing our hands where it is really needed!

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Old 03-30-20, 08:19 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by SalsaShark
I keep 90% ISO in my garage...
"Denatured" alcohol, which is ethanol with 5-10% methanol added, is also good for killing viruses. NB: the methanol is added to "denature" the ethanol by making it POISONOUS to humans, so don't drink it!
Denatured alcohol is available by the gallon from a hardware store. It's also known as "burning" or "fuel" alcohol, since it burns well.
The weakness of alcohols for disinfection purposes is that they evaporate quickly. For some bacterial pathogens, a contact time of 5-10 minutes is necessary, and unless replenished, alcohols would be long-gone. I'm not sure about viruses, but the recommendation for hand sanitizers seems to be about 30 seconds of exposure. Hand sanitizers contain other ingredients (aloe?) that serve to slow the evaporation rate.
It's probably easier to use soap and water!
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Old 03-30-20, 09:19 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by sweeks
I doubt this information came from Johns Hopkins Hospital because of a number of factual errors. A virus is not a "protein molecule". See VIRUS STRUCTURE. Also, DNA is not a protein. There are "DNA" viruses and there are "RNA" viruses. Their status as "living organisms" is somewhat murky; see below. If you want to post a link to the "Johns Hopkins" source, I am prepared to eat my words.



Listerine is *not* 65% alcohol. "Ethanol, which is toxic to bacteria at concentrations of 40%, is present in concentrations of 21.6% in the flavored product and 26.9% in the original gold Listerine Antiseptic."(Reference)


Antibodies are how we are protected against viruses. They are why we usually only get most viral infections once. They are the basis of the mechanism of action of most vaccines. See THIS.
*Antibiotics* are not effective against viruses. Viruses aren't "alive" in the normal sense, but neither are they "dead". They can reproduce and evolve, but they require a living cell to complete their life cycle; you could think of them as parasites of a sort. (VIRUS)

There are too many errors in the above information to have Johns Hopkins as their credible source. Sorry.
I agree that there seems to be something hinky with the information. I originally thought the weird language was just due to cut and paste errors. It seems to have some kernels of information but also errors as you have pointed out.

Originally Posted by sweeks
You could keep the bike in the basement and wipe the contact points (well, saddle and hand grips, brake and shift levers) with anti-microbial wipes, rubbing alcohol, your dilute bleach solution (see below). Then go outside and ride, where you are safer than you are indoors with other people around. On return, wash your hands after touching any doorknobs.
I think you’ve missed the key points of profjmb’s problem. The way I read it, he doesn’t have a basement. The bike is in a common storage area and the concern is that others could have come in contact with it. He also can’t go outside. profjmb may be limited to staying inside due to his wife’s immune problems or due to “stay at home” orders but for whatever reason, he can’t go outside.


Originally Posted by sweeks
1% is way more than necessary. Rutgers University has a page on the best ways to kill coronaviruses in your home: LINK. They call for a quarter cup of bleach in a gallon of water. I'm too lazy to calculate the concentration, but it's quite a bit less than 1%.
Sanitizing, disinfecting and sterilizing are 3 different levels of cleaning and remove pathogens to different levels of concentration. Sanitizing is only removing about 50% of the pathogens. Disinfecting removes up to 90%. Sterilizing is complete removal. The amount of bleach in the Rutgers link you provided is enough to sanitize. About 1% is enough to disinfect. Sterilization takes full strength household bleach solutions.

There is also an issue with contact time. Simply wiping something down is pretty much a feel good action which does little to no good. There isn’t enough sodium hypochlorite in contact with the surface for long enough to do much good. Bleach (and other sanitizers) need minutes to work. Most people give it seconds. The reason that the CDC (and others) suggest soap is because you can use more of it and it stays on longer. Here’s what they have to say about soap vs sanitizer. The quote in that link that is most applicable is this

Although alcohol-based hand sanitizers can inactivate many types of microbes very effectively when used correctly, people may not use a large enough volume of the sanitizers or may wipe it off before it has dried.
That’s where I was going about the amount of bleach that could be used for cleaning vs the amount of soap and water that can be used. profjmb can slop on as much soap and water and leave it there for as long as he likes in and quantities far in excess of what can be safely used with bleach.

Originally Posted by August West
1/4 cup = 2 oz.
1 gal = 128 oz.
128 + 2 = 130 oz. total solution

(2/130)*100 = 1.54% concentration
Nope. C1V1=C2V2 where C= concentration and V= volume of solution.

Originally Posted by sweeks
I like to work in metric units.
Normal bleach is between 5.25% and 6% sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl)... let's say 6%.

100 ml of 6% NaOCl contains 6 grams of NaOCl (definition of a 6% solution)
1 ml contains 0.06 grams of NaOCl
59.25 ml (a quarter cup) contains 3.6 grams of NaOCl

Now take those 3.6 grams of NaOCl and dissolve in 3785 ml (a gallon) of water.
3.6 / 3785 x 100 = 0.1% NaOCl

Someone check my math.
You took the long way around but you came to the same point. C1= 6%, V1=60 mL, V2=3700 mL. Solve for C2. Or [(6%)*60]/3700= 0.1%

But, again, that’s only the concentrations. The sanitizing “equation” has to include the kinetics of the oxidation reactions that destroys the virus. The kinetics are also going to depend on the viral load.
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Old 03-30-20, 09:58 AM
  #31  
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Found a site that seemed to know what they are talking about.
https://www.infectioncontroltoday.co...virus-outbreak

From that source:
"Human coronaviruses can remain active on surfaces such as metal, glass, or plastic for up to 9 days after exposure. The best way to deal with that problem is by cleaning those surfaces with a solution that’s 62% to 72% ethanol, .5% hydrogen peroxide, or 0.1% sodium hypochlorite within 1 minute of contamination, according to investigators with University Medicine Greifswald and Ruhr University Bochum in Germany whose study ran as an article in press in the Journal of Hospital Infection (JHI)."

The actual article is "Persistence of coronaviruses on inanimate surfaces and their inactivation with biocidal agents, G. Kampf, D. Todtb, S. Pfaenderb, E. Steinmannb, Journal of Hospital Infection, 2020"

My comments:
The Chlorox site recommends 1/2 cup of Chlorox disinfecting bleach per gallon. The product starts as a 4-9% solution of sodium hypochlorite, so this dilution is 4 ounces (1/2 cup) per 128 ounces (1 gallon = 4 quarts = 8 pints = 128 ounces). This gives you a 0.15% solution - about that recommended below. [NOTE CORRECTION HERE 3/31/20] But then again, Chlorox is in the business of selling bleach, using the higher concentration probably gives you as good or better viricidal performance, and anytime a layperson consumer starts to mix things I get a little nervous about them doing it right. You're certainly ok with 1/2 cup in a gallon. Probably good with 1/4 cup in a gallon though [MAYBE: this is 0.075%

Isopropanol did reduce viral titer, but was not as effective as ethanol. Note that this is for 70% ethanol or better, which is 140 proof. So if you have neutral grain spirits (190 proof) or USP pure ethanol (200 proof) you're good. Interestingly, I think I may have some of that (leftover from my son's college days).

The article notes that a quaternary ammonium (as in Lysol) compound of 0.2% was not effective at all, but was very effective at concentrations of 0.05%. Not sure what to make of that. I suspect that that may be a mistake but I think I'd use bleach if I had disinfecting to do. Of course, Lysol thinks its products are effective, and their assertions are not at odds with EPA recommendations. See here, for their video.

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Old 03-30-20, 10:09 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
The kinetics are also going to depend on the viral load.
Kind of, depending upon definitions. If "V" is the viral load in a certain volume, and we add a specific volume of sanitizing solution of concentration S, then assuming first order kinetics you get

rate of reduction in V with respect to time equals k times V times S, that is:

dV/dt = rate = k * V * S

So the overall rate of virus destruction is proportional to the amount of virus present. I'm guessing that this works for bleach, and possibly for quaternary ammonium compounds (dilute solutions that react with the virus particles as describe above), but not for ethanol and isopropanol (strong, 70% solutions that work via bulk physical chemistry, probably by "dissolving" the virus lipid coat). This seems consistent with the data reported (see the NEJM article cited in my next post).

But generally we're interested in fractional rate of virus change. For this, the reporting is most usefully done in log terms. This is easily done:

dV/dt /V = d log(V)/dat = log rate = k * S

Assuming S is much larger than V and only reacts with virus, S remains pretty constant. If you want to get fancier, you can calculate a half-life. Solving differential equation, above yields

log V/Vo = -k*S*t

log(0.5) = -k * S * thalf

thalf = ln(2)/(kS)

So, doubling the sterilizing solution concentration S should cut the half-life of Virus particles in half. Again, the equations above that use the concetnration S of sanitizer probably work for dilute solutions (bleach, quaternary ammonium compounds). I suspect that it breaks down for stuff that requires strong solutions to be effective at all, eg. ethanol and isopropanol. For the latter, use a 70% solution.

Last edited by WizardOfBoz; 03-30-20 at 11:55 AM. Reason: Corrected derivation
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Old 03-30-20, 11:12 AM
  #33  
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To the OPs point, if it were me, and the bike came in a cardboard box, I'd move it somewhere and then wash my hands. I'd let the box sit for a five days or so. Then I'd open it up and put the bike together, minding not to touch my face, and to wash hands before and after any breaks for meals, restroom, etc.

If it were an assembled bike, I'd put it somewhere warm and out of the way, and wash my hands. Let it sit for a few days. If I was really gonna obsess (and if you want to, go for it: these are scary times) I'd probably wipe it down with Lysol.

But the virus does spontaneously degrade (faster on cardboard than on plastic or glass, apparently). I searched for something more solid than my speculation and found it. Here is an analysis in the New England Journal of Medicine of how long the virus particles stay viable on different surfaces. The use a comparison of SARS-Cov2 (which is Covid19, the current pandemic) with SARS-Cov1, another nasty virus. Some my find it interesting.

It looks like the virus particle activity goes to undetectable levels on plastic and stainless after 4 days, and cardboard after 2 days, copper after 1 day. The cardboard data were "noisier" than for other surfaces, and so the authors recommended caution in using those data.
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Old 03-30-20, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz
It looks like the virus particle activity goes to undetectable levels on plastic and stainless after 4 days, and cardboard after 2 days, copper after 1 day. The cardboard data were "noisier" than for other surfaces, and so the authors recommended caution in using those data.
From what profjmb has said, the bike is in a common storage area and there is a concern that people may have been in contact with it. That means that any contaminant would be on the bare metal. I would suspect that the titanium dioxide surface isn’t conducive to viral growth, especially if exposed to UV light but that’s only a suspicion based on the use of titanium dioxide against other viruses and microbes. I wouldn’t say that the carbon bits or aluminum bits would react the same way.
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Old 03-30-20, 12:11 PM
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Ain't there some other household cleaning product that would work just fine for this purpose?

https://www.businessinsider.com/epa-...aning-products
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Old 03-30-20, 12:29 PM
  #36  
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I can't believe this conversation exists. Think of all of the other ways you can catch this disease. The bike should be the least of the worries. Of course, what do I know?
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Old 03-30-20, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
From what profjmb has said, the bike is in a common storage area and there is a concern that people may have been in contact with it. That means that any contaminant would be on the bare metal. I would suspect that the titanium dioxide surface isn’t conducive to viral growth, especially if exposed to UV light but that’s only a suspicion based on the use of titanium dioxide against other viruses and microbes. I wouldn’t say that the carbon bits or aluminum bits would react the same way.
Context is important. Thanks for pointing this out. One clarification: viruses don't grow. They need a host organism to replicate. The concern here is virion (viral particle) stability. The virion breaks down over time and becomes unable to infect.

But if the worry is that every day, people might touch or cough on the bike, then I think I'd probably wash it and wash my hands before riding it. And wash it outside, leaving the liquid on the bike for ten minutes or so, before drying it off (landlord is NOT gonna like the drips of bleach on the carpet, leading to your apartment!) and bringing it in. Bleach will definitely blast the virions. I THINK lysol would work too, and lysol claims its products destroy other viruses.

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Old 03-30-20, 02:31 PM
  #38  
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I'm guessing the goal is to disinfect the bike? I would recommend simply washing the bike with dish detergent, not for a dishwasher but for hand dish washing. The virus on the surface of the bike very similar to your hands is removed "mechanically" from the surface by the bubbles in the water / detergent mix. If you go over it with a soapy rag and rinse it and repeat you won't ruin the frame and you wont bring a virus ridden bike in the house.
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Old 03-30-20, 02:42 PM
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BTW, just saw the CDC page about cleaning products, and they recommend EPA approved disinfectants for Covid. This includes Lysol products with quaternary ammonium compounds (benzalkonium chloride).

CDC Page

EPA Disinfectants Page
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Old 03-30-20, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by August West
1/4 cup = 2 oz.
1 gal = 128 oz.
128 + 2 = 130 oz. total solution

(2/130)*100 = 1.54% concentration
1.54% would be true if the bleach was 100% active, but is not. The bleach used is a 6 percent solution, thus 1.54 needs to be multiply by 0.06 (6% divided by 100 is 0.06). The solution concentration is thus 0.09% (1.54*0.06).
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Old 03-30-20, 09:18 PM
  #41  
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FWIW, here are recommendations from the *actual* Johns Hopkins Medicine: LINK.
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Old 03-30-20, 09:28 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by sweeks
"Denatured" alcohol, which is ethanol with 5-10% methanol added, is also good for killing viruses. NB: the methanol is added to "denature" the ethanol by making it POISONOUS to humans, so don't drink it!
Denatured alcohol is available by the gallon from a hardware store. It's also known as "burning" or "fuel" alcohol, since it burns well.
The weakness of alcohols for disinfection purposes is that they evaporate quickly. For some bacterial pathogens, a contact time of 5-10 minutes is necessary, and unless replenished, alcohols would be long-gone. I'm not sure about viruses, but the recommendation for hand sanitizers seems to be about 30 seconds of exposure. Hand sanitizers contain other ingredients (aloe?) that serve to slow the evaporation rate.
It's probably easier to use soap and water!
Denatured alcohol is poisonous to humans and is also a poor disinfectant compared to other alcolols. Do not trust it to save you fron COVID-19.
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Old 03-30-20, 10:38 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by sweeks
"Denatured" alcohol, which is ethanol with 5-10% methanol added, is also good for killing viruses. NB: the methanol is added to "denature" the ethanol by making it POISONOUS to humans, so don't drink it!
Denatured alcohol is available by the gallon from a hardware store. It's also known as "burning" or "fuel" alcohol, since it burns well.
The weakness of alcohols for disinfection purposes is that they evaporate quickly. For some bacterial pathogens, a contact time of 5-10 minutes is necessary, and unless replenished, alcohols would be long-gone. I'm not sure about viruses, but the recommendation for hand sanitizers seems to be about 30 seconds of exposure. Hand sanitizers contain other ingredients (aloe?) that serve to slow the evaporation rate.
It's probably easier to use soap and water!
The US Code of Regulations lists 105 different substances that can be added to alcohol to denature it. Methanol is only one.

You are correct, however, in the need for longer contact time. Simply wiping with some kind of alcohol doesn’t do much. The concentration of the alcohol is also important. For 2-propanol, it has to be above 70% in order to disrupt the cell membrane.
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Old 03-30-20, 10:55 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by profjmb
Don't know if this is the right forum, but it seemed the best choice:

I'm going to bring a bike inside when my trainer arrives. (I'm not allowed outside for you know why.) My wife wants to wipe down the bike with a highly diluted bleach solution (4 teaspoons bleach per quart of water) and let it sit to dry before bringing it in. My bike is titanium, with carbon wheels. Is this going to harm the bike?
First of all, don't believe anyone who says you should use straight bleach instead of a diluted solution. Bleach solutions for sanitizing are very dilute (can't remember exactly, but very dilute.. what your wife recommends is probably correct).

Second, I might suggest you find some real expert guidelines for sanitizing hard surfaces rather than people like us. CDC guidelines will probably be the first thing that comes up if you do a web search.

If nobody but you has used or handled your bike and you're just bringing it inside, why sanitize it? Just clean it appropriate for bringing indoors.

I would do a quick sanitization of anything like a trainer I got shipped - using commonly available guidelines.
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Old 03-31-20, 05:04 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
The US Code of Regulations lists 105 different substances that can be added to alcohol to denature it. Methanol is only one.
That's amazing! Well, most of the denatured alcohol I've encountered has included methanol. Whatever is used, it makes the remainder, ethanol, unsuitable for human consumption... no liquor taxes!

Originally Posted by cyccommute
For 2-propanol, it has to be above 70% in order to disrupt the cell membrane.
Is that like the 2 Corinthians we hear about?
(Heh... it's been a long time since I used IUPAC nomenclature!)

Originally Posted by Camilo
If nobody but you has used or handled your bike and you're just bringing it inside, why sanitize it?
The OP is concerned that someone might have coughed on the bike. As unlikely as that seems, if it happened the virus could remain viable for several days.
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Old 03-31-20, 10:02 AM
  #46  
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10% bleach/distiled h2o ($.60 per gallon at Walmart) in a spray bottle, wipe down all surfaces, then do the same with just water, and then dry. Bleach kills on contact unlike alcohol and other disinfectants. The distilled water isn't neccesary, but will keep the minerals and other inpurities in water from potentially reacting with the bleach and causing stains on the Seven or Dogma . As a by the way, I didn't read about in on the InterWeb, I was a decontamination Team Leader while deployed in Africa. Everyone stay safe and healthy.
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Old 03-31-20, 10:07 AM
  #47  
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Isn't something like this purpose built for sanitizing surfaces.. 2 or 3 of these, wipe down the bike and you're good to go?

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Old 03-31-20, 10:44 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by profjmb
From the original poster: I appreciate all the replies so far. To clarify: no one is sick here. I am not allowed to ride outside, and I have accepted this fate. My wife has lupus, and she is also...anxious about germs. She is also scientifically sophisticated and is convincible. We live in a condo building with a basement, where my bike is. She is worried someone using the basement may have the virus, and so doesn't want me just to bring it inside. My take so far is:

1. for the highly diluted solution, there is little worry of damage to my (titanium) bike
2. there is also not much reason to prefer bleach to some other things like alcohol. (Regarding the National Geographic article arguing for soap and water, which I forwarded but did not read, she says it's about skin and won't disinfect metal.)
3. I'm in Chicago and it may be rainy, so I don't want to leave my bike outside for 2 days

cyccommute, since you have been singled out as an expert, given the above, what would you do?
I know your pain man, my wife has Kidney failure awaiting transplant, and zero immune system. Keep mama safe! sometimes the mental stability is just as important, dont stress her needlessly....as i'm sure you already now.
JAG
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Old 03-31-20, 10:48 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
Isn't something like this purpose built for sanitizing surfaces.. 2 or 3 of these, wipe down the bike and you're good to go?

But try finding them in a store. We always had bleach in our house to use for a chlorine bath by the eczema sufferers. Eczema frequently gets infected with Staph, and that in turns makes you itch even more. A bleach bath (very dilute) would kill the staph in theory. I also used to use it to sanitize the beer making equipment, but I switched to a product called StarSan. Unfortunately, StarSan is specifically NOT effective against viruses, but we don't worry about viruses infecting beer, just bacteria and wild yeasts. We used starsan in a spray bottle for our old tile counters occasionally, but stopped when we got new quartz counters as it wasn't on the recommended cleaning list (only soap and detergents).

But back to my earlier recommendation, a soapy wash with warm water, maybe letting the soapy water remain on the bike for a bit, would seem to be an easy, effective solution. And it is one that is recommended by lots of bike people for cleaning your bike anyway. If you wish to be extra vigilant, use more soap than you may for a regular cleaning. Use a brush too to scrub away particles. Rinse with a hose. This is more than mechanically removing the virus, the soap will dissolve the fat surface of it. Soap and water is what is recommended for your hands after all. I think a lot of products recommended are to get around the use of soap when it is not feasible. For instance, you can soap up the shelves in a store, but rinsing them is a problem. A spray on, no-rinse solution would be better in that case.

Last edited by zacster; 03-31-20 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 03-31-20, 12:19 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by CycleryNorth81
1.54% would be true if the bleach was 100% active, but is not. The bleach used is a 6 percent solution, thus 1.54 needs to be multiply by 0.06 (6% divided by 100 is 0.06). The solution concentration is thus 0.09% (1.54*0.06).
CycleryNorth81, I noted that I'd made the same error, and so corrected my Lysol calcs. This is a good catch.
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