What Has Changed?
07-20-23, 01:52 PM
#51
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What the what? Wiggins had a TUE for asthma medications. That's not doping, that is literally following the rules. UCI wasn't directly involved in the package investigation (that was the UK government's job). Nor do I see freaking out over a single package as much more than the British media doing its usual scandal-hype thing.
Getting a doctor to say that you have a condition that you don't, then granting a TUE ... and the consequent physiological benefits from taking it would be abuse. Perhaps it goes to how loosely one interprets "asthma". I've never been reduced to the point of struggling to breathe, but sure, there have been times when pollen or other particulate matter in the air causes a bit of inflammation in the airways and has an effect on my athletic performance. Can I get a doctor to declare it "asthma" so I can dilate my lungs with spray medication every day I roll up on a race? I guess that's legal since nobody attempted to crack down on it. hmmm... https://www.granfondoguide.com/Conte...-are-asthmatic
Oddly enough, the team's GT dominance waned dramatically almost instantly after Portal passed. Certainly he was replaced by someone very competent, but I find it curious that the difference was so stark.
But rather than delve further down rabbit holes - suffice it to say that I really only started to move past skepticism about two years ago. Maybe it is all in my head, but things of consequence usually happen for a reason. This week, I'm back to it.
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07-20-23, 02:01 PM
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What the what? Wiggins had a TUE for asthma medications. That's not doping, that is literally following the rules. UCI wasn't directly involved in the package investigation (that was the UK government's job). Nor do I see freaking out over a single package as much more than the British media doing its usual scandal-hype thing.
Oh, good grief. Neither of them "came out of nowhere." Wiggins was a pro for years before came in 4th in the TdF in 2009, 3rd in 2012, and won a bunch of races that year. Froome's early career performances were hobbled by schistosomiasis, so his "sudden" improvement was because he received better treatment.
And notice how Sky went from kicking everyone's ass to... not? Does that mean an international telecom corporation required its cycling team to dope, and they stopped when the sponsor changed? Even though Brailsford has remained GM? Why isn't Ineos telling riders to juice?
The problem here is that you could interpret any result, whether it be victory or loss, as "proof" of doping. Suddenly blows rival out of the water? He's doping. Consistently trouncing everyone? He's doping. Recovered quickly from a bad day? Doping. Top 10 GC for years, then wins? Doping. Not in the top 10 GC for years, then wins? Doping. No matter what happens, if you aren't requiring proof, you can easily insist that someone is doping.
To wit: Is Pogacar doping? He rode Vingegaard off his wheel twice last week, and ruined everyone in the ITT except Vingegaard. Yet he got shelled the next day. Are these results proof that he was doping, or nah?
That's why we really need to stick to actual evidence. If you aren't able to do that, then why would you bother to follow the sport?
Oh, good grief. Neither of them "came out of nowhere." Wiggins was a pro for years before came in 4th in the TdF in 2009, 3rd in 2012, and won a bunch of races that year. Froome's early career performances were hobbled by schistosomiasis, so his "sudden" improvement was because he received better treatment.
And notice how Sky went from kicking everyone's ass to... not? Does that mean an international telecom corporation required its cycling team to dope, and they stopped when the sponsor changed? Even though Brailsford has remained GM? Why isn't Ineos telling riders to juice?
The problem here is that you could interpret any result, whether it be victory or loss, as "proof" of doping. Suddenly blows rival out of the water? He's doping. Consistently trouncing everyone? He's doping. Recovered quickly from a bad day? Doping. Top 10 GC for years, then wins? Doping. Not in the top 10 GC for years, then wins? Doping. No matter what happens, if you aren't requiring proof, you can easily insist that someone is doping.
To wit: Is Pogacar doping? He rode Vingegaard off his wheel twice last week, and ruined everyone in the ITT except Vingegaard. Yet he got shelled the next day. Are these results proof that he was doping, or nah?
That's why we really need to stick to actual evidence. If you aren't able to do that, then why would you bother to follow the sport?
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07-20-23, 02:59 PM
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Maybe it's time for a Super-Modified division. Take whatever you want. First rider to finish alive wins. Prizes may be picked up by next of kin.
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07-20-23, 06:57 PM
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07-20-23, 09:46 PM
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I've spent a lot of time trying to wrap my head around all the changes that have taken place with bicycle equipment over the last 10 years. Start looking at changes in bike designs for improved aerodynamics, the major shift in the design of wheels in regards to width, depth, and especially shape which takes advantage of optimized tire sizes that are nothing like they used to be. Even the way cables are hidden or even discarded for electronic. 2x12 means that there isn't as many times where a gear is just too long or too short when trying to maintain a certain power output and the terrain or wind direction changes, while also giving lower low gears so that the toughest climbs aren't ground up but spun up with greater ease. Personally I think we're in a time when bike changes have been so drastic, for greater speed, that it can't be helped when records are being broken on a regular basis. Personally I wish I could know how fast Merckx would have in his prime on a modern bike with all its advantages.
07-21-23, 04:46 AM
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Check out the series Eat. Race. Win. on amazon, its a docuseries following one of the team chefs and goes into the importance of nutrition for optimizing performance.
I've spent a lot of time trying to wrap my head around all the changes that have taken place with bicycle equipment over the last 10 years. Start looking at changes in bike designs for improved aerodynamics, the major shift in the design of wheels in regards to width, depth, and especially shape which takes advantage of optimized tire sizes that are nothing like they used to be. Even the way cables are hidden or even discarded for electronic. 2x12 means that there isn't as many times where a gear is just too long or too short when trying to maintain a certain power output and the terrain or wind direction changes, while also giving lower low gears so that the toughest climbs aren't ground up but spun up with greater ease. Personally I think we're in a time when bike changes have been so drastic, for greater speed, that it can't be helped when records are being broken on a regular basis. Personally I wish I could know how fast Merckx would have in his prime on a modern bike with all its advantages.
I've spent a lot of time trying to wrap my head around all the changes that have taken place with bicycle equipment over the last 10 years. Start looking at changes in bike designs for improved aerodynamics, the major shift in the design of wheels in regards to width, depth, and especially shape which takes advantage of optimized tire sizes that are nothing like they used to be. Even the way cables are hidden or even discarded for electronic. 2x12 means that there isn't as many times where a gear is just too long or too short when trying to maintain a certain power output and the terrain or wind direction changes, while also giving lower low gears so that the toughest climbs aren't ground up but spun up with greater ease. Personally I think we're in a time when bike changes have been so drastic, for greater speed, that it can't be helped when records are being broken on a regular basis. Personally I wish I could know how fast Merckx would have in his prime on a modern bike with all its advantages.
Food, equipment, aero, wheels, carbon fiber...
We need to look at Watts/KG. Hard to find solid data - but Vingo is up there with or above Pantani, Contador, up there with the all time best. They were eating food, and coke, and amphetamines, and steroids, and EPO,,, and whatever else they could stuff down their gizzards.
Athletes in all professional sports are always one step ahead of the doping police. I don't think any level of professional sports, even amateur and college, are clean.
07-21-23, 05:40 AM
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The next thing you know, someone is gonna come in here and claim that WWE wrestling is choreographed.
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07-21-23, 06:18 AM
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Develop a standard of testing, and smarter people will develop a way to beat the testing.
07-21-23, 06:53 AM
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Altitude training, which they all seem to do now - can be and is used to manipulate the tests associated with the biological passport. Coupled with proper micro dosing and use of other drugs that stimulate natural EPO production, Roxadustat for example, the riders not only can beat the biological passport, but they can also beat random testing.
Develop a standard of testing, and smarter people will develop a way to beat the testing.
Develop a standard of testing, and smarter people will develop a way to beat the testing.
07-21-23, 07:25 AM
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I just read a few articles, some included statements from WADA officials - about this very subject. No speculation, loose quotes from what they said themselves.
-"It stimulates your body like it is in altitude, and stimulates the upstream of red blood cells, promoting endogenous erythropoietin (EPO)." Roxadustat, which has been detectable since 2017, has an elimination half-life of 10-16 hours, making it hard for the anti-doping controllers to catch potential cheats.-
Biological Passport: Have dopers found ways to beat it? | Cyclingnews
"Take 2011 research by anti-doping expert Michael Ashenden that saw him inject healthy volunteers twice weekly with EPO for up to 12 weeks.
The treatment resulted in a 10 per cent increase in haemoglobin mass, the equivalent of two bags of reinfused blood.
"But the ABP did not flag any suspicions of doping," said the study."
Lundby and his colleagues have seen similar results.
"We've manipulated blood volume via EPO injections and blood transfusions," the Dane told us. "We sent the results to WADA-accredited labs and they failed to detect misuse. WADA then threatened lawsuits and weren't very happy with us publishing the results."
"There are many legal factors that affect plasma volume," explains Dr Jeroen Swart, medical director at UAE Team Emirates. "These include heat, illness and a heavy training load, which is what makes in-competition testing, especially stage races, so problematic.
"Altitude has a significant effect on plasma volume, too," Swart adds. "For example, a trip to 3,000m will result in a 15 per cent contraction of plasma volume. This is a significant change, which is why the question of altitude exposure is asked whenever a blood sample is collected.
"While reticulocyte percentage isn't measured against plasma volume, and therefore not affected by plasma volume changes, there are still changes that occur in response to altitude and on return to sea level. All of this makes altitude exposure a problematic factor in the bio passport."
The aim of micro-dosing is to illegally boost haemoglobin levels. The aim of altitude training is to legally boost haemoglobin levels. It's why there are concerns riders head to the latter and adopt the former.
"If you want to cheat, go to high altitude and explain your blood transfusion results as altitude training," Lundby warns. “It's why ABP is not a perfect system."
In Lundby's 2012 paper, he stated that altitude tests weren't taken into account due to how much they can skew figures.
"That’s changed," says Hansen. "Now when you go to altitude, you write it in your Whereabouts notes so WADA can calculate how high you are and observe how readings adapt to time and altitude. When I altitude train at home (tent and mask), I give a very clear explanation on the control forms."
But decoupling the effects of micro-dosing and altitude is difficult, made even harder by those altitude tents.
Roxadustat -
"When you're at altitude, you need a master regulator saying you need more EPO. In EPO's case, it's HIF-1 [hypoxia-inducible factor 1]. This degrades at sea level. However, there are drugs called prolyl hydroxylases that stabilise HIF-1. Take these and you can enjoy a constant source of HIF-1.
"It's brilliant for kidney patients, who it was developed for. But from an anti-doping perspective, it's a nightmare because you won't be able to distinguish whether the increase in EPO is artificial or not, unless you analyse for this specific compound. But the list of manufacturers of these is very long. It's an endless problem," said Lundby.
These are just quick searches that show proven ways to beat anti doping and the passport system. Roxadustat is out of your system in less than a day.
They, both sides, know of ways to beat the system. And these are things they are willing to admit - who knows what else they have going on...
Micro dosing, altitude tents and altitude training, hard to trace drugs that stimulate natural production of other substances - like natural EPO...
If an altitude tent has similar effects to training at altitude, and the athlete has to do nothing for the gains but sleep - isn't that a form of doping? Read the claims on this website
Buy or Rent Altitude Tent | Elevation Tent - Mountain Air Cardio
Couple that with the knowledge of professional team doctors, with the money involved...
-"It stimulates your body like it is in altitude, and stimulates the upstream of red blood cells, promoting endogenous erythropoietin (EPO)." Roxadustat, which has been detectable since 2017, has an elimination half-life of 10-16 hours, making it hard for the anti-doping controllers to catch potential cheats.-
Biological Passport: Have dopers found ways to beat it? | Cyclingnews
"Take 2011 research by anti-doping expert Michael Ashenden that saw him inject healthy volunteers twice weekly with EPO for up to 12 weeks.
The treatment resulted in a 10 per cent increase in haemoglobin mass, the equivalent of two bags of reinfused blood.
"But the ABP did not flag any suspicions of doping," said the study."
Lundby and his colleagues have seen similar results.
"We've manipulated blood volume via EPO injections and blood transfusions," the Dane told us. "We sent the results to WADA-accredited labs and they failed to detect misuse. WADA then threatened lawsuits and weren't very happy with us publishing the results."
"There are many legal factors that affect plasma volume," explains Dr Jeroen Swart, medical director at UAE Team Emirates. "These include heat, illness and a heavy training load, which is what makes in-competition testing, especially stage races, so problematic.
"Altitude has a significant effect on plasma volume, too," Swart adds. "For example, a trip to 3,000m will result in a 15 per cent contraction of plasma volume. This is a significant change, which is why the question of altitude exposure is asked whenever a blood sample is collected.
"While reticulocyte percentage isn't measured against plasma volume, and therefore not affected by plasma volume changes, there are still changes that occur in response to altitude and on return to sea level. All of this makes altitude exposure a problematic factor in the bio passport."
The aim of micro-dosing is to illegally boost haemoglobin levels. The aim of altitude training is to legally boost haemoglobin levels. It's why there are concerns riders head to the latter and adopt the former.
"If you want to cheat, go to high altitude and explain your blood transfusion results as altitude training," Lundby warns. “It's why ABP is not a perfect system."
In Lundby's 2012 paper, he stated that altitude tests weren't taken into account due to how much they can skew figures.
"That’s changed," says Hansen. "Now when you go to altitude, you write it in your Whereabouts notes so WADA can calculate how high you are and observe how readings adapt to time and altitude. When I altitude train at home (tent and mask), I give a very clear explanation on the control forms."
But decoupling the effects of micro-dosing and altitude is difficult, made even harder by those altitude tents.
Roxadustat -
"When you're at altitude, you need a master regulator saying you need more EPO. In EPO's case, it's HIF-1 [hypoxia-inducible factor 1]. This degrades at sea level. However, there are drugs called prolyl hydroxylases that stabilise HIF-1. Take these and you can enjoy a constant source of HIF-1.
"It's brilliant for kidney patients, who it was developed for. But from an anti-doping perspective, it's a nightmare because you won't be able to distinguish whether the increase in EPO is artificial or not, unless you analyse for this specific compound. But the list of manufacturers of these is very long. It's an endless problem," said Lundby.
These are just quick searches that show proven ways to beat anti doping and the passport system. Roxadustat is out of your system in less than a day.
They, both sides, know of ways to beat the system. And these are things they are willing to admit - who knows what else they have going on...
Micro dosing, altitude tents and altitude training, hard to trace drugs that stimulate natural production of other substances - like natural EPO...
If an altitude tent has similar effects to training at altitude, and the athlete has to do nothing for the gains but sleep - isn't that a form of doping? Read the claims on this website
Buy or Rent Altitude Tent | Elevation Tent - Mountain Air Cardio
Couple that with the knowledge of professional team doctors, with the money involved...
07-21-23, 09:14 AM
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Food, equipment, aero, wheels, carbon fiber...
We need to look at Watts/KG. Hard to find solid data - but Vingo is up there with or above Pantani, Contador, up there with the all time best. They were eating food, and coke, and amphetamines, and steroids, and EPO,,, and whatever else they could stuff down their gizzards.
Athletes in all professional sports are always one step ahead of the doping police. I don't think any level of professional sports, even amateur and college, are clean.
We need to look at Watts/KG. Hard to find solid data - but Vingo is up there with or above Pantani, Contador, up there with the all time best. They were eating food, and coke, and amphetamines, and steroids, and EPO,,, and whatever else they could stuff down their gizzards.
Athletes in all professional sports are always one step ahead of the doping police. I don't think any level of professional sports, even amateur and college, are clean.
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07-21-23, 10:33 AM
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The target for Lance was 6.5 W/Kg (or something very close to that). From what I understand, Jonas has been putting up 7+ W/Kg numbers. I read something yesterday that Jonas is also gifted with one of the highest VO2 Max numbers ever tested, but I don't know the validity of that information.
Asking because I'm interested, not because I'm doubting what you write.
07-21-23, 10:44 AM
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It was posted somewhere I was reading yesterday. My recollection was that it was a reliable source, but I don't recall exactly where I saw it.
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07-21-23, 10:59 AM
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The target for Lance was 6.5 W/Kg (or something very close to that). From what I understand, Jonas has been putting up 7+ W/Kg numbers. I read something yesterday that Jonas is also gifted with one of the highest VO2 Max numbers ever tested, but I don't know the validity of that information.
Lantern Rouge also listed an analysis of a longer climb/stage where he turned 6.8+/- w/kg - right up there with the biggest names and dopers of all time.
Jonas Vingegaard Pushes All-Time Great Watts - Lanterne Rouge
in the link you can see a chart of his power and click on the burger dots and get the climb, time and W/kg. Best since Contador... Pink line is top 25 efforts of all time, for this race he was near the top. The TDF time trial puts him off the charts as the most w/kg of all time.
Edit - a chart further down in the link shows the best of all time, Pantani at 7.6 for 8 min. Jonas did 7.6 for 13 min.
For reference, here are the power figures of the big dopers. Note Lemond (before EPO) - note Pantini, who took everything including coke/speed and is commonly called the greatest climber of all time.
Either the man is naturally the most gifted cyclist the world has ever seen - or...
Last edited by Jughed; 07-21-23 at 11:06 AM.
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07-21-23, 11:04 AM
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We're all speculating at this point. But IMO if the last nearly 60 years of cycling’s history teaches us anything, it’s that some degree of skepticism regarding PED use is warranted.
The TdF instituted drug testing in 1966. Yet some pro cyclists still violate doping rules; as recently as last year a TdF rider was retroactively disqualified for using Tramadol – which is a no-no during competition. And a relatively large number were caught in other races using EPO or CERA in 2018, even though it’s been known since 2008 that those substances were detectable.
I also have to wonder: given the amount of money and prestige involved at the higher echelons of cycling, how much would a novel hematocrit booster - developed in secret, undetectable by current testing, and which allowed “fine tuning” of levels - be worth to a pro cyclist or his/her team? Or a novel steroid that didn’t produce any currently-recognized metabolites or blood changes, but still enhanced strength and reduced post-race recovery times? Money and prestige can be powerful inducements to break the rules as well as the law.
Even known severe health effects might not deter use of such substances by everyone; do an Internet search for "Goldman's dilemma".
I certainly hope pro cycling is now “clean” with respect to PED use. So far as I know we don’t have any tests from this year's TdF that are positive for illicit performance boosting drugs or techniques. But cycling’s history tells me I should be somewhat skeptical of claims that everyone is “clean”.
The TdF instituted drug testing in 1966. Yet some pro cyclists still violate doping rules; as recently as last year a TdF rider was retroactively disqualified for using Tramadol – which is a no-no during competition. And a relatively large number were caught in other races using EPO or CERA in 2018, even though it’s been known since 2008 that those substances were detectable.
I also have to wonder: given the amount of money and prestige involved at the higher echelons of cycling, how much would a novel hematocrit booster - developed in secret, undetectable by current testing, and which allowed “fine tuning” of levels - be worth to a pro cyclist or his/her team? Or a novel steroid that didn’t produce any currently-recognized metabolites or blood changes, but still enhanced strength and reduced post-race recovery times? Money and prestige can be powerful inducements to break the rules as well as the law.
Even known severe health effects might not deter use of such substances by everyone; do an Internet search for "Goldman's dilemma".
I certainly hope pro cycling is now “clean” with respect to PED use. So far as I know we don’t have any tests from this year's TdF that are positive for illicit performance boosting drugs or techniques. But cycling’s history tells me I should be somewhat skeptical of claims that everyone is “clean”.
07-21-23, 06:01 PM
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We're all speculating at this point. But IMO if the last nearly 60 years of cycling’s history teaches us anything, it’s that some degree of skepticism regarding PED use is warranted.
The TdF instituted drug testing in 1966. Yet some pro cyclists still violate doping rules; as recently as last year a TdF rider was retroactively disqualified for using Tramadol – which is a no-no during competition. And a relatively large number were caught in other races using EPO or CERA in 2018, even though it’s been known since 2008 that those substances were detectable.
I also have to wonder: given the amount of money and prestige involved at the higher echelons of cycling, how much would a novel hematocrit booster - developed in secret, undetectable by current testing, and which allowed “fine tuning” of levels - be worth to a pro cyclist or his/her team? Or a novel steroid that didn’t produce any currently-recognized metabolites or blood changes, but still enhanced strength and reduced post-race recovery times? Money and prestige can be powerful inducements to break the rules as well as the law.
Even known severe health effects might not deter use of such substances by everyone; do an Internet search for "Goldman's dilemma".
I certainly hope pro cycling is now “clean” with respect to PED use. So far as I know we don’t have any tests from this year's TdF that are positive for illicit performance boosting drugs or techniques. But cycling’s history tells me I should be somewhat skeptical of claims that everyone is “clean”.
The TdF instituted drug testing in 1966. Yet some pro cyclists still violate doping rules; as recently as last year a TdF rider was retroactively disqualified for using Tramadol – which is a no-no during competition. And a relatively large number were caught in other races using EPO or CERA in 2018, even though it’s been known since 2008 that those substances were detectable.
I also have to wonder: given the amount of money and prestige involved at the higher echelons of cycling, how much would a novel hematocrit booster - developed in secret, undetectable by current testing, and which allowed “fine tuning” of levels - be worth to a pro cyclist or his/her team? Or a novel steroid that didn’t produce any currently-recognized metabolites or blood changes, but still enhanced strength and reduced post-race recovery times? Money and prestige can be powerful inducements to break the rules as well as the law.
Even known severe health effects might not deter use of such substances by everyone; do an Internet search for "Goldman's dilemma".
I certainly hope pro cycling is now “clean” with respect to PED use. So far as I know we don’t have any tests from this year's TdF that are positive for illicit performance boosting drugs or techniques. But cycling’s history tells me I should be somewhat skeptical of claims that everyone is “clean”.
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07-21-23, 08:34 PM
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Didn't JV used to work in a fish processing plant? There's your explanation. He's probably doped to the gills.
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07-23-23, 03:03 PM
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Newbie
So - a 135# climber that is not only blowing the field away on climbs, but on long flat TT's as well. Nothing to see here...
So - a 175# power house climbing with the climbers, sprinting with the sprinters, and TT'ing with the TT'ers. Nothing to see here...
There will always be some form of cheating/seeking a competitive advantage in professional sports.
Pogs broke his own record and was beaten by multiple riders - could be that he wasn't full gas on his previous attempt - tail winds... many factors, not enough data to make any conclusions based on one climb.
However, last year's ascent up Huez - 5 riders finished in a group and all clocked times that are in the top 20 of all time. 90%+ of the top 100 times were set by known dopers in the doping era. A few outliers mixed in over the past 10+ years, but the majority of the times were set by dopers. But last year, 5 riders cracked the top 20.
So - a 175# power house climbing with the climbers, sprinting with the sprinters, and TT'ing with the TT'ers. Nothing to see here...
There will always be some form of cheating/seeking a competitive advantage in professional sports.
Pogs broke his own record and was beaten by multiple riders - could be that he wasn't full gas on his previous attempt - tail winds... many factors, not enough data to make any conclusions based on one climb.
However, last year's ascent up Huez - 5 riders finished in a group and all clocked times that are in the top 20 of all time. 90%+ of the top 100 times were set by known dopers in the doping era. A few outliers mixed in over the past 10+ years, but the majority of the times were set by dopers. But last year, 5 riders cracked the top 20.
07-23-23, 03:06 PM
#70
Newbie
Likes For Highcad:
07-23-23, 03:14 PM
#71
Newbie
But Wout has been pulling around the entire Peleton - but look at Wout's performance at last years TDF - not normal at all.
