noahsmonark

I'm putting together a bike for my wife - I'll make a post with pictures once I get it up and running.

The bike (70's Batavus) is nothing special in terms of weight/parts but it's the perfect size and color, looks great and the mixte frame is spotless, not a single paint chip in sight - unfortunately, the bike's going to need new wheels at some point sooner or later; rims+spokes are a bit bent and sketchy and after I swapped in a new chain, the biggest gear (smallest cog) in the back now skips badly. The freewheel (Cyclo 72) was getting noisy anyway. Furthermore, the rims are nasty steel ones and the front hub is somewhat worn as well, so... New wheels altogether would bring the bike to another level.

Here's the thing, it's got 27" wheels... So everything's going to be a little harder. The brakes are already set near their upmost limit.

Ok. So. I looked into Sun CR 18 and something like that would be more than adequate for this project, I really don't care if it's aftermarket or high end or not as long as it gets the job done and looks the part = 70's ish, polished. But I'm in Europe and Sun rims are nowhere to be found, so I might just have to keep an eye for used or NOS alloy rims off Ebay.

As for the hubs, the current ones are high flange (Shimano front, Normandy back) and that really makes the bike look good, so I'm looking for something that is high flange and has that somewhat retro-ish look - but is as readily-available and compatible as possible (in terms of then finding a suitable freewheel for it etc.) --> I'm sure some folks here have done similar things with their 70's 'average' garage bikes and I think I could use some pointers in regard to hassle-free and affordable 27" alloy rims+hubs combos. Thank you.

The bike's a 10-speed (5 in the back) with a rear dropout spacing of 120mm.

TenGrainBread 

Regarding the rim size - when you say the brake pads are at their "upmost limit", do you mean they are at the top of the adjusting slot, or bottom? What brakes are they? If they are at the top and not bottom, you might have room to go to 700C, at which point rims and tires are more available.

Regarding hubs - have you tried to to open up and clean/repack the existing hubs? Unless the bearing race is pitted or damaged on your front hub, it should be a quick job to clean and repack them and then you can use them for your rebuild with new rims. The issue with the freewheel is also a non-issue as you can easily replace the freewheel.

noahsmonark

Oh, wow. Actually, all this time I was under the impression 700c is bigger than 27" - not smaller. I had read somewhere that 700c equals to 29" which led to confusion. Now, it looks like 700c is indeed smaller, in which case, it may be a great idea to switch to 700c - the brakes are pictured next to the current, 27" rim below. There's still room for the pads to slide down...






Thank you. Well, I was told that the front hub had been serviced recently - but, it feels grindy when tightened snug - and very wobbly when tightened slightly less-snug. The wobbliness varies from rotation to rotation - it's almost perfect on some rotation, and wobbles a bit side-to-side on another rotation, which makes me think the bearings or races might be gone. Might be time for new ones.

TenGrainBread 

Great news about the wheels. Looks like 700C might work!

Hub bearing tension adjustment can be finicky. I would open up the hub, inspect the balls and races, clean and repack with fresh grease, and then readjust the hub. No use throwing it out if it is in good shape and just needs some servicing. Some hubs are just harder to hit that sweet spot of no play and no binding and need some back-and-forth adjusting time.

noahsmonark

Nice! If I got this right, the rim's inner diameter for a 27" rim is 630mm while with a 700c it is 622mm.

This would require me to slide the brake pads down just 4mm - perfect, as this wouldn't even bring the brake pad near the half-way point of the available space. I was worried if it got right at the very end, it might make the brakes feel a bit wobbly, but I doubt this will make too much difference there.

So unless I missed anything (the braking surface of a 700c rim isn't significantly taller or anything? And the extra gap between the fender and the tire shouldn't be That huge should it...) then this settles it: when it's time to replace I'm definitely going for 700c wheels with this bike. Thanks very much for the input here.


Cool, I will consider this.

An earlier bike project never quite reached that smooth hub rolling feel I was aiming for (even after brand new cones and bearing balls) so I guess I'm a little suspicious about getting these well-ridden hubs up to par. The grinding/wobbling is just that noticeable. It's a good suggestion though; it would be best if I had another look in there.

Meanwhile, I'll also consider the option of fresh hubs - are there some aftermarket high flange/ok quality ones that have a retro-ish look to them but aren't overly expensive?

TenGrainBread 

Not really. The problem is you need a 5 speed (freewheel) hub with 120mm spacing. Nobody makes those new. A couple of cheap ones made for utility replacement wheels for bike shops, like from Quando. But those aren't high flange, and I wouldn't exactly describe them as good quality.

Your best bet is going on ebay and getting some vintage Shimano, Maillard, or Suntour hubs. Way cheaper than buying "retro" new ones like from Soma or Velo Orange.

USAZorro

Maillard would also include Normandy and Atom (not sure if Atom made High Flange). SunTour also marketed under Sunshine and Sanshin. They all made very respectable hubs at several price points, and the ProAm model was excellent. Gnutti, Zeus, Miche, Shimano, and several others that I'm missing are also genuine articles from the 70's.

TenGrainBread 

Agreed on all of those brands making hubs that are period-correct to the bike.

One minor correction - Sanshin manufactured hubs for Suntour, not the other way around.

noahsmonark

Ah, good pointers guys, cheers, just what I was wondering about.

Of these mentioned brands, are there any I should avoid for the reason that they have, say, way harder to find freewheel compatibility or need very exotic/specific freewheel removal tools or so...

(I'm under the impression that the current Cyclo 72 freewheel, for example, would require a kind of a rare key to get off)

HTupolev

700c is the same as 29".

Unfortunately, marketing people name rim sizes based on what they imagine the inflated tire diameter will be in the rim's imagined use case. "29er" is a term used on mountain bikes, and if you throw a 2.3" tire on a 700c rim, it will indeed inflate to around 29" across. 27" rims are 8mm wider across, but they've generally been used on road bikes: if you throw a 30mm tire on a 27" rim, it inflates to around 27". So, 27" is bigger than 29", and there's something vaguely resembling a reason behind that.

In a sensible world, rim diameter would be primarily specified by the bead seat diameter. 700c/29er is 622mm, 27" is 630mm.

Dfrost 

What’s your rationale for going period-correct?

From a functional standpoint, there are lots of hubs you could use when you build up or buy those 700C wheels. Do you have bike co-op or decent used bike parts emporium where you live? (Hint: add your location in user CP) It wouldn’t take much to go up to a 126mm OLD (width across locknuts) rear freewheel hub, which opens up many more freewheel options including 6- or 7-speed.

What brakes are on there now? Your wife might appreciate having really good braking. Dual pivot calipers with hidden cable levers, and especially Kool Stop salmon brake pads (possible on the existing calipers, too) will give her much more capability, hence confidence.

John E

If you can't find an "ultra" (narrow-spaced) 6-speed freewheel, do consider installing a longer axle and converting to either standard 6 (126mm OLD) or 7 (128mm OLD, although will work with 126 for some hub and frame combinations if you finesse the spacers). I have done this with most of my 1960s and early 1970s frames, and it enhances functionality while still looking "period correct" to the untrained observer. Many frames and brake calipers from that vintage were built to accommodate either 700C or 27" rims, so if you have a 4mm margin in the right direction, you are good to go on that. I have only one 27" wheel left on any of my bikes, having swapped in 700C on all of the others.

Dfrost 

Shimano freewheels are ubiquitous, the splined removal tool works better than other types, and judging from the poorly maintained, rusty and filthy donated bikes I see every week at Bike Works, they hold up to that lack of care amazingly well.

BTW, if you’re going with a full replacement rear wheel and different freewheel, there’s no reason to bother getting a special tool to remove the old Cyclo FW.

dddd

Since I discovered that a Shimano 7s hub can be made into a 124mm width just by removing a 1mm washer from each end of the axle assembly, I often put together 7s hubs/wheels to 124mm spec., using either freewheel hubs or cassette freehubs.
The chain clearance is there in most cases, unless a derailer claw-mount nut or axle spacer gadget protrudes into the chain's path. A 124mm-spaced rear hub even slips into a 120mm frame without much drama, and Peugeot's typically were 121mm already.

Often the 5s hubs (such as Normandy, but other than Campy's) can have a standard 6s freewheel added just by adding ~1mm of driveside axle spacing, at least when modern chain is used (what I almost always use myself). Modern chain "cross-chains" with far less friction/noise than traditional chain, as well as clearing the front derailer cage through a much wider range of shifting gears in back.

The wheel below was a 5s wheel on a 121mm Peugeot, but here has been built to 124mm width and with a 7s freewheel for use on the same bike.

RandolphCarter

What you are describing - where the 'wobble' varies from rotation to rotation - shouldn't happen with a recently serviced hub with intact parts. I've had this happen to me when I re-used ball bearings after cleaning them. They had gotten slightly out of round due to wear. Replacing all of the bearings solved my problem.

You should also check the cones and races for wear and pitting, and check that the axle isn't bent.

And yes, upgrading to alloy rims will give you a large improvement in ride quality.

noahsmonark

Haha, what a mess.



Not too picky in terms of when/where a given part is manufactured (in fact it wouldn't even have been a deal braker for me if I'd just found an 'ok quality' completely ready aftermarket wheelset for this thing) but more generally, aesthetically speaking I do want the bike to look just right. Rims ought to be polished, hubs high flange etc.



Good one, I have the Salmons on another bike and do like them a lot. The brakes on this Batavus actually surprised me a bit: I looked at the steel rims, cheapo calipers and the old worn-out pads and figured, well the breaking is going to be a joke - but the brakes are actually working very well. Will likely be a different story in the rain (steel rims) but at least when dry, they work just great with minimum amount of braking force so I'm just going to keep these old Altenburger calipers and when swapping to alloy rims+new pads at some point it'll make things even nicer.



Very helpful pointer, appreciate that. My main bike is full of obscure parts and whenever there's a slightest problem, I first need to figure out tons of stuff - and has tubular tires on top of everything else as well... So it would be nice if this bike at least, was put together for a little easier maintenance, just to maintain my sanity.



About 5-speed vs. 6 and 7-speed. Good stuff here from everyone. I'll give that some thought.

I think 5 would be quite ok for this project tbh - the bike is actually quite rideable now, has already been test driven and everything is working as it should, I just temporarily set the gears so it doesn't reach to smallest (skipping) cog. Nothing has deteriorated to the point of one actually noticing it while riding, so upgrading the wheels is mostly about making it smoother overall (including braking feel) and surely lighter.

Of course if, say, a ready 6-speed wheelset comes along and it would be perfect for this and just need to spread the rear dropouts a few millimeters, I wouldn't say no to that either. Not a bad idea at all.


Next up: I noticed there's a slight bit of play (=maybe 1mm or ever-so-slightly less at the end of one pedal, while wiggling the other) in the otherwise very smoothly operating BB and I'm wondering whether I should start with the guesswork of which way it unscrews - ending up possibly making the whole thing worse. Man flu + French (?) BB adjustment with lacking tools is not really what I'd call my ideal day.

Salamandrine 

+1 just go 700c. There's plenty of room and it's authentic continental spec even for the 70s.


FWIW the Sun rims that look most retro to me are the M13II. They come in polished and look like old Rigida if you take off the sticker. The CR18 seem to mostly (only?) come in silver anodized, which just isn't the 70s look. Many other options available, at least in the US: VO, Pacenti, Herse, H+ Son, etc.


It suspect SJS in the UK will have something in a polished low profile rim.


Pedal wiggle can be loose bearing or a bent crank. Don't worry about it for now IMO. Post pics if you like. Some pedals pretty much fall apart when you take of the dustcap (Lyotard).


I wouldn't worry too much about the freewheel tool. Whichever you pick you should be able to find a tool. I'm not a big fan of 70s Shimano freewheels. I guess DA would have been good but not many of those around. I preferred Regina, Suntour, Cyclo, Atom. Cyclo-Pans were awesome but good luck finding one now.

noahsmonark

Good stuff, cheers.


Ah, nope, not pedal wiggle - bottom bracket wiggle.

So when I push/pull one pedal or crank arm away or toward the frame, I can see and feel the other one moving about 1mm or slightly less. I don't think there's anything wrong with the balls or races, it has just gotten slightly loose.

Not by much, but... It needs to be tightened sooner or later anyway. I guess I'm a bit traumatized by an earlier experience with another bike where I had first double, triple, quadruple checked online whether it opens clockwise or counter-clockwise - and ended up banging it to the wrong direction for a good while.

Happen to know which way I should turn which bit to just get in there enough, to tighten it a little bit? Dutch bike, mostly French parts, 1972.

Salamandrine 

From you description, it sounds like it only needs some minor adjustment. The left or non drive side of the bottom bracket which is shown in the photo is the adjustable cup. These are always right hand (normal) thread, and this is the only side you touch for adjustment.

You'll need a lock ring wrench and some sort of wrench to grab the inner flats of the adjustable cup itself. The lock ring wrench is more important.

Loosen the lock ring. Tighten the adjustable cup a tiny bit, say an 1/8 turn or less. Re tighten the lock ring. Test for play. When you tighten down the lock ring, it will affect the tightness of the bearing. For this reason you have to keep repeating this process. Fiddle with the position of the adjustable cup slightly, and retighten the lock ring again, until the bearing is as loose as possible but with no play. It might take you three tries. It might take 10.

All adjustable bearings on old bikes are like this, so it's a basic skill for C&V.

It's helpful to have a proper BB wrench that fits the flats of the adjustable cup to hold it in place when you tighten the lockring, but you can get away without it. It just takes more cut and try.

noahsmonark

Much appreciate the instructions, super helpful. Just watched RJ The Bike Guy's video on a Peugeot BB as well, and combined with this, it WILL be the correct direction I'll be whacking it this time... I have just the right wrench for the cup I think, but I will have to use a screwdriver-hammer combo for the lock ring.

I'll tighten it tomorrow. I just tried spinning the cranks without the chain on, to observe the BB movement a little bit - it is super effortless and there are no clicking/grinding noises or wobbles of any sort, but to be honest, it's still quite far from 100% smooth/silent. I can definitely hear a low mechanical rumble while it spins. Gut feeling is, it's probably ok but hasn't been serviced in quite a while.

Still, I think I'd rather not try a full BB overhaul at this point - getting those crank arm pins out looked like an absolute pain in RJ's video so I might just settle for tightening it a bit for now, and if I start hearing anything weird in the future, maybe have a professional do a full overhaul on it with proper tools, new bearings etc.

Bike's looking good. I think I got all the info I need in terms of new wheels and if my wife likes everything about the bike after a couple of months of riding, I'll get some alloy ones for it. The current wheels are ok to get it on the road.

thumpism 

Two things:

Someone mentioned upgrading to dual-pivot brakes. Looks like your bike has Altenburger Synchron brake calipers, the grandaddy of dual-pivots.


Looks like your inner tubes have Woods valves. Buy yourself some Schrader valve inner tubes. Your sanity will thank me.

wawine

Not sure what your budget is, but I have stacks of 1970’s, high flange wheel sets in 700c clinchers of various makes. I have some which would be very affordable, but shipping may be the killer.

noahsmonark

Ah, that does sound very tempting - I wasn't too excited looking at the prices of complete aftermarket wheelsets, while building them from scratch part-by-part wasn't exactly what I had in mind for this bike when I first got it, either ( = "oh nice bike, this one should be a quick no-hassle build!")

I imagine you're right though, posting it could prove problematic.

If I glanced at this correctly, a wheelset-sized package (which looked to be right at the very max size limit for a box) might cost almost 70$ to post, ouch -->

https://postcalc.usps.com/

noahsmonark

Tightened the BB and it's perfect now - won't want to do it with a hammer and a screwdriver ever again though, so yep, next time round I'll have gotten a lock ring wrench for sure.

Sandstrom

Sounds like you've got the BB sorted but keep an eye out for one of these Hozan wrenches, great for a lot of these old lock rings:

Nice progress so far and don't forget to give us some "finished" pics when you're done!