Alleged Angeles Crest Road Rage Incident Involves Cyclists
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,401
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times
in
13 Posts
You seem familiar with the road. Are you also familiar with safety considerations?
How wide is the lane there? Is the width consistent? What is the condition of the road surface far to the right? Again, is it consistent? What is the frequency of intersecting roads and high-volume driveways? What are the sight lined and how does riding FRAP change them? When was the last time you rode that stretch of road?
I'm an strong advocate of sharing the lane when safe but the decision to share or take must be that of the cyclist.
Your other comments about 5 MPH average riders and prettyboys do not give me any confidence in your ability to make safety decisions for others. You seem to thinking with a body part south of your brain.
How wide is the lane there? Is the width consistent? What is the condition of the road surface far to the right? Again, is it consistent? What is the frequency of intersecting roads and high-volume driveways? What are the sight lined and how does riding FRAP change them? When was the last time you rode that stretch of road?
I'm an strong advocate of sharing the lane when safe but the decision to share or take must be that of the cyclist.
Your other comments about 5 MPH average riders and prettyboys do not give me any confidence in your ability to make safety decisions for others. You seem to thinking with a body part south of your brain.
And it's obvious that the cyclist's decisions are always made by the cyclist. The question is whether that cyclist's decisions are any good.
I don't know what you are trying to say with your last line, other than that I'm not invited to your daughter's wedding.The road is steeply uphill. Cyclists ride up steep hills slowly. And as a former Lycra-clad prettyboy I'm qualified to speak about it.
Beyond that, I'll just note - again - the tendency of A&Sers to take a simple concept (going really slow in front of other road users is rude) and clutter it up with as much nonsense and double-speak as possible in trying to prove that rude isn't rude, as long as it's a cyclist doing it.
Last edited by Six jours; 07-03-11 at 02:03 PM.
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
It's not about speed or rights or court cases and blablabla. It's about common courtesy and safety in the real world. A single rider on Angeles Crest Highway can be passed safely if the rider is over to the right. Two riders side-by-side cannot. It's unnecessary and rude and shows exactly the kind of contempt for other road users that A&Sers are always complaining about from drivers.
Oh, so you'd rather that the cyclists who use this road put themselves in danger by riding too close to the right edge of the road, is that really what you are saying?
No, I'd have to argue that it is the other road users who are showing contempt by not waiting until it is SAFE for them to pass the cyclists.
Also so than, I guess from the above statements that you didn't see anything wrong with what that former ER doctor out in LA did to the various cyclists. In particular the last two that even though they were riding at the speed limit (or close enough to the posted speed limit as not to really make any difference) and were riding two abreast. He swoops around them and brakes fast in front of them. One of them ending up with a severe case of road rash, the other ended up flying through his rear window, nearly loosing his nose in the process. As well as loosing several of his teeth.
When this "good" doctor called 911 he had admitted to the 911 operator that he wanted to teach them "a lesson," he had also repeated this statement to the first cop on the scene, i.e. his words were "I wanted to teach them a lesson."
He was also for whatever reason shocked and surprised that his victims refused to allow him to treat their injuries.
As you can see from the "good" doctor's actions that when motorists behave in a rude/inconsiderate manner that the results can be VERY catastrophic.
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
And I just have to single this one out for attention: It's almost unbelievable to me that someone would look at a row of cars stuck behind a couple of rude cyclists going 5 MPH and think "Well, that's not legally considered blocking..." I guess if a court held that the sun doesn't rise in the East you'd be arguing with the astrophysicists.
Beyond that, you can pretty much count on the fact that a couple of Lycra-clad prettyboys riding Angeles Crest on a weekend are out for recreation. So the argument is essentially that it's perfectly acceptable to take over a public road for your own enjoyment and the hell with everyone else.
And you wonder why we cyclists are angry with motorists. . .
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
You seem familiar with the road. Are you also familiar with safety considerations?
How wide is the lane there? Is the width consistent? What is the condition of the road surface far to the right? Again, is it consistent? What is the frequency of intersecting roads and high-volume driveways? What are the sight lined and how does riding FRAP change them? When was the last time you rode that stretch of road?
How wide is the lane there? Is the width consistent? What is the condition of the road surface far to the right? Again, is it consistent? What is the frequency of intersecting roads and high-volume driveways? What are the sight lined and how does riding FRAP change them? When was the last time you rode that stretch of road?
That they do, don't they.
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
It's a typical SoCal two laner in the mountains. I haven't measured it. There's enough room that non-A&S cyclists are comfortable riding the shoulder and being passed by cars. The road surface varies from year to year, but is rarely perfect anywhere. There are, for practical purposes, no intersections or driveways. Sightlines suck, which is one of the reasons the motorcyclists are constantly getting themselves killed there. I don't know what "FRAP" means. It's been about two months since I was last there.
Beyond that, I'll just note - again - the tendency of A&Sers to take a simple concept (going really slow in front of other road users is rude) and clutter it up with as much nonsense and double-speak as possible in trying to prove that rude isn't rude, as long as it's a cyclist doing it.
#31
Senior Member
#32
Senior Member
cowboy
You make a great point about a car passing 2 cyclist abreast or 2 cyclist in trail. You are absolutely right about the fact that 2 abreast means the car will be on the "wrong" side of the road for a shorter amount of time.
Here is another case of conventional "wisdom" being wrong again. We have always had it pounded into our heads that 2 abreast is a bad thing.
You make a great point about a car passing 2 cyclist abreast or 2 cyclist in trail. You are absolutely right about the fact that 2 abreast means the car will be on the "wrong" side of the road for a shorter amount of time.
Here is another case of conventional "wisdom" being wrong again. We have always had it pounded into our heads that 2 abreast is a bad thing.
What we don't know here is if the road has a double yellow center line, meaning the drivers have to wait behind the cyclists for the entire climb. I've been on climbs, as a driver, where it seemed the cyclists were giving me a dirty look over their shoulder when I waited and didn't pass, since there was no safe place to do it. If the driver is waiting behind you, just keep pedaling.
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
Posts: 73
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Actually I was trying to point out the hole in Six Jours logic that a cyclist traveling as fast as s/he is capable on a given road for a given set of circumstances is being "rude" by taking the lane. As if that's "rude" behavior than it would likewise be "rude" behavior for an Amish person driving their horse and buggy to also "block" traffic.
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 3,040
Bikes: Bacchetta Giro, Strada
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Just for the record, you are mistaken (though it is a popular misconception, and Indiana did come close over 100 years ago.)
Actually, the state that I'd heard was Arkansas.
#37
Surf Bum
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Pacifica, CA
Posts: 2,184
Bikes: Lapierre Pulsium 500 FdJ, Ritchey breakaway cyclocross, vintage trek mtb.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
3 Posts
It's just a numbers game to me. If I can do something that is slightly inconvenient to myself, but saves a lot of people more time, then I'm happy to do it.
For example, let's say I'm walking and want to cross the street. Well, it is within my legal rights to step into the crosswalk and make cars stop for me to cross. But if there is a line of ten cars coming along, I'd rather wait the 30 seconds it'll take them to pass and cross once they are gone, than to make them all stop and make ten people wait 30 seconds for me to cross. The 30 second penalty to me is better than the 5min aggregate loss from 10 people waiting 30 seconds. That's just the kind of guy I am...
When we ride our bikes, we find ourselves in similar situations all the time. If it really is a life and death situation, then sure, hold your line. But in 99% of the situations discussed in this forum, it's not that: it's just cyclists willing wasting a lot of other people's time to save themselves a few seconds or carry on with their conversation with their friend rather than inconvenience themselves a little by giving up the right-of-way for a few seconds.
For example, let's say I'm walking and want to cross the street. Well, it is within my legal rights to step into the crosswalk and make cars stop for me to cross. But if there is a line of ten cars coming along, I'd rather wait the 30 seconds it'll take them to pass and cross once they are gone, than to make them all stop and make ten people wait 30 seconds for me to cross. The 30 second penalty to me is better than the 5min aggregate loss from 10 people waiting 30 seconds. That's just the kind of guy I am...
When we ride our bikes, we find ourselves in similar situations all the time. If it really is a life and death situation, then sure, hold your line. But in 99% of the situations discussed in this forum, it's not that: it's just cyclists willing wasting a lot of other people's time to save themselves a few seconds or carry on with their conversation with their friend rather than inconvenience themselves a little by giving up the right-of-way for a few seconds.
__________________
Thirst is stronger than the rules. - Stars and Watercarriers, 1974
Thirst is stronger than the rules. - Stars and Watercarriers, 1974
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
It's just a numbers game to me. If I can do something that is slightly inconvenient to myself, but saves a lot of people more time, then I'm happy to do it.
For example, let's say I'm walking and want to cross the street. Well, it is within my legal rights to step into the crosswalk and make cars stop for me to cross. But if there is a line of ten cars coming along, I'd rather wait the 30 seconds it'll take them to pass and cross once they are gone, than to make them all stop and make ten people wait 30 seconds for me to cross. The 30 second penalty to me is better than the 5min aggregate loss from 10 people waiting 30 seconds. That's just the kind of guy I am...
When we ride our bikes, we find ourselves in similar situations all the time. If it really is a life and death situation, then sure, hold your line. But in 99% of the situations discussed in this forum, it's not that: it's just cyclists willing wasting a lot of other people's time to save themselves a few seconds or carry on with their conversation with their friend rather than inconvenience themselves a little by giving up the right-of-way for a few seconds.
For example, let's say I'm walking and want to cross the street. Well, it is within my legal rights to step into the crosswalk and make cars stop for me to cross. But if there is a line of ten cars coming along, I'd rather wait the 30 seconds it'll take them to pass and cross once they are gone, than to make them all stop and make ten people wait 30 seconds for me to cross. The 30 second penalty to me is better than the 5min aggregate loss from 10 people waiting 30 seconds. That's just the kind of guy I am...
When we ride our bikes, we find ourselves in similar situations all the time. If it really is a life and death situation, then sure, hold your line. But in 99% of the situations discussed in this forum, it's not that: it's just cyclists willing wasting a lot of other people's time to save themselves a few seconds or carry on with their conversation with their friend rather than inconvenience themselves a little by giving up the right-of-way for a few seconds.
And please tell us what makes a motorists time worth more or is more important than that of a cyclists? Shouldn't the right of anyone to get where they want to go be as important/respected as much as another?
Sadly, in today's world just about everyone is only looking out for themselves, and to hell with everyone else. As proof of that, the next time one is out on the road look around and see how many cars/pickup trucks/SUV's/etc. have ONLY the driver in them. As well as watch your neighbors and see how many of them come and go within in a short period of time. Depending on one's age, our parents, grandparents and/or great-grandparents would when making shopping trips would plan their routes so that they'd "hit" multiple "targets" and planning their routes so there was little to any doubling back. Of course some would take it to extremes.
As there were some who didn't realize that just because a store on the side of town had an item that they were looking for at say "$0.07" cheaper than a store nearby. That it probably cost twice or three times that much in gas to drive across town to get it. So they would have been "ahead" of the game by buying it from the nearby store.
#40
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: San Diego, CA USA
Posts: 389
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
IF a lane is wide enough that cyclists can ride 3 or more abreast. Than why shouldn't we be allowed to do so? I mean down here in Florida a "standard width lane" is 14' wide, so let's say we have a road that has at least two lanes for each direction of travel and it is a "standard width lane" i.e. 14' wide and if 3 cyclists can safely ride side-by-side than why shouldn't they be allowed to do so?
I'd be surprised if 14' was the standard lane width. That would be unusually wide in my experience in most states. I've never been to Florida though I have seen Keri Caffrey's videos and I didn't see 14' wide lanes.California's law (CVC 21202) requires bicyclists to keep far right but exempts them from this requirement in substandard width lanes which it defines as a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a car to share safely side by side within the lane. If it is substandard width, then they are exempt from the requirement to keep far right and can ride 2-3 abreast if they want. California law does not name an explicit number for the width of a substandard width lane. However AASHTO and most bicycle safety experts and many state laws or road design standards name 14' as the minimum width of a lane for safe side by side sharing by bicycles and cars.
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
So if I've read things correctly, if one likes to think of Pluto as the "smallest" planet they can continue to do so.
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
My understanding of Florida law from watching Keri Caffrey's videos is that if the lane if 14' or more wide, then bicyclists are required to keep far right -- which implies that they can't ride two or more abreast. If it's narrower than 14', then bicyclists are not required to keep far right, and can ride 2-3 abreast. The reasoning behind this is that if the lane is narrower than 14 feet then it is too narrow for a bicycle and a car to share safely side by side.
6' total for bicycles, 3' to travel in and the 3' passing buffer
8' for the average size automobile to travel in
California's law (CVC 21202) requires bicyclists to keep far right but exempts them from this requirement in substandard width lanes which it defines as a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a car to share safely side by side within the lane. If it is substandard width, then they are exempt from the requirement to keep far right and can ride 2-3 abreast if they want. California law does not name an explicit number for the width of a substandard width lane. However AASHTO and most bicycle safety experts and many state laws or road design standards name 14' as the minimum width of a lane for safe side by side sharing by bicycles and cars.
#43
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: San Diego, CA USA
Posts: 389
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This is a steep, twisting two lane mountain road. I've ridden it and driven it. A lone cyclist is easy to pass in a car, if the cyclist is over to the right. (Yes, I know that according to the A&S arithmeticians a cyclist's life is in danger if he's given less than 100 yards of passing space, but in reality, a few feet is fine and accepted by cyclists on mountain roads in SoCal.) A pair of cyclists, though, cannot be passed safely there unless the driver moves into the oncoming lane. There is rarely a safe opportunity for this, as there are few straight sections of any length. So cyclists "taking the lane" or riding two abreast are simply blocking traffic, regardless of what fancy word one might have for it.
Charlton Flat
That gives coordinates for the general hiking trail area, which does not appear to be the picnic area but it's probably close enough for guessing at the conditions on the road where these riders were riding.
Street View of the coordinates given for the Charlton Flat Trail Area
I see no usable shoulder and narrow lanes -- too narrow for safe lane sharing by bicycles and cars.
If a bicyclist is over to the far right, a considerate competent motorist will move at least a little into the opposite lane to pass. Unfortunately, far too many drivers are neither considerate nor competent. My experience riding on the roads in this situation is that riding in the middle, even when I'm alone causes almost all drivers to move entirely into the next lane, which means that they don't pass me close. This is even true of most of the idiots who honk and yell. When I ride to the far right in this situation, I get at least some cars passing me by mere inches almost every time. I like it better when they move into the next lane.
Now, other road users block traffic up there too. Motorhomes, older drivers, even some of the Harley guys tend to go well below the posted limit, and other road users get stacked up behind them. This is annoying, especially when they refuse to use the turnouts. But the difference is that even a slow driver is going to be doing 30 or 40 MPH. The average cyclist will be doing something like 5 MPH. I know the hard-core A&Sers will refuse to see the difference, but in the real world, that kind of behavior is just not acceptable on our SHARED roads.
The fact is that it is not hard to move over to pass safely, especially if the bicyclists are going really slow. 5mph is so slow that passing should be trivially easy. It must be really steep. I'm 47, asthmatic and and I ride a cheap touring bike. I'm not very fast but it generally takes a 10% or so grade to get me down to 5mph. On a much more common 6% grade I'm typically doing more like 8-10mph.
You seem to have a strange definition of the word "sharing".
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Originally Posted by Six jours
This is a steep, twisting two lane mountain road. I've ridden it and driven it. A lone cyclist is easy to pass in a car, if the cyclist is over to the right. (Yes, I know that according to the A&S arithmeticians a cyclist's life is in danger if he's given less than 100 yards of passing space, but in reality, a few feet is fine and accepted by cyclists on mountain roads in SoCal.) A pair of cyclists, though, cannot be passed safely there unless the driver moves into the oncoming lane. There is rarely a safe opportunity for this, as there are few straight sections of any length. So cyclists "taking the lane" or riding two abreast are simply blocking traffic, regardless of what fancy word one might have for it.
Charlton Flat
That gives coordinates for the general hiking trail area, which does not appear to be the picnic area but it's probably close enough for guessing at the conditions on the road where these riders were riding.
Street View of the coordinates given for the Charlton Flat Trail Area
I see no usable shoulder and narrow lanes -- too narrow for safe lane sharing by bicycles and cars.
If a bicyclist is over to the far right, a considerate competent motorist will move at least a little into the opposite lane to pass. Unfortunately, far too many drivers are neither considerate nor competent. My experience riding on the roads in this situation is that riding in the middle, even when I'm alone causes almost all drivers to move entirely into the next lane, which means that they don't pass me close. This is even true of most of the idiots who honk and yell. When I ride to the far right in this situation, I get at least some cars passing me by mere inches almost every time. I like it better when they move into the next lane.
Now, other road users block traffic up there too. Motorhomes, older drivers, even some of the Harley guys tend to go well below the posted limit, and other road users get stacked up behind them. This is annoying, especially when they refuse to use the turnouts. But the difference is that even a slow driver is going to be doing 30 or 40 MPH. The average cyclist will be doing something like 5 MPH. I know the hard-core A&Sers will refuse to see the difference, but in the real world, that kind of behavior is just not acceptable on our SHARED roads.
The fact is that it is not hard to move over to pass safely, especially if the bicyclists are going really slow. 5mph is so slow that passing should be trivially easy. It must be really steep. I'm 47, asthmatic and and I ride a cheap touring bike. I'm not very fast but it generally takes a 10% or so grade to get me down to 5mph. On a much more common 6% grade I'm typically doing more like 8-10mph.
You seem to have a strange definition of the word "sharing".
It does seem to be that he is one of those cyclists/motorists that seems to think that the only place for cyclists to be on the road is cowering in the gutter pan/hugging the curb. And that as soon as we hear the sound of an engine behind us that we'd better vacate the road as quickly as possible. Otherwise it'll be our "fault" if we get passed too closely or run off of the road.
I agree, if a cyclist is traveling at 5MPH they should be real easy to pass them.
That s/he does.
Today (Sunday) when I was out on my usual ride, I had a motorist who was kind enough to allow me to pass through the intersection. And as usual I waved a thanks in return. I ran into him again outside of the pizza joint that I stop off at on my ride home.
We were talking and he is bicycle friendly. As we were talking and I was thanking him and letting him know that we appreciate it when drivers are as considerate as he was. We also talked about how they (the city) was widening the sidewalk into a MUP. I explained to him that I would be inclined to use the MUP. Explaining that I usually travel too fast for it to be safe to be on the MUP. And he understood, as I used the example that as much as we don't appreciate traffic passing us at 40MPH with inches to spare, that he wouldn't appreciate having cyclists passing him on the MUP traveling at 15 - 20MPH with inches to spare, and not surprisingly he got it.
#45
Bicikli Huszár
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 2,116
Bikes: '95 Novara Randonee
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
You do know that there have been court cases that dispute your "ascertain" that a cyclist who is traveling at a speed that is reasonable for their mode of transportation is NOT "blocking" or "impeding" traffic right? Do you expect someone who is using a bicycle for transportation to "avoid" those particular road just because they "might" slow down and inconvenience some motorist?
It's not about speed or rights or court cases and blablabla. It's about common courtesy and safety in the real world. A single rider on Angeles Crest Highway can be passed safely if the rider is over to the right. Two riders side-by-side cannot. It's unnecessary and rude and shows exactly the kind of contempt for other road users that A&Sers are always complaining about from drivers.
#46
Bicikli Huszár
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 2,116
Bikes: '95 Novara Randonee
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
It's just a numbers game to me. If I can do something that is slightly inconvenient to myself, but saves a lot of people more time, then I'm happy to do it.
For example, let's say I'm walking and want to cross the street. Well, it is within my legal rights to step into the crosswalk and make cars stop for me to cross. But if there is a line of ten cars coming along, I'd rather wait the 30 seconds it'll take them to pass and cross once they are gone, than to make them all stop and make ten people wait 30 seconds for me to cross. The 30 second penalty to me is better than the 5min aggregate loss from 10 people waiting 30 seconds. That's just the kind of guy I am...
When we ride our bikes, we find ourselves in similar situations all the time. If it really is a life and death situation, then sure, hold your line. But in 99% of the situations discussed in this forum, it's not that: it's just cyclists willing wasting a lot of other people's time to save themselves a few seconds or carry on with their conversation with their friend rather than inconvenience themselves a little by giving up the right-of-way for a few seconds.
For example, let's say I'm walking and want to cross the street. Well, it is within my legal rights to step into the crosswalk and make cars stop for me to cross. But if there is a line of ten cars coming along, I'd rather wait the 30 seconds it'll take them to pass and cross once they are gone, than to make them all stop and make ten people wait 30 seconds for me to cross. The 30 second penalty to me is better than the 5min aggregate loss from 10 people waiting 30 seconds. That's just the kind of guy I am...
When we ride our bikes, we find ourselves in similar situations all the time. If it really is a life and death situation, then sure, hold your line. But in 99% of the situations discussed in this forum, it's not that: it's just cyclists willing wasting a lot of other people's time to save themselves a few seconds or carry on with their conversation with their friend rather than inconvenience themselves a little by giving up the right-of-way for a few seconds.
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 379
Bikes: SR, Bianchi, Raleigh, Bertin, Kona, Schwinn, Eisentraut, Zunow, Columbine, Naked, Nishiki, Phillips, Specialized, Giant
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Beyond that, you can pretty much count on the fact that a couple of Lycra-clad prettyboys riding Angeles Crest on a weekend are out for recreation. So the argument is essentially that it's perfectly acceptable to take over a public road for your own enjoyment and the hell with everyone else.
And A&Sers wonder why drivers are so angry with cyclists...
And A&Sers wonder why drivers are so angry with cyclists...
I can't let you have a pass on this comment.
The public roads are in fact for the enjoyment and private pursuits of all of us citizens! Unless someone has red and/or blue flashing lights on the roof, their "in-a-hurry" situation is no more important than my right to travel. It does not matter if someone is going to work or going to play, there is no hierarchy of travel.
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,401
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times
in
13 Posts
Also so than, I guess from the above statements that you didn't see anything wrong with what that former ER doctor out in LA did to the various cyclists. In particular the last two that even though they were riding at the speed limit (or close enough to the posted speed limit as not to really make any difference) and were riding two abreast. He swoops around them and brakes fast in front of them. One of them ending up with a severe case of road rash, the other ended up flying through his rear window, nearly loosing his nose in the process. As well as loosing several of his teeth.
But as it happens, it's a teachable moment. The road on which that particular incident happened is extremely popular for recreational cycling. The behavior of cyclists over the last decade or so has resulted in pure hatred from local residents and motorists. Cyclists take over the whole road, urinate on resident's lawns, and just generally behave as if the whole place is their personal playground. The road actually is wide enough that cyclists can ride two-up and still allow safe passing, but they often take the middle of the road anyway, or ride three, four, or five abreast, or just in a big loose packs, giving everyone the finger, pounding on hoods, and just generally being as obnoxious as they possibly can. Incidents like the one with the doctor, while inexcusable, are also inevitable.
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,401
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times
in
13 Posts
You're so sure of that, huh? And uh, how many motorists who are also on Angeles Crest on the weekend are likewise out for recreation? Why I are they considered to be more important than the cyclists? How many motorists just "take over" the public roads for their enjoyment?
I don't notice that in the real world. It's only on this thread.
#50
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,401
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times
in
13 Posts
FRAP=As Far Right As Practicable. Are you sure that they "feel comfortable" with the road position that has been "forced" on them by rude/inconsiderate motorists? If the road, and it's sight lines are as bad as you claim that the safest (being as that is one of your alleged concerns) place for cyclists is to take the lane so that motorists coming up behind them can see them and know that they are there. Doesn't that make sense?
If the buggy could be out of the road, then yes, it would be rude. But it can't, so it's not. The cyclists can be out of the road, at least in this scenario