Have you given up the car?
11-29-18, 04:53 PM
#151
Virgo
Only motorists need to distinguish between a bike rider and a cyclist. The distinction is useless to anybody else.
11-29-18, 05:51 PM
#152
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Hey @noglider (Tom),
See this post on A&S, "New York City Cycling -- CRAZY!!!"
It’s one of the few I have watched from beginning to end (7:21).
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 11-29-18 at 07:14 PM.
11-29-18, 06:01 PM
#153
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…It reminded me of the brouhaha on the General Cycling Discussion thread, “Do Cyclists Have a Negative Reputation?,” about the difference between a cyclist and a bike rider.
11-29-18, 07:26 PM
#154
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11-29-18, 09:23 PM
#155
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11-29-18, 09:57 PM
#157
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Yeah that video is both crazy and representative of life on our streets.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
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Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
11-29-18, 10:48 PM
#158
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11-30-18, 09:44 AM
#159
born again cyclist
i'm confused. what is this alleged distinction between a bike rider and a cyclist that people keep referencing?
11-30-18, 10:40 AM
#160
aka Tom Reingold
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I can only guess, and I think it's useless or stupid.
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Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
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11-30-18, 11:14 AM
#161
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As a board member of BikeDFW, our local advocacy organization, we try and stay away from the word "cyclist." It can come off as kind of pretentious or exclusive to some. In our literature, any time we can, we use, "people on bikes" or some such. Our Director of Communications is pretty good at aiming our communications at the everyday Joe. Our goal is to get more people on bikes and anyone who refers to themselves as a cyclist is probably already on a bike. We are trying to reach those who have a bike in the garage that's been gathering dust for a few years. We try and educate them on ways to make use of it. "More butts on bikes" is almost our motto.
11-30-18, 11:18 AM
#162
born again cyclist
^ so, is it like the distinction between a "gearhead" and a "car driver"?
"cyclists" eat, breath, and $h!t all things bicycle, whereas "bike riders" merely ride bicycles?
"cyclists" eat, breath, and $h!t all things bicycle, whereas "bike riders" merely ride bicycles?
11-30-18, 11:19 AM
#163
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So, @noglider , if I may ask, do you cycle commute because a car is a liability, or as frugality / delayed gratification to save money for “what remains a mystery,” perhaps the upstate second home…
Thanks, Tom, for your frank reply. I hope though you recognized my question as a tongue-in-cheek rhetorical one as a metaphor for the preceding kerfluffle about the how’s and why’s of Living Car Light, and the accounting of the cost savings.
It reminded me of the brouhaha on the General Cycling Discussion thread, “Do Cyclists Have a Negative Reputation?,”about the difference between a cyclist and a bike rider.
It reminded me of the brouhaha on the General Cycling Discussion thread, “Do Cyclists Have a Negative Reputation?,”about the difference between a cyclist and a bike rider.
Anybody who happens to be riding a bike at a given moment, or who intends to do so regularly, is a cyclist.
Look at images from Internet search "people riding bikes" . Then search "cyclist"
One group all have cleats, the others mostly do not. The Internet knows.
One group all have cleats, the others mostly do not. The Internet knows.
…I do agree that there probably is a difference between bike riding and cycling, though I think the difference is decided by the one who cares.
For me, the breakpoint is probably pretty high…
For me, the breakpoint is probably pretty high…
As so often happens on Bike Forums, someone picked up on this offhand remark, and ran with it on this current thread.
But that issue has been has been a point of contention on Bike Forums a few times previously, e.g.:
Bike Lovers vs Bike Snobs
...See, this is fun. You serious folks are not so much fun.....
...See, this is fun. You serious folks are not so much fun.....
+10 to the serious folk. This thread seems based on a holier-than-thou mentality, not unlike these two previous threads:
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 11-30-18 at 11:37 AM.
11-30-18, 11:25 AM
#164
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I suppose so. When I first started bicycle commuting, if someone referred to me as a cyclist, I'd say, "Nah. I'm just a guy who rides a bike to work." I hated the idea of being associated with the lycra-clad folks I saw around town. Now, I commute in lycra every day. Go figure.
11-30-18, 12:16 PM
#165
Keepin it Wheel
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Sometimes I find I have to use the word "cyclist" because "biker" is often interpreted as "motorcyclist". "Bicyclist" perhaps comes off as a little more old-timey, with less potential for perceived snobbishness
11-30-18, 01:22 PM
#166
Virgo
"Cyclist" conjures different images for everybody. It's a self-applied term without an agreed definition. The distinction between a cyclist and a person on a bike is useless and only able to be made by the person on the bike. It wasn't until I sold my car and started riding my bike instead that I realized the distinction was imaginary/useless. It doesn't serve anybody on a bicycle to decide whether or not anybody else on a bicycle is a "person on a bike" or a "cyclist". It makes no difference to a pedestrian. Motorists (including those who also ride bicycles) are the only ones who seem to me to care to try to make any distinction, although as I said it's a useless distinction. I don't understand why anybody would try. I don't know why I ever cared.
This is maybe bordering on a rant, but from what I've noticed most of those who argue the loudest on "car-free" or "bicycle safety and advocacy" topics/boards/sites are those who primarily drive a car. Not just on this forum, but all over.
Regarding the reasons for going "car-free", "car-light" or whatever, the financial reasons are one and a valid one for a lot of people - not everybody. Environmental? No, one person on a bike isn't going to make a difference. But it's leading by example, and I think anybody who rides a bike instead of driving to work/the store/whatever deserves to take a little satisfaction in setting a good example socially. Health - the effects of riding a bicycle vs driving a car are obvious. But one that I don't hear as many people say is the sheer challenge of it. And I think that's what people who have never "taken the plunge" will never be able to appreciate/understand until they do. It also won't be the same challenge for one who has never owned a car or one who already lives within walking distance of life's necessities. But it's a good challenge, a healthy one, and harmless. So though I don't spend time on car-free discussion boards anymore, I do defend those who try to live car-free or car-light. There are fanatics everywhere, people who get stuck on this idea or that idea or take things to an extreme. Living without a car is a harmless extreme. Living frugally is a harmless extreme.
Edit: additional thought - splitting hairs between what defines "car-free" or "car-light" in my experience is a debate that mostly motorists participate in, for whatever reason.
This is maybe bordering on a rant, but from what I've noticed most of those who argue the loudest on "car-free" or "bicycle safety and advocacy" topics/boards/sites are those who primarily drive a car. Not just on this forum, but all over.
Regarding the reasons for going "car-free", "car-light" or whatever, the financial reasons are one and a valid one for a lot of people - not everybody. Environmental? No, one person on a bike isn't going to make a difference. But it's leading by example, and I think anybody who rides a bike instead of driving to work/the store/whatever deserves to take a little satisfaction in setting a good example socially. Health - the effects of riding a bicycle vs driving a car are obvious. But one that I don't hear as many people say is the sheer challenge of it. And I think that's what people who have never "taken the plunge" will never be able to appreciate/understand until they do. It also won't be the same challenge for one who has never owned a car or one who already lives within walking distance of life's necessities. But it's a good challenge, a healthy one, and harmless. So though I don't spend time on car-free discussion boards anymore, I do defend those who try to live car-free or car-light. There are fanatics everywhere, people who get stuck on this idea or that idea or take things to an extreme. Living without a car is a harmless extreme. Living frugally is a harmless extreme.
Edit: additional thought - splitting hairs between what defines "car-free" or "car-light" in my experience is a debate that mostly motorists participate in, for whatever reason.
Last edited by Phamilton; 11-30-18 at 02:16 PM.
11-30-18, 02:09 PM
#167
Banned
Yeah that video is both crazy and representative of life on our streets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dgXx_WOleQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dgXx_WOleQ
Just go with the flow.
While not Manhattan, it is dense around here:
slightly out of the city it is a little better
11-30-18, 02:15 PM
#168
born again cyclist
Regarding the reasons for going "car-free", "car-light" or whatever, the financial reasons are one and a valid one for a lot of people - not everybody. Environmental? No, one person on a bike isn't going to make a difference. But it's leading by example, and I think anybody who rides a bike instead of driving to work/the store/whatever deserves to take a little satisfaction in setting a good example socially.
among the myriad reasons to be car-free, car-light, or whatever, i probably have an outlier one: aesthetic.
i simply don't care for the way that places designed and built primarily/exclusively for cars look and feel (which is the lion's share of post-war america).
i've always been drawn to the human scale of the urban city, and as such, kinda backed myself into this lifestyle more than it being a fully conscious choice on my part.
all of the other benefits, to the extent that they exist (better health, money saved, smaller carbon foot-print, whatever), have been happy accidents growing out of my love for urban living.
what can i say, i'm just a fool for the city.
Last edited by Steely Dan; 11-30-18 at 04:54 PM.
11-30-18, 02:28 PM
#169
Virgo
"you must be the change you wish to see in the world"
among the myriad reason to be car-free, car-light, or whatever, i probably have an outlier one: aesthetic.
i simply don't care for the way that places designed and built primarily/exclusively for cars look and feel (which is the lion's share of post-war america).
i've always been drawn to the human scale of the urban city, and as such, kinda backed myself into this lifestyle more than it being a fully conscious choice on my part.
all of the other benefits, to the extent that they exist (better health, money saved, smaller carbon foot-print, whatever), have been happy accidents growing out of my love for urban living.
i'm a fool for the city.
among the myriad reason to be car-free, car-light, or whatever, i probably have an outlier one: aesthetic.
i simply don't care for the way that places designed and built primarily/exclusively for cars look and feel (which is the lion's share of post-war america).
i've always been drawn to the human scale of the urban city, and as such, kinda backed myself into this lifestyle more than it being a fully conscious choice on my part.
all of the other benefits, to the extent that they exist (better health, money saved, smaller carbon foot-print, whatever), have been happy accidents growing out of my love for urban living.
i'm a fool for the city.
11-30-18, 06:06 PM
#170
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"you must be the change you wish to see in the world"
among the myriad reasons to be car-free, car-light, or whatever, i probably have an outlier one: aesthetic.
i simply don't care for the way that places designed and built primarily/exclusively for cars look and feel (which is the lion's share of post-war america).
i've always been drawn to the human scale of the urban city, and as such, kinda backed myself into this lifestyle more than it being a fully conscious choice on my part.
all of the other benefits, to the extent that they exist (better health, money saved, smaller carbon foot-print, whatever), have been happy accidents growing out of my love for urban living.
what can i say, i'm just a fool for the city.
among the myriad reasons to be car-free, car-light, or whatever, i probably have an outlier one: aesthetic.
i simply don't care for the way that places designed and built primarily/exclusively for cars look and feel (which is the lion's share of post-war america).
i've always been drawn to the human scale of the urban city, and as such, kinda backed myself into this lifestyle more than it being a fully conscious choice on my part.
all of the other benefits, to the extent that they exist (better health, money saved, smaller carbon foot-print, whatever), have been happy accidents growing out of my love for urban living.
what can i say, i'm just a fool for the city.
People walk a lot more in places where there is somewhere to walk. But in much of the US, housing is relatively far from anywhere people want to go. And if you want to walk from your home to a nearby restaurant and that involves crossing a six lane highway and walking across a large parking lot, the journey is much less appealing.
Some cities are seeing revitalization of urban neighborhoods that allow people to walk to shops and restaurants. But these will never accommodate more than a small percentage of the population.
The best way to encourage people to do things without a car is to put those things closer to their homes. But the US has developed in such a way that it's now much harder to do that.
Some cities are seeing revitalization of urban neighborhoods that allow people to walk to shops and restaurants. But these will never accommodate more than a small percentage of the population.
The best way to encourage people to do things without a car is to put those things closer to their homes. But the US has developed in such a way that it's now much harder to do that.
Some cities never lost those neighborhoods, like Boston. It seems to me that in order to be an attractive place to support a variety of restaurants and shops to which to walk … a neighborhood must be a large area with a substantial, dense population living there, likely that evolved in the pre-automotive era.
I think a lot of urban revitalization projects tend to create enclaves as driving destinations to walk around in such large cities like in my native Detroit.
One of my greatest complaints about the automotive industry/culture is that by by intent, or just popular acceptance, previously vitalized neighborhoods just whithered away, and deprived the citizens of the choice to Live Car Free.
:
I think a lot of urban revitalization projects tend to create enclaves as driving destinations to walk around in such large cities like in my native Detroit.
One of my greatest complaints about the automotive industry/culture is that by by intent, or just popular acceptance, previously vitalized neighborhoods just whithered away, and deprived the citizens of the choice to Live Car Free.
: How To Live A Car Free Life
…I think we can agree that LCF, as discussed above is mostly a lifestyle choice (excepting circumstances like poverty, revocation of driver’s license…).
When I was asked a few years before starting my career, while living in Boston,“Where would you like to live?.” my criteria were living near a big body of water, and the ability to live without a car as I had been much of my earlier two-plus decades; and I was already an avid cyclist.
I learned to love the water from the Great Lakes in Michigan, and the Atlantic Ocean in Boston. I vaguely considered my ambition not as “Car Free," per se, but a lifestyle choice. Through certain life circumstances I was already primed to be Car Free.
Fortunately I found a happy career here in Boston, and Living Car Free then became easy. So as a corollary to not arguing about what we want, should we rather discuss how we obtain our goals. By choice or luck?
…I think we can agree that LCF, as discussed above is mostly a lifestyle choice (excepting circumstances like poverty, revocation of driver’s license…).
When I was asked a few years before starting my career, while living in Boston,“Where would you like to live?.” my criteria were living near a big body of water, and the ability to live without a car as I had been much of my earlier two-plus decades; and I was already an avid cyclist.
I learned to love the water from the Great Lakes in Michigan, and the Atlantic Ocean in Boston. I vaguely considered my ambition not as “Car Free," per se, but a lifestyle choice. Through certain life circumstances I was already primed to be Car Free.
Fortunately I found a happy career here in Boston, and Living Car Free then became easy. So as a corollary to not arguing about what we want, should we rather discuss how we obtain our goals. By choice or luck?
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 11-30-18 at 06:13 PM.
12-01-18, 03:42 AM
#171
Banned
"you must be the change you wish to see in the world"
among the myriad reasons to be car-free, car-light, or whatever, i probably have an outlier one: aesthetic.
i simply don't care for the way that places designed and built primarily/exclusively for cars look and feel (which is the lion's share of post-war america).
i've always been drawn to the human scale of the urban city, and as such, kinda backed myself into this lifestyle more than it being a fully conscious choice on my part.
all of the other benefits, to the extent that they exist (better health, money saved, smaller carbon foot-print, whatever), have been happy accidents growing out of my love for urban living.
what can i say, i'm just a fool for the city.
among the myriad reasons to be car-free, car-light, or whatever, i probably have an outlier one: aesthetic.
i simply don't care for the way that places designed and built primarily/exclusively for cars look and feel (which is the lion's share of post-war america).
i've always been drawn to the human scale of the urban city, and as such, kinda backed myself into this lifestyle more than it being a fully conscious choice on my part.
all of the other benefits, to the extent that they exist (better health, money saved, smaller carbon foot-print, whatever), have been happy accidents growing out of my love for urban living.
what can i say, i'm just a fool for the city.
Then I moved to Europe and WOW, that's how it should be done. The history just oozes from the pavement upward. When I jog/run in the morning, I run by the area where D-day was launched, the world's oldest drydock and some of the launching points for the initial ships that sent prisoners to Australia.
Having said that, I prefer the continent when many of the recent wars have taken place and where the barbaric cities (north of the Roman empire) still exist.
I have to say that I've lived around many parts of the US (TX/ME/NH/NY/FL) and have visited most of it but have somehow missed Chicago which needs to be rectified soon. It's just that I find travelling to the US very expensive compared to the Middle East/Asia on an existence basis (lodging/food/transport). Chicago sees to have been built (mostly) during the golden age of US architecture (Art Deco) as it must ooze from it, so you're quite lucky!
12-01-18, 01:08 PM
#173
20+mph Commuter
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Although I am not offended by "cyclist" as I like the economy of words, I do find it dehumanizing. "Person on a bike" is much better. By definition, I am a cyclist WHILE riding my bike, I can accept that. Once I dismount, please don't call me that. It lumps me into a group that I am really not a part of. I use a bike to get around. My wife would not consider herself a "motorist" any more than I consider myself a "cyclist'.
Especially the news of a "Person on a bike" hit by a car is much more humanizing than a "cyclist".
I appreciate your sensitivity.
Last edited by JoeyBike; 12-01-18 at 01:12 PM.
12-01-18, 09:51 PM
#174
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I like cars so I'm not giving up mine. If I become too old or disabled to drive I can see giving up the car.
12-02-18, 11:01 AM
#175
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It'd be pretty hard to do the things I like to do without a vehicle.
Like a week of deer hunting 250 miles North in the federal forest.
I'll still bike commute 1600-4000 miles a year, but we get a winter here, and being on call 24/7/365, I'm not getting woken up at 2 AM when it's -10F and biking in to put in 12-24 hours and biking home.
If not having a vehicle works for you - awesome, but there is a large percent of bike commuters it doesn't, and never will work for.
Deer Camp
Like a week of deer hunting 250 miles North in the federal forest.
I'll still bike commute 1600-4000 miles a year, but we get a winter here, and being on call 24/7/365, I'm not getting woken up at 2 AM when it's -10F and biking in to put in 12-24 hours and biking home.
If not having a vehicle works for you - awesome, but there is a large percent of bike commuters it doesn't, and never will work for.
Deer Camp
