noglider 

I'm a singer, so I believe in rehearsal. I practice falling, and it has helped me a lot. I stumbled on this when I was teaching adults to ride a bike. Some were anxious, so to allay their anxiety, I took them to soft, grassy ground and had them do "stage falls" from a standing position. I did it first, to show them. Bend your ankle to the side, then fall on your knee, then hip, then elbow, then shoulder. Do it in slow motion. No need to do it fast and hard. I've fallen a few times in recent years, and I ended up falling in that way because the practice had ingrained it in me. Thanks for the reminder with this thread. It's time for me to practice.

The last time I fell off the bike, it went so well, that I kept checking myself to find the pain, and I couldn't find any. People saw my fall and came running to help. I got up and smiled. I walked for a quarter-mile to make sure I wasn't in shock but realizing I was fine, I got back on the bike.

I also practice using ABS brakes in the car after the first snowfall of the winter. When ABS kicks in, my reflex is to back off, and that's wrong. So I find a slippery slope and jam on the brakes to adjust my reflex for when I really have a slip.

cyccommute 

I'm not really thin but my handlebars tend to be wider than my body in most of my crashes. The number of crashes I have on a mountain bike with 630mm wide handlebars is significantly more than on a road bike with 440mm handlebars. My hips and shoulders take their fair share of abuse but I still stay with the bike as much as possible because it can take more impact than I can. Or, more to the point, the bike's impact isn't as physically painful.

I agree. I've seen lots and lots of injuries to people who have tried to "catch themselves". They can't so why even try?

Yes, of course. But a broken bone is harder to heal in my experience. I've had both...numerous times

I crash with appalling regularity. It's not that I "practice" crashing but I have the mindset of being prepared for crashing by relaxing when it happens. That takes some effort since our instincts are to try to stop ourselves from falling. At walking speed, catching yourself is fairly easy and probably won't result in too much injury. But bicycling isn't at "walking speed" and the same act of trying to "catching yourself" is going to result in injuries for the same reason you've stated above.

And, no, I don't need a trike. I'm just a stupid old fart who mountain bikes.

livedarklions

I think it's an instinctive reaction we developed to catch ourselves when we are falling from a walking position. Sure, you can injure yourself catching yourself from a walking fall that way, but probably less severely than not catching yourself at all. I haven't looked into this, but it seems to me that the overwhelming physical impulse is to do anything that prevents your head from slamming into the ground. The added speed of a moving cycle is just too much energy to catch through the outstretched arms, hands and shoulders without likelihood of serious injury.

wphamilton

I'm sure you've seen pictures like this.





His legs aren't haphazardly flopping - he has positioned himself precisely at his feet, his hip, and the angle of his shoulder. His right foot is "planted" taking a portion of the impact, and his left arm has already pounded the floor to ease the impact on his shoulder.


You can absolutely do this on a low slide fall off a bike, if you are quick enough. You *could* do it over the bars - the bikes speed does not stop you - but you would prefer a less jarring technique.



With all due respect, having no training and no knowledge, you might refrain from making pronouncements about it. You have described it incorrectly here, the bolded part diametrically wrong. I don't have any problem with your advice for people who don't know how to fall, and don't need to put the time it takes into learning it, but you shouldn't be misinforming them about how to protect themselves vastly more effectively.


You guys with the "added speed of the bicycle" - you realize that the added speed is parallel to the ground, and doesn't add anything to the vertical impact of the fall, right? The impact you feel from the speed is added by deceleration from friction, and whatever rises from the surface, including "concave up" shaped road grade. On a flat and smooth road, you could fall at 100 mph and that fall is not the danger. Getting part of your body wrenched back, or sliding into something, is where the danger is.

indyfabz

This thread is pretty much on schedule.

cyccommute 

Exactly.

indyfabz

Do-eet, record it and post the vid.

cyccommute 

Put a bicycle between his legs. He couldn't "plant" his foot to take a portion of the impact because there is a gear in the way. The bicycle also increase the mass of the system which will change the dynamics of the impact. Also increase the speed the person being throw before the throw and see how quickly he can react to the impact with the ground.



How many crashes are "low slides". Sure you eventually get to the ground but you are falling from a height that is slightly higher than your standing height. Plus there is momentum to consider.


The person getting throw is loose in joint and muscles. They may have some contact with the ground but they aren't trying to stop the fall. On the other hand, are you saying that people should tense up and stick out limbs in an attempt to "catch themselves" during a fall?


Say WHAT?!!! The speed at which you fall isn't divided up into vectors. You can describe it with vectors and assign a value to the different components of the speed but you can't say that you won't be hurt because you are only falling over about 5 feet. A shell fired horizontally from a cannon only has a vertical fall from the cannon's mouth to the ground. The vertical component of the speed of the shell is only going the speed due to the pull of gravity. That doesn't mean that the shell won't do damage if it hits you. There's still the horizontal speed to consider.

If you fall at 100 mph on a smooth, flat road, you aren't likely to survive the fall.

base2 

All the times I've come off my bike, I held on to the handlebars for dear life as the bike went down, hit the ground, seperated & rolled. It's not like there was ever time for much else.

If you have time to plan how to catch yourself, you had time to avoid the crash to begin with. Just going with whatever the bad situation threw at you is often better than trying to keep your old plans or exercising control as the situation unfolds.

This works for high-speed snowboarding as well.

FWIW: 1 concussion, 2 broken helmets, & no broken bones to speak of.

wphamilton

No there isn't, because you deliberately separate from the bike. I've done it many times. And if you can't position one foot, you do the rest of it. It's not an all or nothing thing.



No it doesn't.



The same amount of time regardless of bike velocity. My fastest wreck was on a motorcycle, about 65 mph, thrown over and above a van. Maybe a hundred feet, I'm not sure. This was before I learned any martial art and I'd had hundreds of off-road motorcycle crashes before then and figured I was pretty good at it, but I had learned a little in a couple of months of stunt-man fall training. I did a back-fall btw, bounced to my feet without a scratch and realized just how less effective "just falling" was.



The ones that actually hurt me, where not coincidentally I did go down with the bike like you suggest and didn't react quickly, flopping like a "rag doll" as you suggest.


Regarding your thought example, if your cannon shell is a cylinder and grazes your body, the only damage you'll see is due to the force of friction from the shell and your skin and clothes. If on the other hand the shell is conical, that's not like hitting the flat ground. That would be a rise in the ground in front of you, as I mentioned earlier.


It might not be worth someone's time for just bicycle crashes, but that's OP's question and I want to reassure anyone reading to disregard the deprecations. If you're skeptical about me - nothing intrinsically wrong with that - you can visit a dojo, find someone who also rides motorcycles or bicycles and *also* is an expert in falling techniques, and ask their story.

Marci

Used to practice falls with the horse. But I think the easiest fall off my bike was a couple weeks ago. Looking sideways to see is friends bike light was on I ran into curb. Slid along it making horrid noise until all but stopped, then like the laugh in tricycle rider Artie Johnson just fell over. No bruises of anything. LOL Thankfully in dirt too. But I did have to climb out from under bike. But I do have to say since its a semi recumbent it was like coming off a shetland pony. LOL
But I was having trouble with my last bike and crashes since I couldn't touch the ground, short legs bad knees. But the semi recumbent has saved me more than a few times as a leg stuck out catches me before I hit dirt. I had the handlebar come back and break a rib with my Specialized. That hurt.
But nothing compared to all the falls I have had off horses over the years, usually launched too so much higher and farther. But then that is why I ride bikes now instead, really screwed my back up one time and then time did the rest... Bikes are so much easier.

livedarklions

Well, that's wrong. From experience, if you go over the handlebars, you arc into the ground combining forward momentum and gravity. The ground is not just stopping your fall, it's also stopping your forward momentum. It hurts a whole hell of lot more than a relatively straight drop.

I'm surprised you made this mistake--the logical conclusion from your statement is that it makes no difference if you fall from a standing position or get thrown from a motorcycle at 50 mph.

79pmooney

My racing days mantra - "don't let go of the handlebars until after I hit the road". When I followed that mantra, I almost always could ride home. Exceptions have been with cars and bike failures.

Most of my crashes have happened with toeclips, straps and slotted cleats. With quality straps pulled tight, pulling a foot out is not a good bet. I learned to put as much skin on the road as possible. The more lost, the shallower the wounds, the faster the heal and the fewest long term consequences.

And while we are talking about how to prepare for crashes; the easy one - shave your legs. Less road rash (no hairs pulling you skin off), cleaner wounds, faster recovery, a much more pleasant experience with tape and bandages and you get to hear those sweet words if you end up in ER "thank you for shaving so I don't have to".

Ben

79pmooney

When you go over the bars, the ground is NOT the same distance down. As the front wheel is slowed, you get tossed UP so you come down further. Think about it. The bike is acting as a lever, actually a catapult. The exception is when the fork fails completely of its own accord or before energy is impartted. Then it cannot toss you up. The vertical impact will be the same as that of a lower speed crash, but the total deceleration will be higher if there is friction between you and the road. (You do better going over the bars when you ride on ice, but accomplishing that is a challenge. I've never succeeded and I've crashed many times on ice and snow.)

Ben

wphamilton

Not if you roll (shoulder roll is my preference). The impact is from primarily the force of gravity, a drop from X feet, regardless of how fast you're going when your roll is quick enough to not slide. Obviously there is a limit to that.

I would much rather fall forward than to the side because a low-side fall gives you no opportunity for a roll, and it usually happens more quickly.

In my experience if you're "thrown" from a motorcycle, you hit something and most likely the bike pivoted around the front wheel, throwing you up as well. You'd fall for a greater distance. But it's no mistake, the initial impact on level ground is primarily from the height of the fall plus force arising from friction at right angles to it. I know it's not intuitive to most people, but feel free to check up on me with a physics professor who's spent too much time crashing motorcycles or bikes, and/or also trained in some physical art involving tumbling.

caloso

Same. I once crashed in a race that destroyed my kit, my helmet, and my bike, but walked it off and raced the next day (with a fair amount of tegaderm). Hands were still on the bar when I hit (destroyed the back of my glove, not the palm).

63rickert

Two crashes in five weeks is a problem. Glad they were minor. It could be random, far more likely there is some reason this incident repeats. As a counter-example last time I came off the bike was August 1999. Last time I was hit on a bike was last Friday and was also hit last Tuesday. Did not fall.

If the bike still has a ghost of a hint of traction, any connection to pavement at all, and there is any place to go, stay with the bike. Bikes are phenomenally stable. The bike is likely to right itself if you let it. Plus the longer you stay with the bike the slower you are going and the closer you got to ground at something less than free fall speed.

Once the bike is a missile you don't have any use for the bike. The bike can even be a hazard. It will not protect you. Let go of the bike. There are times you really had better let go of the bike. Example. Car pulls abruptly out of driveway, blocking your path. Impossible to see it coming, there was a van parked in wrong spot. Oncoming traffic in other lane. No time to brake. No where to go. You are going to hit that car. Get off the bike. Do not crash as baggage on that bike. And basically never be baggage.

Get thrown from bike there is always possibility you go up before you go down. Falling from height is far worse. Dropping bike or stepping off the bike is preferable to being thrown. If you can do anything about this one that is, you may not have the choice or ability to predict.

Most enthusiasts set position on the bike to develop power. Every 'fitter' is looking to maximize power. Positioning can also be done for stability. Stable means down and stable means back. The bike goes very slow lying on the pavement and a cyclist goes very slow in a hospital bed. Average speed may be higher if the bike is more stable and easier to control. And moving. Even an inch less vertical fall makes the fall easier and a saddle an inch lower will always make the bike more stable.

Youtube is full of high speed motorcycle crashes w/o injury if any wish to be convinced it is possible.

Maelochs

Ah .... I see. Off-road, I used to crash a Lot. I tis the nature of the riding ... always trying to clear a slightly tougher obstacle. I was actually making silly, snide remarks about the OP when I mentioned a tricycle ... but yes, off-road is entirely different .... well, I haven't ridden off-road since the last time i broke my collarbone because I haven't fully recovered my fitness ....

I keep looking at my Cannopndale Rize and wishing ... but I keep not getting it down off the rack. Hopefully i get some endurance back over the winter ... it is a beautiful bike with far too fee miles and it survives crashes better than I do.

FiftySix

Probably a lesson to be learned here.

cyccommute 

No, you don't get thrown up. Your center of gravity continues in the same line it was going it before the crash. Basic physics.

cyccommute 

Your grasp of physics is all wrong. If your model were right, we could step from a speeding car and all that we'd have to deal with is the step. According to your way of thinking, we shouldn't ever experience any kind of injury that isn't involved with vertical speed. That's just wrong. Forward momentum has consequences too.

cyccommute 

Correct. If you can fight to stay upright and slow down. But that'n not always possible.

I agree that the bike could be a hazard but only if you let it go. Bicycles aren't motorcycles. Motorcycles have a lot more mass than the rider and, in the event of a crash, the motorcycle will slide further. Bicycles have less mass than the rider so the rider is the one who will slide further. Letting go of the bicycle turns it into a slower missile that you are sliding with. It is likely to tumble and hit the rider thus increasing the chance of injury.

BengalCat

If you have adequate warning of the unavoidable impending crash it depends upon the circumstances on what you can or should do. If you have no warning there is with rare exceptions nothing you can do. It will be over with before you know about it.

bobwysiwyg

I read through this entire thread, it rang true to me. I marveled at the forethought and strategies. Thinking I must be some dolt. My two accidents, one non-cycling, one cycling. The first was while trying to take a photo during a storm. The second, clearly my fault making a last second change while riding. Both happened instantly. The idea of how to roll, land, etc. is a figment of imagination.

Maelochs

Okay. Firsdt of all ... sorry, but the idea that speed is irrelvant is Nonsense. Your speed increases the force with which you hit (F=MA.) If you are falling standing, or falling while moving forward at 20 mph, you will Not hit with the same force. Sorry, it's physics.

Anyone who doubts this, have a friend drive you down the highway; when the car hits 65 mph, gently step out of the car. You will only be falling six inches so you come back and tell us about it. Thanks.

As for reaction time---it is partly training, partly reflex.

I Always fight to stay up because I Don't Like Crashing. Can't pinpoint why ... maybe the damage to the bike, maybe the damage to the rider ... some reason.

If I have time.

Some crashes have been so fast, I was hitting pavement before I could move ... maybe a slight twist, but nothing to mitigate the force. other times, I have used a variety of techniques, with more or less success. If I practiced more, I would do it more naturally, but still, some wrecks happen way too fast.

But not all of them. People can Claim that if I could fall with control, I could ride with control and stop the wreck. Those people simply do not know,. Others claim that there is never time to do anything but flop around. Those people simply do not know.

I have been riding on the road, in traffic, for fifty years. I have a bunch of miles off-road. I have crashed a fair bit.

Thing is ... no one needs to validate me. I live my life, so when someone comes along and tells me what I have done is impossible ... okay. Whatever you need to believe.

I will check myself, when someone I respect contests a point. Sometimes my experiences were real but my interpretations were incorrect. obviously I am not infallible or I wouldn't be writing in a thread about crashing.