Real differences between racing and endurance bikes if geometry is similar
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 88
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times
in
18 Posts
Real differences between racing and endurance bikes if geometry is similar
I've been getting serious about riding this year, and plan to train over the winter with an indoor trainer and I'm working to drop some lbs. I can hang with 18mph group rides and have done 2 centuries this year, but want to join the fast 21-22 mph group rides and do at least 4 centuries next year.
I'm looking to buy a dedicated road bike, preferably carbon that can run true 32mm tires. I already have a Topstone that's great, but I'd like to keep that set up with big tires and a rear rack.
My head is spinning with all the choices out there and I'm 6'5" so no local shops have anything in my size in stock. My Topstone is an XL, with 40.2 cm reach, 120 mm stem, and 64 cm stack. The Supersix is supposed to be a fast, race type road bike and the 62 cm has a 40.6 reach and 63.4 cm stack. That seems pretty close to my Topstone which is supposed to be a more relaxed, endurance geometry.
What would make the Supersix faster? More aero tube shapes and less weight? How much faster would this be vs an endurance bike at the same weight like a Synapse? It seems to me based on the measurements that you could get a similar fit on either, or am I missing something?
I'm looking to buy a dedicated road bike, preferably carbon that can run true 32mm tires. I already have a Topstone that's great, but I'd like to keep that set up with big tires and a rear rack.
My head is spinning with all the choices out there and I'm 6'5" so no local shops have anything in my size in stock. My Topstone is an XL, with 40.2 cm reach, 120 mm stem, and 64 cm stack. The Supersix is supposed to be a fast, race type road bike and the 62 cm has a 40.6 reach and 63.4 cm stack. That seems pretty close to my Topstone which is supposed to be a more relaxed, endurance geometry.
What would make the Supersix faster? More aero tube shapes and less weight? How much faster would this be vs an endurance bike at the same weight like a Synapse? It seems to me based on the measurements that you could get a similar fit on either, or am I missing something?
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,106 Times
in
1,417 Posts
I've been getting serious about riding this year, and plan to train over the winter with an indoor trainer and I'm working to drop some lbs. I can hang with 18mph group rides and have done 2 centuries this year, but want to join the fast 21-22 mph group rides and do at least 4 centuries next year.
I'm looking to buy a dedicated road bike, preferably carbon that can run true 32mm tires. I already have a Topstone that's great, but I'd like to keep that set up with big tires and a rear rack.
My head is spinning with all the choices out there and I'm 6'5" so no local shops have anything in my size in stock. My Topstone is an XL, with 40.2 cm reach, 120 mm stem, and 64 cm stack. The Supersix is supposed to be a fast, race type road bike and the 62 cm has a 40.6 reach and 63.4 cm stack. That seems pretty close to my Topstone which is supposed to be a more relaxed, endurance geometry.
What would make the Supersix faster? More aero tube shapes and less weight? How much faster would this be vs an endurance bike at the same weight like a Synapse? It seems to me based on the measurements that you could get a similar fit on either, or am I missing something?
I'm looking to buy a dedicated road bike, preferably carbon that can run true 32mm tires. I already have a Topstone that's great, but I'd like to keep that set up with big tires and a rear rack.
My head is spinning with all the choices out there and I'm 6'5" so no local shops have anything in my size in stock. My Topstone is an XL, with 40.2 cm reach, 120 mm stem, and 64 cm stack. The Supersix is supposed to be a fast, race type road bike and the 62 cm has a 40.6 reach and 63.4 cm stack. That seems pretty close to my Topstone which is supposed to be a more relaxed, endurance geometry.
What would make the Supersix faster? More aero tube shapes and less weight? How much faster would this be vs an endurance bike at the same weight like a Synapse? It seems to me based on the measurements that you could get a similar fit on either, or am I missing something?
#3
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 88
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times
in
18 Posts
I get that...and that's a common refrain. But if the engine was the only variable, why do we cyclists worry about all the other stuff? Given the same rider on a Supersix and a Synapse, with the same wheels and fit, do you think there's no difference in performance?
#4
Senior Member
Obviously the engine is the main factor. But to try to answer your question: The race bike is likely to be lighter and likely to feel like it accelerates better. Rake may be different which would impact steering.
#5
Senior Member
Much of the items discussed on this forum relate to marginal gains.
Likes For RShantz:
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,569
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1851 Post(s)
Liked 678 Times
in
429 Posts
It's not just about stack and reach.
Endurace frames also tend to have slacker angles and longer wheelbases, which result in a more comfortable, less twitch ride.
Also, bike sizing differs by company. One brand's 56 may be another's 54. So, while your endurance Topstone has a similar stack and reach to the racier Cannondale, that could just be due to how the two companies size their bikes.
Endurace frames also tend to have slacker angles and longer wheelbases, which result in a more comfortable, less twitch ride.
Also, bike sizing differs by company. One brand's 56 may be another's 54. So, while your endurance Topstone has a similar stack and reach to the racier Cannondale, that could just be due to how the two companies size their bikes.
Likes For FrankTuna:
#8
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 88
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times
in
18 Posts
It's not just about stack and reach.
Endurace frames also tend to have slacker angles and longer wheelbases, which result in a more comfortable, less twitch ride.
Also, bike sizing differs by company. One brand's 56 may be another's 54. So, while your endurance Topstone has a similar stack and reach to the racier Cannondale, that could just be due to how the two companies size their bikes.
Endurace frames also tend to have slacker angles and longer wheelbases, which result in a more comfortable, less twitch ride.
Also, bike sizing differs by company. One brand's 56 may be another's 54. So, while your endurance Topstone has a similar stack and reach to the racier Cannondale, that could just be due to how the two companies size their bikes.
#9
Senior Member
It's not just about stack and reach.
Endurace frames also tend to have slacker angles and longer wheelbases, which result in a more comfortable, less twitch ride.
Also, bike sizing differs by company. One brand's 56 may be another's 54. So, while your endurance Topstone has a similar stack and reach to the racier Cannondale, that could just be due to how the two companies size their bikes.
Endurace frames also tend to have slacker angles and longer wheelbases, which result in a more comfortable, less twitch ride.
Also, bike sizing differs by company. One brand's 56 may be another's 54. So, while your endurance Topstone has a similar stack and reach to the racier Cannondale, that could just be due to how the two companies size their bikes.
With that said, the best thing that you can do to improve overall speed, is upgrading your wheels/tires. A stiff, light and aero wheel on 25-28mm race rubber will provide a very noticeable gain.
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,106 Times
in
1,417 Posts
I'd get whichever one fits better. Or comes from the shop that's nicer.
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18373 Post(s)
Liked 4,508 Times
in
3,351 Posts
One would have to look at each bike/brand. Other features are that most brands are trying to specifically add some flex to the endurance bikes.
So, Specialized adds Zerts and the Future Shock in the Roubaix and a few other bikes.
Trek uses IsoSpeed decouplers in critical locations.
Another thing to look at is tire sizes.
Traditionally, many of the road bikes were topping at about 25mm, or perhaps 28mm tire sizes.
At 6'5", how heavy are you? You might find yourself leaning towards 28mm, or perhaps 32mm tires. Anyway, I would certainly put tire clearance as one of the criteria that I'd use with choosing a new bike.
So, Specialized adds Zerts and the Future Shock in the Roubaix and a few other bikes.
Trek uses IsoSpeed decouplers in critical locations.
Another thing to look at is tire sizes.
Traditionally, many of the road bikes were topping at about 25mm, or perhaps 28mm tire sizes.
At 6'5", how heavy are you? You might find yourself leaning towards 28mm, or perhaps 32mm tires. Anyway, I would certainly put tire clearance as one of the criteria that I'd use with choosing a new bike.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,690
Bikes: Giant Propel, Cannondale SuperX, Univega Alpina Ultima
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 672 Post(s)
Liked 417 Times
in
249 Posts
The geometry isn't similar.
__________________
Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton
Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton
#13
Newbie
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Cannondale Synapse (first) vs Supersix (second) for a 61/62cm frame...
Reach: 40.2/40.6
Top tube: 60.4/61.1
Stack: 64.0/63.4
Wheelbase (both): 102.8
Head tube angle (both): 73°
Stand over: 86.8/87.0
Trail (both): 5.8
Fork rake (both): 4.5
Chain stay: 41/40.8
Reach: 40.2/40.6
Top tube: 60.4/61.1
Stack: 64.0/63.4
Wheelbase (both): 102.8
Head tube angle (both): 73°
Stand over: 86.8/87.0
Trail (both): 5.8
Fork rake (both): 4.5
Chain stay: 41/40.8
#14
Senior Member
FrankTuna
What would make the Supersix faster? More aero tube shapes and less weight? How much faster would this be vs an endurance bike at the same weight like a Synapse? It seems to me based on the measurements that you could get a similar fit on either, or am I missing something?
Bike Frame Stiffness / Pedaling Stiffness
Giant TCR Race 163 / 71
Giant Defy Endurance 141 / 70
What would make the Supersix faster? More aero tube shapes and less weight? How much faster would this be vs an endurance bike at the same weight like a Synapse? It seems to me based on the measurements that you could get a similar fit on either, or am I missing something?
Bike Frame Stiffness / Pedaling Stiffness
Giant TCR Race 163 / 71
Giant Defy Endurance 141 / 70
Last edited by hefeweizen; 10-26-19 at 06:53 AM.
#16
Senior Member
The purpose of using the stack and reach dimensions is to allow bar height and reach to be made the same, with different stem lengths and spacers under the stem or stem angle changes.
What is often overlooked when comparing frames with different stack heights, is the reach value needs to be adjusted to the same stack height on both frames. If you're trying to decide between two sizes, with a 20mm difference in stack height, 6mm should be subtracted from the reach of the smaller frame, assuming that the smaller frame will need 20mm of spacer under the stem and none would be used on the larger frame.
You often see the reach of frames only increasing by a few millimeters between sizes, while the stack changes in 15-20mm increments. This makes more sense when a 4mm difference becomes 10mm, once the reach is adjusted to the same stack height on both frames.
What is often overlooked when comparing frames with different stack heights, is the reach value needs to be adjusted to the same stack height on both frames. If you're trying to decide between two sizes, with a 20mm difference in stack height, 6mm should be subtracted from the reach of the smaller frame, assuming that the smaller frame will need 20mm of spacer under the stem and none would be used on the larger frame.
You often see the reach of frames only increasing by a few millimeters between sizes, while the stack changes in 15-20mm increments. This makes more sense when a 4mm difference becomes 10mm, once the reach is adjusted to the same stack height on both frames.
#17
Disco Infiltrator
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Folsom CA
Posts: 13,446
Bikes: Stormchaser, Paramount, Tilt, Samba tandem
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3126 Post(s)
Liked 2,105 Times
in
1,369 Posts
There are a lot of "marginal gains" to be found between an aluminum Topstone and a carbon racing bike. You will be able to tell the difference.
__________________
Genesis 49:16-17
Genesis 49:16-17
#18
Senior Member
He may enjoy the ride more based on how the bike feels, but solely discussing speed I'm just not certain how much faster, if any, the race frame would be.
#19
Destroyer of Worlds
If you haven't already...what's keeping you from looking at the new Trek Domane? Comes with 32 by default, and can fit wider. Can also go down to a 25-28 if you're looking for something a little more race-like. While the bike is pretty heavy on the lower end, it dips down into the 17lbs range on the higher end bikes. Which isn't that bad for an endurance bike. Again, if we're talking about "marginal gains"...I could lose 20lbs of body weight before I start worrying about the fact that my bike is 2lbs heavier than my buddies. Not sure if that's true in your case or not, but it might be worth a look if you're thinking of doing a lot of centuries.
#20
Senior Member
i think a cheaper option is to sell the alloy topstone then get the carbon topstone and another wheelset. If you enjoy your current groupset you can just sell the frameset and move everything over. My Niner is my everything in one bike.
#21
Full Member
For me not much I don’t have those 2 bikes to compare . But I do have a BMC granfondo an indurance bike and a few race bike and for me the speed is about the same I feel the specialized tarmac handles a little better into turns and on descends . But as for speed never say to myself I’m taking out one or the other bikes so I can be faster on a ride that day.
#23
Destroyer of Worlds
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,284
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8278 Post(s)
Liked 9,033 Times
in
4,471 Posts
I've been thinking about the wheelbase issue too, which must be related to the angles too. I had a Trek gravel bike for a few months and sold it because I wasn't happy with the fit. I had alot of toe overlap, and that's not an issue with the Topstone since that has a long wheelbase. Is some toe overlap to be expected on a typical road bike?
For recreational cyclists the speed differences between bikes isn't going to be much if the bikes are reasonably similar. The fit/comfort is important for century type rides.
I've always used 23 tires for everything but am thinking about trying something larger.
Why is there a FrankTuna2?
Likes For big john:
#25
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,610
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10955 Post(s)
Liked 7,484 Times
in
4,186 Posts
It's not just about stack and reach.
...
Also, bike sizing differs by company. One brand's 56 may be another's 54. So, while your endurance Topstone has a similar stack and reach to the racier Cannondale, that could just be due to how the two companies size their bikes.
...
Also, bike sizing differs by company. One brand's 56 may be another's 54. So, while your endurance Topstone has a similar stack and reach to the racier Cannondale, that could just be due to how the two companies size their bikes.