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2 part Lance special...u watch?

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2 part Lance special...u watch?

Old 06-02-20, 01:18 PM
  #51  
ZHVelo
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
"He was a prodigy at a very young age." Yes. But he wasn't a three week stage racer who could win a yellow jersey. He was a one day classics rider. The World Championships, the races in Belgium. His body took to that new drug, EPO and benefited more than most. In part, because, for such a powerful build, heart, longs, etc., he had a rather low VO2max. Before his use of EPO, the best three week riders had much higher VO2max levels naturally and recovered better after hard efforts, So, before EPO, Armstrong faired poorly after days of hard racing, but after EPO, it was a different story. IN the early years of testing for EPO, they simply measured VO2max and assumed everyone over 50% was drugging. Those at 48# naturally couldn't touch EPO. But Armstrong, at ~35%, could take a whole lot of it. It was several Tour wins before the testing got more sophisticated. By then, the US Postal/Discovery team had worked out how to get around the tests.

Doping has been going on forever in pro cycling. But until EPO, the riders were human. Doping could win you races but at a cost. When riders were racing well over 100 races a year, you could only dope for certain races or your career was going to be short. EPO changed the game.

Ben
This.

Some people benefited far more from EPO than others. Not to mention that Lance undoubtedly had the most sophisticated program of all riders. Ensuring maximum recovery during the TdF as well. The whole "they all doped, it was a level playing field" is a massive red herring.
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Old 06-02-20, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by znomit View Post
Clean Lance was not all that great on the bike.
Unfortunately we'll never really know - given that he dominatedd the peloton for 7 years even though it's likely that most/all of his rivals were also doping, I imagine that, while he might not have won 7 in a row, I could see him winning at least one, possibly more - Ullrich, his perennial rival, was also a doper, but Armstrong clearly outclassed him in the mountains and in most of the TTs. Basso may have been his equal in the high mountains, but he didn't have the TT chops. What can't be taken away from Armstrong was his singleminded campaign to win a single event - the advanced scouting of the routes, the building of an entire team around one purpose etc - this was a revelation in a sport where teams planned on season-long campaigns, started in the spring, riding into fitness for the Grand Tours and supporting "your guy" as much as intra-team politics would allow, and ending in some post-GT exhibition crits, then getting a little chubby over the winter and starting again next year. Was he "the hardest-working guy in cycling"? Quite possibly. Even if his doping had been merely on a par with the rest of the potential Tour contenders (instead of being way more advanced), I think his sheer competitive drive, coupled with intense preparation and a dedicated team - plus, whatever you think of him as a person, the guy could ride a bike - would have earned him at least several Tour wins. But being "another Greg Lemond" wasn't enough for him

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Old 06-02-20, 01:47 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Litespud View Post
What can't be taken away from Armstrong was his singleminded campaign to win a single event - the advanced scouting of the routes, the building of an entire team around one purpose etc. Was he "the hardest-working guy in cycling"? Quite possibly.
This is a factor that is pretty much always overlooked/avoided in the Lance stories. He trained and prepared in a way that was different than what others were doing - a single focus designed to hit an absolute peak for one event.
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Old 06-02-20, 01:54 PM
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Not to mention, the whole team got the good stuff, not just the elite rider or riders. That whole team was a relentless machine, and the peloton never got a rest when ol Lance was wearing yellow.
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
In other news, to effect quick passes of other cyclists out this morning, I did dial it up to 400w to pass several times. It doesn't actually feel like much of anything for that duration. Not sure what that guy was on about.
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Old 06-02-20, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Velo Vol View Post
Link?

I didn't see him complaining about much, other than getting kicked out of Livestrong.
Right at the very end he bemoaned the fates of Pantani, Ulrich, and himself.
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Old 06-02-20, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
This is a factor that is pretty much always overlooked/avoided in the Lance stories. He trained and prepared in a way that was different than what others were doing - a single focus designed to hit an absolute peak for one event.
He and the team also benefited from inside help that other teams and riders did not get. His first Tour, he tested positive first or second stage but was allowed to slide. probably because he was a feel-good story as a cancer survivor. Later a drug tester was kept locked outside the team's house for an hour while Armsrrong diluted is blood to pass the surprise test, (The team's inside informer missed that one, Usually they got a phone call in advance so he could be ready.) Keeping a tester waiting more than 10 minutes is an automatic positive but that was allowed to slide. Other teams didn't get that benefit. In fact, Armstrong's team could place a call to the governing body and say "we know so and so is doping." (So and so just happening to be very close to Amstrong in that particular Tour's general classification race- the fight for the yellow jersey. So and so gets a surprise test which he does not pass and Armstrong has one less rival to worry about. That happened several times. Those riders were disqualified and disgraced while Armstrong rode on to another yellow jersey.

Yes, Armstrong did his special training with that single focus (and kept himself out of the public's and officials' view) until the Tour. Meant that he could focus on a drug regime that was impossible for a rider racing all spring.

Ben
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Old 06-02-20, 02:19 PM
  #57  
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I like this quote from 2005.

“What Lance achieved nobody can take away,” Pena, who helped Armstrong to three of his seven Tour victories, told Colombia’s Caracol radio Tuesday. Pena said Armstrong was so closely watched during the Tour that it would have been impossible for him to use performance-enhancing drugs.

“Not only did the sports laboratories constantly test him, but video cameras were set up in his room and police agents constantly monitored Lance’s movements and who was visiting him and even his phone conversations,” Pena said.
Umm, dude. It got taken away. He cheated. And no doubt, Mr. Pena, you cheated too.
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Old 06-02-20, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
"He was a prodigy at a very young age." Yes. But he wasn't a three week stage racer who could win a yellow jersey. He was a one day classics rider. The World Championships, the races in Belgium. His body took to that new drug, EPO and benefited more than most. In part, because, for such a powerful build, heart, longs, etc., he had a rather low VO2max. Before his use of EPO, the best three week riders had much higher VO2max levels naturally and recovered better after hard efforts, So, before EPO, Armstrong faired poorly after days of hard racing, but after EPO, it was a different story. IN the early years of testing for EPO, they simply measured VO2max and assumed everyone over 50% was drugging. Those at 48# naturally couldn't touch EPO. But Armstrong, at ~35%, could take a whole lot of it. It was several Tour wins before the testing got more sophisticated. By then, the US Postal/Discovery team had worked out how to get around the tests.

Doping has been going on forever in pro cycling. But until EPO, the riders were human. Doping could win you races but at a cost. When riders were racing well over 100 races a year, you could only dope for certain races or your career was going to be short. EPO changed the game.

Ben
If you haven't read The Secret Race - Hamilton's book - it's worth doing so. He doesn't try to dodge his culpability, explaining rather than justifying, and it provides a great description of the exquisite control the USPS riders and their handlers maintained over their hematocrit levels leading up to and during the big races.
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Old 06-02-20, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
He and the team also benefited from inside help that other teams and riders did not get. His first Tour, he tested positive first or second stage but was allowed to slide. probably because he was a feel-good story as a cancer survivor. Later a drug tester was kept locked outside the team's house for an hour while Armsrrong diluted is blood to pass the surprise test, (The team's inside informer missed that one, Usually they got a phone call in advance so he could be ready.) Keeping a tester waiting more than 10 minutes is an automatic positive but that was allowed to slide. Other teams didn't get that benefit. In fact, Armstrong's team could place a call to the governing body and say "we know so and so is doping." (So and so just happening to be very close to Amstrong in that particular Tour's general classification race- the fight for the yellow jersey. So and so gets a surprise test which he does not pass and Armstrong has one less rival to worry about. That happened several times. Those riders were disqualified and disgraced while Armstrong rode on to another yellow jersey.

Yes, Armstrong did his special training with that single focus (and kept himself out of the public's and officials' view) until the Tour. Meant that he could focus on a drug regime that was impossible for a rider racing all spring.

Ben
The sport benefited greatly from Lance's feel-good story of the champion that beat cancer. It meant a lot of money for a lot of people. UCI was definitely a part of the program...and the problem.
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Old 06-02-20, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
"He was a prodigy at a very young age." Yes. But he wasn't a three week stage racer who could win a yellow jersey. He was a one day classics rider. The World Championships, the races in Belgium. His body took to that new drug, EPO and benefited more than most. In part, because, for such a powerful build, heart, longs, etc., he had a rather low VO2max. Before his use of EPO, the best three week riders had much higher VO2max levels naturally and recovered better after hard efforts, So, before EPO, Armstrong faired poorly after days of hard racing, but after EPO, it was a different story. IN the early years of testing for EPO, they simply measured VO2max and assumed everyone over 50% was drugging. Those at 48# naturally couldn't touch EPO. But Armstrong, at ~35%, could take a whole lot of it. It was several Tour wins before the testing got more sophisticated. By then, the US Postal/Discovery team had worked out how to get around the tests.

Doping has been going on forever in pro cycling. But until EPO, the riders were human. Doping could win you races but at a cost. When riders were racing well over 100 races a year, you could only dope for certain races or your career was going to be short. EPO changed the game.

Ben
Ahhh, thanks. It sounds like there’s no way he could have been a top name in cycling without EPO taking over the sport.
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Old 06-02-20, 02:37 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
The sport benefited greatly from Lance's feel-good story of the champion that beat cancer. It meant a lot of money for a lot of people. UCI was definitely a part of the program...and the problem.
UCI benefited from the rider performances and subsequent publicity that doping enabled, and suffered as the sport did when dopers were caught. While the organization may not have been "pro-doping", it was certainly "anti-testing" or rather "anti-dopers-getting-caught". I don't know how involved UCI is in PED monitoring, what with USADA and WADA, but IMO it shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the process, because it's far from a disinterested neutral party.
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Old 06-02-20, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Litespud View Post
UCI benefited from the rider performances and subsequent publicity that doping enabled, and suffered as the sport did when dopers were caught. While the organization may not have been "pro-doping", it was certainly "anti-testing" or rather "anti-dopers-getting-caught". I don't know how involved UCI is in PED monitoring, what with USADA and WADA, but IMO it shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the process, because it's far from a disinterested neutral party.
Agreed 100%. UCI has to play the part of requiring a clean sport, but the reality is that they just don't want the appearance of a dirty sport. The distance between those two points is pretty significant.
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Old 06-02-20, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by TakingMyTime View Post
I have not and will not watch this. No matter when or where he was interviewed, at whatever age... he always sounded like and carried himself as a prick. Drugs or not, he's a prick.
Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
This is sort of my perspective too. They were all doping. He was probably better at it. But he was also quite viscous to anyone who challenged him and ruined their lives.

This sums up pretty much everyone at the top of their game/profession. Pretty much all great athletes - look at Tiger or Jordan - and CEOs, billionaires, politicians are pricks,
I'm not excusing his behavior by any means, he was an arrogant, entitled, nasty dick by any measure.

But ya know, I have to say . . . how many of us in his position would not have done similar? Here's a guy that finds himself in possession of immense talent and success, and one day you come to realize that the only way to compete in your sport is to cheat like everybody else. Now you find yourself on top of your sport and on top of the world where the lights are brighter and the rewards richer than anything you have ever imagined. Unbelievable fame and fortune. It's intoxicating. It is utterly surreal.

Now you come to realize that in order to maintain this fame you have to lie, of course. And when you see people endangering your position you decide you must discredit them to save yourself. It's either you or them . . . and you pick you. How many people wouldn't do the same in his position. My guess is at least 50% of us would, we don't know, because we have never been in his position of possessing incredible, mind boggling talent and fame. And riches. My argument is that lacking a true appreciation of what that's like you cannot predict what you would do or how far you would go to protect your interests. You THINK you do, but you really don't. Many of us would do it for the riches alone, and go to church routinely on Sunday like nothing happened.

Is he the worst person walking the earth? Far, far from it. (***** is. lol) I just have always thought the Lance hate was just a bit over the top compared to a lot of the creatures walking around disguised as human beings. He cheated in his sport and made a mess of trying to cover it up. We can look around us and find individuals doing things a lot worse every day. And given the opportunity, I'd bet at least half of us would do the same thing.

Just saying.
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Old 06-02-20, 03:01 PM
  #64  
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Haven't read the comments but, given the title, it's sorely missing something...



Ah, that's better.
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Old 06-02-20, 03:02 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
That's surprising to you?
Yup, surprised me, I didn't know he was a dick all the way from childhood.

#badparenting
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Old 06-02-20, 04:58 PM
  #66  
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imo, If it was a clean sport, Lance would still have won a lot of races
We will never know cycling as a clean sport to this day, but not because of Lance
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Old 06-04-20, 11:02 AM
  #67  
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He was a relentless businessman who was ready of anything to win.
but he wasn’t mafia, he didn’t kill. Destroyed lives and other’s businesses for him to prevail.
he is the opppsite of what sportsmanship meant to be
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Old 06-04-20, 11:58 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by BillyD View Post
Yup, surprised me, I didn't know he was a dick all the way from childhood.

#badparenting
The fact that, as a kid, he was lying about his age to get into races, including forging documents with his mom, pretty much indicates his world class level narcissism.
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Old 06-06-20, 05:26 AM
  #69  
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Where is it available

is it on Netflix or another platform
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Old 06-06-20, 07:05 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by dr_max View Post
Where is it available

is it on Netflix or another platform
https://www.espn.com/watch/catalog/d...65102489/lance
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Old 06-06-20, 07:42 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
The difference between Lance and the other dopers though is that he is sociopath and narcissist. Take Jan, be it his upbringing in Eastern Germany and socialist influence, but he was a team player. He raced for the team, Lance raced for himself. Shame how his life turned out in comparison.
I can’t say I really know Armstrong, but I did meet him as long ago as the KMart Classic, back in the 90’s in WV, I’m fairly well acquainted with a number of people who know him well, and I had the opportunity to talk to Landis at the Tour of the Bahamas stage race after all this went down.

Based on those limited observations and reading most everything written about Armstrong, I think you’re likely correct that he’s a sociopath, or at least has strong sociopathic tendencies. Sociopaths do not have empathy for other people. I don’t think Armstrong has ever shown any true feeling or remorse for the people he hurt.
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Old 06-07-20, 01:52 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
I can’t say I really know Armstrong, but I did meet him as long ago as the KMart Classic, back in the 90’s in WV, I’m fairly well acquainted with a number of people who know him well, and I had the opportunity to talk to Landis at the Tour of the Bahamas stage race after all this went down.

Based on those limited observations and reading most everything written about Armstrong, I think you’re likely correct that he’s a sociopath, or at least has strong sociopathic tendencies. Sociopaths do not have empathy for other people. I don’t think Armstrong has ever shown any true feeling or remorse for the people he hurt.
Merlin, I think that you nailed it with that observation. He has never fully accepted or come completely clean about what he did, its impact upon him and others along the way, etc. It is who he is. Maybe as part of the Lance myth, many are waiting for him or had wanted him to do this. Lance's behavior back then and to a good degree today is a pity, mostly because he had the potential to affect many lives in a positive manner. He still can't accept his expulsion from the cancer foundation that he helped to start. And why is he still news worthy? Why are we wasting time here right now typing about it?

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Old 06-07-20, 08:23 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Fox Farm View Post
... And why is he still news worthy? Why are we wasting time here right now typing about it?
Not happy to admit it, but it’s because he’s “still relevant.”
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Old 06-08-20, 02:45 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by BillyD View Post
I'm not excusing his behavior by any means, he was an arrogant, entitled, nasty dick by any measure.

But ya know, I have to say . . . how many of us in his position would not have done similar? Here's a guy that finds himself in possession of immense talent and success, and one day you come to realize that the only way to compete in your sport is to cheat like everybody else. Now you find yourself on top of your sport and on top of the world where the lights are brighter and the rewards richer than anything you have ever imagined. Unbelievable fame and fortune. It's intoxicating. It is utterly surreal.

Now you come to realize that in order to maintain this fame you have to lie, of course. And when you see people endangering your position you decide you must discredit them to save yourself. It's either you or them . . . and you pick you. How many people wouldn't do the same in his position. My guess is at least 50% of us would, we don't know, because we have never been in his position of possessing incredible, mind boggling talent and fame. And riches. My argument is that lacking a true appreciation of what that's like you cannot predict what you would do or how far you would go to protect your interests. You THINK you do, but you really don't. Many of us would do it for the riches alone, and go to church routinely on Sunday like nothing happened.

Is he the worst person walking the earth? Far, far from it. (***** is. lol) I just have always thought the Lance hate was just a bit over the top compared to a lot of the creatures walking around disguised as human beings. He cheated in his sport and made a mess of trying to cover it up. We can look around us and find individuals doing things a lot worse every day. And given the opportunity, I'd bet at least half of us would do the same thing.

Just saying.
I finally understood at least part of what motivated Lance after I got cancer. Between that, an injury and long recovery, I realized that I'd probably take anything I could get my hands on to heal quicker and get stronger again.

I don't have his ruthlessness to destroy the lives of people around me. But I could see myself justifying doping at that age and level of ability to get back into the game, knowing it's rigged and everyone else is using PEDs. Heck, Indurain probably did but nobody cares because he's such a nice guy and didn't screw over teammates and business associates.

That was a revelation. I was pretty cynical about Armstrong until I was in a similar situation.

Heck, I take all kinds of over the counter stuff now that's legal to buy and use but would probably be banned even in some amateur competitions. I eat beef liver that's probably swimming in hormones. At 62 I'm not competing so it's irrelevant. I was just willing to try anything legal that I could afford to get back to the condition I was in before the injury and illness. I kinda doubt it helps much, but who knows.
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Old 06-08-20, 06:43 AM
  #75  
UsedToBeFaster
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He doped from age 21 and has no regrets

That says it all to me.

The following is good. The last point that he wouldnt change a thing really shows he is a prick. I think that's because he is still healthy and has $50M

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cyc...ary-456506/amp
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