BostonFun888

Hi All,

I recently picked up an very clean 1982 Univega Sportour, which has Shimano 600 (arabesque) derailers, which work okay but seem less smooth than I'd like (could be that I need to get more used to them) It has a double crankset, and from what I've read it seems that it wouldn't make sense to swap the front derailer as it will still use friction shifting. I've also read that some rear derailers have the ability to switch between indexed shifting and friction shifting, based on a switch that you can flip. My questions are; Are modern rear derailers (i.e shimano deore) that much better than the higher end shimanos of yesterday; and if so, is the upgrade worth the money? Additionally, am I correct in that there are derailers that are both friction/index capable, in one package? Thanks for any help you might be able to provide.

Bianchigirll 

A derailleur designed for index can be run in friction with no issues. It is not the derailleur that controls the indexing but the shifter. Most all shipmano and Suntour downtube shifters had a friction option for use if the system malfunction due a stretched cable or bent hanger/derailleur.

Whether modern indexing RDs are better than older RDs can be argued all day long. With the development of the slant parrellelogram RD by SUntour all shifting became soomther. The slant allowed the upper or 'Jockey' pulley to remain the same distance from every cong from the smallest to the largest makeing shifting smoother. Another feature of indexing derailluers that arguably makes shipmano models shift better/quieter is their 'Centeron' uper pulley that actually floats a tiny bit to make up for difference in the index ring and freewheel spacing.

Now as toy our bike.... You could set it up with indexing but finding clampon indexing shifters maybe problematic and expensive. You might get smoother shifting simply but adding a more modern RD like a Exage or Tiagra series with your friction. If you can find a decent used RD it is always worht experimenting with.

jimmuller 

Read BG's reply. But also be aware of two more things.

First, in general you can't mix any random shift levers with any random derailleurs and expect indexing to work. They need to have been designed for the correct amount of cable movement per shift. I couldn't tell you which pairings would or wouldn't work.

Suntour's patent on the slant parallelogram RD expired in 1986, IIRC. That's when everybody else immediately came out with their own versions. (Well, almost everybody. Simplex never figured it out.) So an older Shimano wouldn't be quite up to that standard. Which is not to say it might not shift well regardless. On the other hand, your RD might not be original either. Someone who knows the dates an features of the arabesque models will have to answer that one.

You might just want to ride it more before passing judgment. Friction shifting takes some getting used to. After all, it isn't just push-a-button-and-it-works. Be aware too that unlike the RD the FD is shifting a part of the chain under the tension of pedalling. You have to let up the pressure when shifting the front.

Another factor which can hinder or help shifting precision is friction in the cable. Some of us prefer DT shifters for their precision; others prefer bar-end or stem shifters for their convenience. (I'm a DT guy but I'll grant that other people are allowed to have their own deviant opinions.) Just something to consider.

due ruote 

I doubt it's the derailleur that's making the system less smooth than you'd like. If you put on a modern ramped freewheel and a new chain, I bet it will be a different experience. You also didn't mention what shifters you have. A pair of used Suntour power shifters would be a minor investment, and they work very well.

Dave Mayer

Nope. Derailleurs have to be matched with the shifters and cog spacing. Different 'indexing' derailleurs behave differently for the same amount of cable pull. This is why you cannot mix & match SRAM, Campagnolo and Shimano derailleurs. As an example, if you use some vintage Suntour Accushift (indexing) derailleurs with some SRAM mountain shifters, the derailleur will travel roughly twice as much as is needed to line correctly up with each cog. Shimano and Campagnolo derailleurs will provide somewhat less travel, but still not even close the right amount.

In general, modern derailleurs will perform better than all old derailleurs, even in friction. The slant parallelogram cage design and the floating top pulley, which are features of all current derailleurs, has been adopted throughout the industry for good reason. As far as performance, mid-range units such Shimano Deore or Tiagra, Campagnolo Veloce etc. are as good as anyone needs.

Your current Shimano 600 unit includes some history. It lacks the superior slant parallelogram design, which was under protection until Suntour's patent expired in 1984. To compensate for this lack of critical technology, in the early 80's Shimano designed their derailleurs to look like Suntour derailleurs, but without the slant in the derailleur cage. So Shimano made derailleurs to mimic the look of the better Suntour units, which added some unnecessary weight, but without the performance benefits of the Suntour design. Maybe that's why they tried to sex it up with some cosmetic features. Marketing. Sad.

Get a current derailleur.

JohnDThompson 

Only if you want indexed shifting. Bianchigirll excluded that in her reply, as the OP's "Arabesque" shifters are friction shifters, not indexed shifters.

JohnDThompson 

There are shifters that are both index and friction capable, e.g. the original "SIS" levers:



But as Mr Mayer points out, for the indexing to work properly you need to match the shifters to the derailleur and cluster.

Doohickie

DING. We have a winner.

I have a 1983 Raleigh Super Course. Clunky friction shifting as it came to me: Lots of noise between gears, etc. I switched out my freewheel in the rear (and actually went up to a 7 speed freewheel), and also put Suntour barcons (ratcheting bar-end shifters) on it and it shifts beautifully.

Arrowana

Doing a derailleur swap can make quite a difference too. I had a Huret Jubile on a bike once, and it was terrible with the thumb shifters I put on it. I switched it out for a Shimano Acera X, left the stock chain and frewheel on, and it worked great. That said, I'd try a new chain and freewheel first. The 600 Arabesque looks great, and if you can be happy with it, you might as well keep it.

oldskoolwrench

From a shifting standpoint (and considering index/ friction) a 'more modern' Shimano derailleur will shift 'smoother' than an older, non indexed Shimano derailleur, depending on your definition and idea of 'smooth'.

From a purely manufacturing standpoint, the 600 Arabesque derailleur is a much better constructed and manufactured derailleur than most any 'modern' Shimano derailleur, in my very lowly opinion.

Now don't get me wrong; you beat the crap out of a DR, regardless of grade, and it ain't gonna last. But, how many of you in C & V land have found an old 70's or 80's road bike, cleaned it up and discovered
that the derailleurs run smooth as silk, all the pivots are tight and the springs are too. How many times have you come across a Deore XT M-730 rear DR that's fugly cosmetically, but is just as tight and crisp
as a good looking one? Honestly, you can't say the same about the derailleurs today, especially when Tiagras, Soras, and Deores are being cranked out of Malaysia or the PRC and seem to have a built in service
life.

Sorry for the rant; regarding the OP's topic...

The Sportour came with 600 Arabesque DR's and shifters. As others have said, it's a combination of both shifter, DR, cassette and chain that makes the indexing work.

One add to BG's comments... the other teeny weeny thing that makes the indexing work along with the floating pulley is the spring loaded adjusting barrel. The amount of
cable pull from the barrel is much finer than on older DR's.

Even with power ratchet shifters there is a definite learning curve to making smooth crisp shifts that only comes with time and SA. Lots of us in this Forum grew up with
friction shifting as the norm; for someone from the index only crowd it seems strange.at first.

BostonFun888

WOW! Lots of good info here, thanks to everyone who posted. I didn't know quite how many considerations there were, so for now I'm going to ride the bike as is, and experiment when I have some more money to put into it ( or when parts fall into my lap! ). Again, thanks for all the help.

bradtx

BF888, The Arabesque group is a pretty nice bit of kit. Surely by now some servicing would help; clean and lube the pivot points and rotating parts. Same for the shifters themselves. Modern compressionless shifter cable housing is IMO a terrific upgrade and will help to diminish any gear hunting issues on a friction shifted RD.

Brad

TimmyT 

I have a Shimano Arabesque long cage rear derailleur (kinda rare) and two short cages (not so rare). The long cage does not function nearly as well for the exact same setup as a late 80s Deore LX long cage (GS) operated with tricolor shifters in friction mode.

YMMV.