$1,000 derailleur system with 1930's technology
#151
multimodal commuter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Posts: 19,808
Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
Mentioned: 584 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1908 Post(s)
Liked 574 Times
in
339 Posts
I hope I get to see a few bikes with the new Nivex derailleur in person before too long. Maybe someone will even let me ride one. I would be tempted to try one, but not on these conditions. I mess around with stuff, I modify things, try to different ways of making them work, and I'm not interested in something that already has all the bugs worked out.
Related to this thread, I can give some feedback about the Suntour S-1 derailleur that @gugie mounted to my Cera bike frame for me.
The S-1 was a chain-stay mounted derailleur that Suntour introduced just before they went out of business. They made several different versions. The one I have is a seven speed, long cage model. Unlike other derailleurs, it indexes at the derailleur, not the shifter. There is a cam mechanism on the derailleur that aligns the derailleur with the cog (if it's adjusted right). I shift it with a Suntour power shifter mounted on the shifter boss on the frame.
As I understand the Nivex derailleur, the action of the shifter is so light that the derailleur will feather itself. It doesn't have a spring moving it one way or the other, so the cable isn't under tension. It's only tight enough to not be loose. Anyone who's used a lever operated front derailleur (suicide shifter) knows the feeling. A slight tap with my finger and it shifts, and then it feathers itself and becomes silent within seconds. It's pretty sweet. The idea of a rear derailleur that shifts like that, well, I find that pretty appealing.
The Suntour S-1 is not like that. Like every other Suntour derailleur, there is a spring that keeps the derailleur in a normal-high position. The shifter cable pulls against that spring to get to the lower gears. The action of the derailleur is therefore a balance between the tension of the spring and the shifter; in order to work, the action has to be tight enough to hold the shift lever in place but loose enough that the rider can move the shift lever without much effort. So the action feels more or less like moving any other shifter, with the added wrinkle that the derailleur indexes itself. It took me a while to get used to the way it feels.
Initially, the derailleur was always a little noisy, as if not quite aligned with the cassette. I think it was just teething trouble, though, because it settled down after a couple weeks and I haven't heard any more from it. It proves to be a rugged and reliable system, shifts quickly and quietly in either direction. It will ghost shift if I let the action on the shifter get too loose, like any friction shifter. It is really an excellent derailleur. But it is not a special derailleur, or a fancy derailleur. There is nothing really remarkable about it. I'm perfectly happy with it, but it hasn't changed my life.
Wheel changes are not a problem as long as I remember to use the chain catcher attached to the dropout. It's basically like a porta catena system, but you put the chain on the chainrest with a stick before you take the wheel out. This system would work better with a through axle than with a QR.
Related to this thread, I can give some feedback about the Suntour S-1 derailleur that @gugie mounted to my Cera bike frame for me.
The S-1 was a chain-stay mounted derailleur that Suntour introduced just before they went out of business. They made several different versions. The one I have is a seven speed, long cage model. Unlike other derailleurs, it indexes at the derailleur, not the shifter. There is a cam mechanism on the derailleur that aligns the derailleur with the cog (if it's adjusted right). I shift it with a Suntour power shifter mounted on the shifter boss on the frame.
As I understand the Nivex derailleur, the action of the shifter is so light that the derailleur will feather itself. It doesn't have a spring moving it one way or the other, so the cable isn't under tension. It's only tight enough to not be loose. Anyone who's used a lever operated front derailleur (suicide shifter) knows the feeling. A slight tap with my finger and it shifts, and then it feathers itself and becomes silent within seconds. It's pretty sweet. The idea of a rear derailleur that shifts like that, well, I find that pretty appealing.
The Suntour S-1 is not like that. Like every other Suntour derailleur, there is a spring that keeps the derailleur in a normal-high position. The shifter cable pulls against that spring to get to the lower gears. The action of the derailleur is therefore a balance between the tension of the spring and the shifter; in order to work, the action has to be tight enough to hold the shift lever in place but loose enough that the rider can move the shift lever without much effort. So the action feels more or less like moving any other shifter, with the added wrinkle that the derailleur indexes itself. It took me a while to get used to the way it feels.
Initially, the derailleur was always a little noisy, as if not quite aligned with the cassette. I think it was just teething trouble, though, because it settled down after a couple weeks and I haven't heard any more from it. It proves to be a rugged and reliable system, shifts quickly and quietly in either direction. It will ghost shift if I let the action on the shifter get too loose, like any friction shifter. It is really an excellent derailleur. But it is not a special derailleur, or a fancy derailleur. There is nothing really remarkable about it. I'm perfectly happy with it, but it hasn't changed my life.
Wheel changes are not a problem as long as I remember to use the chain catcher attached to the dropout. It's basically like a porta catena system, but you put the chain on the chainrest with a stick before you take the wheel out. This system would work better with a through axle than with a QR.
__________________
www.rhmsaddles.com.
www.rhmsaddles.com.
Likes For rhm:
#153
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,046
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 838 Post(s)
Liked 1,082 Times
in
522 Posts
Something occurred to me today.
There are figures like Grant and Jan in some other hobbies/communities I’m heavily involved in and regardless of how I do or don’t feel about them, I’m certain that my corner of the bicycle world would be far worse off without their presence, attitudes and decisions (having seen it happen elsewhere).
Much more creativity, debate and excitement is generated by such figures than we may realize or give enough credit to.
There are figures like Grant and Jan in some other hobbies/communities I’m heavily involved in and regardless of how I do or don’t feel about them, I’m certain that my corner of the bicycle world would be far worse off without their presence, attitudes and decisions (having seen it happen elsewhere).
Much more creativity, debate and excitement is generated by such figures than we may realize or give enough credit to.
Last edited by polymorphself; 12-16-22 at 02:55 PM.
Likes For polymorphself:
#154
Bike Butcher of Portland
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,639
Bikes: It's complicated.
Mentioned: 1299 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4682 Post(s)
Liked 5,802 Times
in
2,286 Posts
Something occurred to me today.
There are figures like Grant and Jan in some other hobbies/communities I’m heavily involved in and regardless of how I do or I don’t feel about them I’m certain that my corner of the bicycle world would be far worse off without their presence, attitudes and decisions (having seen it happen elsewhere).
Much more creativity, debate and excitement is generated by such figures than we may realize or give enough credit to.
There are figures like Grant and Jan in some other hobbies/communities I’m heavily involved in and regardless of how I do or I don’t feel about them I’m certain that my corner of the bicycle world would be far worse off without their presence, attitudes and decisions (having seen it happen elsewhere).
Much more creativity, debate and excitement is generated by such figures than we may realize or give enough credit to.
But I still think $1k for a rear derailleur and shifter is a bit austentatious. And selling hatchets along with bike stuff is kinda odd.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
Likes For gugie:
#155
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,831 Times
in
1,997 Posts
Likes For repechage:
#156
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 4,077
Bikes: Velo Orange Piolet
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2228 Post(s)
Liked 2,011 Times
in
972 Posts
Something occurred to me today.
There are figures like Grant and Jan in some other hobbies/communities I’m heavily involved in and regardless of how I do or I don’t feel about them I’m certain that my corner of the bicycle world would be far worse off without their presence, attitudes and decisions (having seen it happen elsewhere).
Much more creativity, debate and excitement is generated by such figures than we may realize or give enough credit to.
There are figures like Grant and Jan in some other hobbies/communities I’m heavily involved in and regardless of how I do or I don’t feel about them I’m certain that my corner of the bicycle world would be far worse off without their presence, attitudes and decisions (having seen it happen elsewhere).
Much more creativity, debate and excitement is generated by such figures than we may realize or give enough credit to.
Likes For tyrion:
#157
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,399
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,699 Times
in
2,519 Posts
I went shopping for titanium camp hatchets that would work in a jersey pocket after a particularly frustrating and dangerous run-in with a guy in an antique car.
I went and looked for pictures of the original Nivex, and they were all-sheet metal designs. They didn't really fit on a nice bike. I feel like RH could have probably made this look more like a Huret Jubilee and less like a Paul if it was a priority.
Maybe someone will do it as an aftermarket project.
I went and looked for pictures of the original Nivex, and they were all-sheet metal designs. They didn't really fit on a nice bike. I feel like RH could have probably made this look more like a Huret Jubilee and less like a Paul if it was a priority.
Maybe someone will do it as an aftermarket project.
#158
Full Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: North Seattle
Posts: 387
Bikes: Davidson ’81
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked 229 Times
in
121 Posts
The Nivex was released in the 1930’s and most (all?) of the derailleurs of the period had similar pressed-metal construction that doesn’t age well and looks like crap to modern sensibilities. Look at a Simplex Champion or Cyclo and the Nivex is less cheap-looking, if anything. There was no sculpted artwork of a derailleur like a Nuovo Record or Jubilee as an option in 1938.
Likes For C9H13N:
#159
Senior Member
You can't claim your product is made of "over 50 custom parts" and claim its a production unit. Are you making production quantities for the masses, or small batches for people who have more money than common sense? Pick one, market and price accordingly ($1000 with no shifter is plain stupid. For that matter $1000 with the shifter would still be stupid).
__________________
My bikes: '81 Trek 957, '83 Trek 720, '85 Trek 500, '85 Trek 770,'81 Merckx, '85 Centurion Cinelli, '85 Raleigh Portage, '92 RB-2, '09 Bianchi
My bikes: '81 Trek 957, '83 Trek 720, '85 Trek 500, '85 Trek 770,
#160
Master Parts Rearranger
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Portlandia's Kuiper Belt, OR
Posts: 4,403
Bikes: 1982 Trek 720 - 1985 Trek 620 - 1984 Trek 620 - 1980 Trek 510 - Other luminaries past and present
Mentioned: 221 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1556 Post(s)
Liked 2,024 Times
in
989 Posts
Dura-Ace R9100 mechanical shifters and derailleurs are $920 total. Just for comparison. And maybe for my research purposes....... bet they shift pretty well.
#161
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 2,441
Bikes: Drysdale/Gitane/Zeus/Masi/Falcon/Palo Alto/Raleigh/Legnano
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 987 Post(s)
Liked 640 Times
in
406 Posts
I just got an e-mail from RH, there's now a Nivex T-shirt and, at $28, much cheaper than the rear derailleur. Sadly, only in black.
__________________
Larry:1958 Drysdale, 1961 Gitane Gran Sport, 1974 Zeus track, 1988 Masi Gran Corsa, 1974 Falcon, 1980 Palo Alto, 1973 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1974 Legnano. Susan: 1976 Windsor Profesional.
Larry:1958 Drysdale, 1961 Gitane Gran Sport, 1974 Zeus track, 1988 Masi Gran Corsa, 1974 Falcon, 1980 Palo Alto, 1973 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1974 Legnano. Susan: 1976 Windsor Profesional.
Likes For tiger1964:
#162
Must be symmetrical
You can't claim your product is made of "over 50 custom parts" and claim its a production unit. Are you making production quantities for the masses, or small batches for people who have more money than common sense? Pick one, market and price accordingly ($1000 with no shifter is plain stupid. For that matter $1000 with the shifter would still be stupid).
But it is a strange claim nonetheless since it would be surprising if he could order all the parts for that thing out of a hardware store catalog and assemble them into . . . That.
And i would imagine that any derailleur has about that many type specific parts.
Now, His Suppleness claims you can rebuild the thing, but you need his "custom" parts. So it is a rather restrictive kind of rebuilding. If he really was committed to rebuilding, he would be boasting about how many non-custom, standard parts were in the thing. Sort of like how Riv boasts about the captive hex nut in their seat lug.
Last edited by Frkl; 12-17-22 at 08:42 AM.
#163
buy my bikes
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,800
Bikes: my very own customized GUNNAR CrossHairs
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 519 Post(s)
Liked 428 Times
in
249 Posts
Jan’s new Nivex is really interesting. I was geeked when he announced this project about 2 years ago (I think).
I picked up a Schwinn hybrid framset for cheap and bodged it for 650b wheels (relocated canti posts) and intended to add the derailleur boss.
i contacted Jan (or one of his minions) through Instagramme and got a price estimate a couple months ago — OUCH! Out of my price range.
seems like a lot of the initial comments were made with out having followed what Jan has been working on over the last 15 years. In particular with his relationship to the Herse family and his respect for French randeneuring and Japans passhunters. I hear he can be a bit of a wiener, but I still respect what he’s accomplished in the beautiful/useful niche part of cycling.
cheers!
ps - I did look into the Suntour version, but it’s indexed to 7 spd in the derailleur. I don’t think it offered a friction mode. My Schwinn is the lugged version of the previously pictured Schwinn. The one pictured is TIG welded, probably Chinese made. I suspect my lugged version is Taiwan made, with a typical hanger.
I picked up a Schwinn hybrid framset for cheap and bodged it for 650b wheels (relocated canti posts) and intended to add the derailleur boss.
i contacted Jan (or one of his minions) through Instagramme and got a price estimate a couple months ago — OUCH! Out of my price range.
seems like a lot of the initial comments were made with out having followed what Jan has been working on over the last 15 years. In particular with his relationship to the Herse family and his respect for French randeneuring and Japans passhunters. I hear he can be a bit of a wiener, but I still respect what he’s accomplished in the beautiful/useful niche part of cycling.
cheers!
ps - I did look into the Suntour version, but it’s indexed to 7 spd in the derailleur. I don’t think it offered a friction mode. My Schwinn is the lugged version of the previously pictured Schwinn. The one pictured is TIG welded, probably Chinese made. I suspect my lugged version is Taiwan made, with a typical hanger.
Last edited by mrv; 12-17-22 at 09:15 AM.
Likes For mrv:
#164
Must be symmetrical
seems like a lot of the initial comments were made with out having followed what Jan has been working on over the last 15 years. In particular with his relationship to the Herse family and his respect for French randeneuring and Japans passhunters. I hear he can be a bit of a wiener, but I still respect what he’s accomplished in the beautiful/useful niche part of cycling.
I think a lot of the comments here were actually informed by that and growing feelings that he is so seriously into it (and himself) that he can be hard to take seriously sometimes. Really do we need another scientistic post about rolling resistance and tire suppleness? Does he really believe himself when he calls an obviously derivative derailleur completely new, while at the same time he has bought the Nivex trademark? Did anyone else notice that?
At the same time, I am in awe of the guy. Does he need any sleep? Between his riding, his company, his books, his totally brand new derivative derailleur, he is certainly productive.
Last edited by Frkl; 12-17-22 at 09:59 AM.
Likes For Frkl:
#165
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,159
Mentioned: 481 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3811 Post(s)
Liked 6,710 Times
in
2,613 Posts
Likes For nlerner:
#166
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,659
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1248 Post(s)
Liked 1,323 Times
in
674 Posts
I don't know about that. It's hard not to have followed it. He is a salesman among many other things, and he has been broadcasting his sales pitch with fervor.
I think a lot of the comments here were actually informed by that and growing feelings that he is so seriously into it (and himself) that he can be hard to take seriously sometimes. Really do we need another scientistic post about rolling resistance and tire suppleness? Does he really believe himself when he calls an obviously derivative derailleur completely new, while at the same time he has bought the Nivex trademark? Did anyone else notice that?
At the same time, I am in awe of the guy. Does he need any sleep? Between his riding, his company, his books, his totally brand new derivative derailleur, he is certainly productive.
I think a lot of the comments here were actually informed by that and growing feelings that he is so seriously into it (and himself) that he can be hard to take seriously sometimes. Really do we need another scientistic post about rolling resistance and tire suppleness? Does he really believe himself when he calls an obviously derivative derailleur completely new, while at the same time he has bought the Nivex trademark? Did anyone else notice that?
At the same time, I am in awe of the guy. Does he need any sleep? Between his riding, his company, his books, his totally brand new derivative derailleur, he is certainly productive.
The C&V section is full of over the top illogical statements based on beliefs formed in peoples youths and being lived out in their old age why attack Jan?. He has played a key role in the the way we look at tires and tire width and believes in revisiting lessons learned in cycling's past and modernizing where applicable.
#167
Must be symmetrical
Bizzare attack without any foundation. Jan announced his new derailleur on his website which you need to be subscribed to receive a update. Didn't see the usual press releases and bs reviews on the marketing sites like Velonews, CyclingTips, Road, Bike Radar etc.
The C&V section is full of over the top illogical statements based on beliefs formed in peoples youths and being lived out in their old age why attack Jan?. He has played a key role in the the way we look at tires and tire width and believes in revisiting lessons learned in cycling's past and modernizing where applicable.
The C&V section is full of over the top illogical statements based on beliefs formed in peoples youths and being lived out in their old age why attack Jan?. He has played a key role in the the way we look at tires and tire width and believes in revisiting lessons learned in cycling's past and modernizing where applicable.
I also said i was in awe of the guy. He has made himself a public figure and is thus open to criticism. His position is different than a forum members behind an anonymous user name. He has intentionally positioned himself front and center, and thus can take both praise and rebuke.
He has good ideas, and as others have said, he has made a good contribution. It isn't at all contradictory to also voice an opinion that he is rather arrogant.
#168
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18378 Post(s)
Liked 4,512 Times
in
3,354 Posts
Is this designed for touring bikes.
So, if you're out in some 3rd world country and your spokes eat the derailleur for one reason or another.
Then there are no local replacements.
The only supplier in the world is out of stock.
So, one has to either hand fabricate the damaged parts.
Or perhaps come up with a way to mount a claw derailleur.
Of course those corncob rear freewheels are so very popular with tourists.
I am a little surprised that fixed upper guide pulley can accommodate such a range.
So, if you're out in some 3rd world country and your spokes eat the derailleur for one reason or another.
Then there are no local replacements.
The only supplier in the world is out of stock.
So, one has to either hand fabricate the damaged parts.
Or perhaps come up with a way to mount a claw derailleur.
Of course those corncob rear freewheels are so very popular with tourists.
Max. rear cog size: 30-tooth
Capacity: 35 teeth
Optimized for the following cassettes:
9-11-speed: 12-28 to 11-30
6-8-speed: 13-26 to 11-30
Use 10- or 12-tooth lower pulleys to optimize chain length and tension
Capacity: 35 teeth
Optimized for the following cassettes:
9-11-speed: 12-28 to 11-30
6-8-speed: 13-26 to 11-30
Use 10- or 12-tooth lower pulleys to optimize chain length and tension
#169
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 9,847
Bikes: Kirk Custom JK Special, '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) 80?? SR Semi-Pro 600 Arabesque
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2338 Post(s)
Liked 2,827 Times
in
1,543 Posts
with bands today it is all about the merch clothing, beer, wine, pot all branded
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
Likes For squirtdad:
#170
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 9,847
Bikes: Kirk Custom JK Special, '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) 80?? SR Semi-Pro 600 Arabesque
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2338 Post(s)
Liked 2,827 Times
in
1,543 Posts
Of course grant is going a different way,,,,doing his own low normal derailler
i am actually glad these guys and others are tilting at the windmills of the big guys, becuase (shimano any way) mechanical shifting is being phased out at the high end, mechancal brakes the same, and you can see a futrure of 1x.
I may or may not ever want to use those technologies, but I don;t want to be forced into them
i am actually glad these guys and others are tilting at the windmills of the big guys, becuase (shimano any way) mechanical shifting is being phased out at the high end, mechancal brakes the same, and you can see a futrure of 1x.
I may or may not ever want to use those technologies, but I don;t want to be forced into them
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
Likes For squirtdad:
#171
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,321
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 767 Post(s)
Liked 1,898 Times
in
889 Posts
@squirtdad, thanks for pointing that out. I know I'm an outlier in the grand scheme and don't expect companies to cater to the whims of the few. But the big dogs are going places that don't interest me. Electronic shifting on a bicycle? No thank you. If the supply of decent friction systems/parts dried up tomorrow, and all I could get was electronic stuff, I'd probably just take up motorcycling again and leave the bicycles behind. Probably do a lot more fishing, too. That's just me, and maybe a few others.
If these other guys, GP and JH, are gonna make a run at these retro inspired designs, great! All I ask is that they make them attractive. I'm not putting something that looks like I cobbled it together out of my son's erector set on an otherwise gorgeous bike.
If these other guys, GP and JH, are gonna make a run at these retro inspired designs, great! All I ask is that they make them attractive. I'm not putting something that looks like I cobbled it together out of my son's erector set on an otherwise gorgeous bike.
#172
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 4,476
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1829 Post(s)
Liked 3,376 Times
in
1,580 Posts
I'm not sure if BFisher is saying that the RH Nivex clone looks like an Erector set, but it sure isn't as graceful as a Campy NR derailleur. I will say that it is possible to make a Nivex clone that is a bit less refined than an Erector set, and that is the clone built by Chuck Harris a number of decades ago. Chuck made it for a bike that was going to get used, not a bike that was going to be polished and looked at (Not That There's Anything Wrong With That). It would be interesting to see what Chuck could do with stainless steel or aluminum stock that he could pick up at a hardware store nowadays.
For those who don't know Chuck, the Rivendell Reader ran a couple of articles about him. The first was an interview conducted by Sheldon Brown. The second is just a close look at Chuck's bike, which includes his Nivex clone. I'll attach it below.
Steve in Peoria (still happily using SunTour Cyclones)
Likes For steelbikeguy:
#173
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,321
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 767 Post(s)
Liked 1,898 Times
in
889 Posts
@steelbikeguy, Yes. Mr. Harris definitely gets the 'erector' award, lol. But yeah, that is what comes to my mind when I look at this Nivex. As far as the used vs polished and looked at debate, I'll keep my beautiful and tough as nails Campagnolo.
I get the small run, cost of tooling and design, all of that. But at the end of the day, it's still a fairly clunky looking piece. Why not expect more? I don't see it matching the beautiful Herse crankset so well, personally. If it were more about function, and had little to do with aesthetic, why even spring for a Herse? Or a Riv? Or any other boutique or custom machine? He could have smoothed it out and refined it substantially, and certainly knows that, but made it clear that he will not. Heck, he probably would have still sold out if he chose to refine it and doubled the price. That's cool. It's his baby. But given the image Squirtdad posted of the Riv mech, if I'm going in on a neo-Herse, it'd get the Rivendell over that Nivex every time.
I get the small run, cost of tooling and design, all of that. But at the end of the day, it's still a fairly clunky looking piece. Why not expect more? I don't see it matching the beautiful Herse crankset so well, personally. If it were more about function, and had little to do with aesthetic, why even spring for a Herse? Or a Riv? Or any other boutique or custom machine? He could have smoothed it out and refined it substantially, and certainly knows that, but made it clear that he will not. Heck, he probably would have still sold out if he chose to refine it and doubled the price. That's cool. It's his baby. But given the image Squirtdad posted of the Riv mech, if I'm going in on a neo-Herse, it'd get the Rivendell over that Nivex every time.
#174
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 4,476
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1829 Post(s)
Liked 3,376 Times
in
1,580 Posts
@steelbikeguy, Yes. Mr. Harris definitely gets the 'erector' award, lol. But yeah, that is what comes to my mind when I look at this Nivex. As far as the used vs polished and looked at debate, I'll keep my beautiful and tough as nails Campagnolo.
I get the small run, cost of tooling and design, all of that. But at the end of the day, it's still a fairly clunky looking piece. Why not expect more? I don't see it matching the beautiful Herse crankset so well, personally. If it were more about function, and had little to do with aesthetic, why even spring for a Herse? Or a Riv? Or any other boutique or custom machine? He could have smoothed it out and refined it substantially, and certainly knows that, but made it clear that he will not. Heck, he probably would have still sold out if he chose to refine it and doubled the price. That's cool. It's his baby. But given the image Squirtdad posted of the Riv mech, if I'm going in on a neo-Herse, it'd get the Rivendell over that Nivex every time.
I get the small run, cost of tooling and design, all of that. But at the end of the day, it's still a fairly clunky looking piece. Why not expect more? I don't see it matching the beautiful Herse crankset so well, personally. If it were more about function, and had little to do with aesthetic, why even spring for a Herse? Or a Riv? Or any other boutique or custom machine? He could have smoothed it out and refined it substantially, and certainly knows that, but made it clear that he will not. Heck, he probably would have still sold out if he chose to refine it and doubled the price. That's cool. It's his baby. But given the image Squirtdad posted of the Riv mech, if I'm going in on a neo-Herse, it'd get the Rivendell over that Nivex every time.
The argument that the derailleur should meet the same aesthetic standard of the cranks is good. I definitely see the logic of that! I'll let Jan offer the definitive reason why that wasn't done, but let me offer my own guess.
The cranks require dies for forging (they are forged cranks, aren't they?). The tools are expensive, but it's one set of tools per crank arm, and they expected to sell many thousands of set.
The derailleur would need that same sort of look/feel for at least the four parts of the parallelogram... so that's the front plate, the rear plate, the forward pivot, and the aft pivot. I'll guess that they could be produced with die casting instead of forging, but that tooling still isn't cheap. That's twice the amount of tooling, roughly.
When I was involved with electronics design, a common number for the cost of the tooling for a small injection molded plastic part was $10,000. That's a nice rough number to work with, but I'd love to hear from mechanical or manufacturing engineers who know the real numbers. If you figure a total of $40k for just the tooling (because there are 4 pieces to be created), and 100 derailleurs produced, that's $400 per derailleur just for the tooling! With the usual markup of 50% to 100% to get to the retail price, that's $600 to $800 of the final price. With that sort of estimate, there's no way anyone would go ahead with that sort of production process.
Again, this is a marginally informed estimate, but I haven't seen anyone produce a better estimate yet. I think Jan's decision was appropriate.
However, if someone was inclined to come forward with $40k plus the NRE for the tooling design, maybe he'd produce a prettier version?
Steve in Peoria (with fond memories of my old Erector set)
#175
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,321
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 767 Post(s)
Liked 1,898 Times
in
889 Posts
Steve,
I respect your insights, of course. I will say that anybody who makes a serious effort to produce a reliably functioning derailleur has to be pretty darn cool, Chuck Harris included. My own personal aesthetic nit picks can be taken for what they're worth.
I still think it would be interesting to see a fully realized version of this new Nivex, including more thoughtful hardware choices. Production costs are what they are, and I'm glad I'm not wrangling those sorts of things. There's a lot to like about much of the Herse stuff. I get why people splurge on them.
Brian (Not ashamed to admit that I like the Huret Allvit )
I respect your insights, of course. I will say that anybody who makes a serious effort to produce a reliably functioning derailleur has to be pretty darn cool, Chuck Harris included. My own personal aesthetic nit picks can be taken for what they're worth.
I still think it would be interesting to see a fully realized version of this new Nivex, including more thoughtful hardware choices. Production costs are what they are, and I'm glad I'm not wrangling those sorts of things. There's a lot to like about much of the Herse stuff. I get why people splurge on them.
Brian (Not ashamed to admit that I like the Huret Allvit )
Likes For BFisher: