patentcad

Forgive the BF hyperbole.

rooftest

Devil's Advocate here - if Armstrong was doping for the last 10 years, he didn't escape getting busted by letting everyone know about it. There's probably zero chance that Ball has any firsthand knowledge about Armstrong.

I don't think Hamilton ever 'fessed up to doping in his first incident - he'll probably go to the grave denying that.

ciocc_cat

I'd say closer to "impact play" than bondage. "No pain, no gain."

trustnoone

+10

It really changed my perspective of riders 'riding well'. I liked Parkin's comment at one point about not being a 'doping virgin'. The tone certainly left the impression on me that doping virgins were about as common in the peloton as as literal virgins.

I can't think of any other pro sport where the line between the athlete and the bank roll is so short. The guy in the car behind the rider is negotiating the sponsors and the riders. If there are no results the sponsor walks and everyone is out of a job maybe tomorrow. Personally I can't imagine that if a major sponsor of say The Colorado Avalanche were to walk that the team would fold at the end of the season.

A bit of apples and oranges but the point is that pro cyclists deal with a a few more stressors than other pro athletes. When a cyclists earning potential for the rest of his career is tied to any given season or even a half season with no guarantees and the DS is in the same boat with the whole team then the need for results is going to always outweigh the risks.

In any other sport would Robbie Hunter still be in the minors and would both he and McEwen be scrambling for a job next year at the 11th hour?

So, aside from a vendetta against former teammates who are still successful and maybe a book titled "Positively Lying Back Stabbing Cheat - How I swindled millions in my quest for undeserved entitlement" I don't see what Floyd is hoping to, or will accomplish. Even without USPS in the early aughts cycling will still be the circus it is, maybe more so.

trustnoone

PelotonDog would make a great handle if it isn't already taken. Just think of yourself as already being in the racing form that will take Christian Vandevelde till May to get to (Injured).

ravenmore

keep in mind, this investigation isn't strictly about doping. They are trying to prove Armstrong committed fraud and perjury.

Spring Water

And Al Capone went to jail for tax evasion.

Tulex

As if this sport, or any sport is important. Tax dollars spent on regulating and prosecuting violators of what is nothing more than entertainment.

The most asinine part of this thread is that people think drugs don't belong. "It isn't fair". Anyone that thinks the sport is there for the contenders is messed up. It's there for the viewer. The problem is that today's sports can't keep up with today's technologies. So we dumb down the sports to hold onto traditions. Therefore, it's all just a lie anyway. Like it really matters.

patentcad

I'm highly confident that Lance is smart enough to have filed relatively unimpeachable tax returns over the past 15 years. Can they audit him and get money out of him? Hell, they can do that with almost anyone who makes over $100K annually. Can they send him to jail for tax fraud? My guess is that's highly unlikely.

Spring Water

I know you're not this obtuse.

ravenmore

Just pointing out that they are not trying to catch him for doping. Fraud and perjury are worse as they are criminal offenses. And I agree with Tulex, they are spending many thousands of our tax dollars and tons of man hours trying to catch someone cheating on a sport. A complete waste of money. And they're doing it to make a name for themselves and further their careers, which ironically is the same motivation cyclist have to dope.

Spring Water

This is all about doping. The fraud slip-up is nothing more than an opening for the government.

patentcad

Don't be so sure.

Spring Water

Ok.

Tulex

This is all about government being totally out of touch with reality. They don't represent our interest in sport anymore than they represent our interests in any other aspect of our lives.

Look at baseball. They knew about doping in baseball back when the balls were flying out of the park. They pressed baseball do do something about it. Baseball, being a bit smarter than the government, and knowing about it too, said ef you to the government. Then, after all the people came back to baseball because of the homerun excitement, and only after, did baseball agree to get involved.

Now, sports is big money. Creates a lot of jobs, income, taxes, etc. Had baseball gone after the dopers before the people came back, baseball would have taken a huge hit, and therefore so would the economy. The government didn't give a crap about that. They wanted to do what they wanted to do. Our best interests? I think not.

gsteinb

So it's in your best interests if pro cyclists continue to take every increasingly dangerous drugs to stay ahead of their competition?

Spring Water

Assuming this is all accurate (separate discussion), how would killing a ton of income and jobs be more beneficial than getting cheats out of sport? I'm having a hard time actually pulling your stance from this...

ravenmore

'The fraud slip-up' happens to be the literal crime they are attempting to prosecute on. The point I was trying to make is that they are literally not trying to prosecute and punish the doping offense. You do understand the word literal don't you? If not I can provide a Wikipedia link for you.

patentcad

The drug that appears to really be dangerous is EPO, and they seem to have a handle on that danger, albeit after several dozen promising potential world class cyclists dropped dead due to the drug in the late 80's and early 90's. The wild card is that nobody knows what the long term health effects of abusing these substances are. They also don't really know what the long term effects of constant head impacts are for football players, but they're starting to find out that maybe it's not so great. In other words in my view, the health impact isn't the big issue here, it's more the overall negative impact for society.

If you could limit the use of pdas to the pros, in my personal view that would be fine. But you can't control it. Amateurs and younger athletes all the way down to the high school level will emulate them, and that is totally unacceptable. You really can't have it, period the end.

ravenmore

Maybe a Doc could chime in but I thought I read somewhere that EPO is genarally regarded to be very safe as long as it isn't abused? It has been a Godsend in treating cancer patients. It's too bad it's mainly know for its abuse because it has helped a lot of people.

gsteinb

isn't using it for something other than its intended purpose considered abuse?

and since these guys are using test, hgh, and a host of other things as well this is a bit of an imaginary conversation. even if epo is safe when monitored by a dr. I'm thinking that cat 1 from your local city with delusions of going to the show isn't likely to have the team of experts an Armstrong has.

Tulex

You seem to imply that a person has to race, has to dope. It comes down to each person making a choice for himself.

I don't care if they do or don't. The outcome of a race doesn't matter to me. It's entertainment. But if you are going to ban drugs out of fairness, then they should also regulate the amount of money teams can spend on training, coaches, nutritionists, equipment, etc. I don't think doping gives anymore of an advantage than having the resources that some teams have.

So should they do drugs? Yes, if they choose to. As pointed out, they could test for it, and make it known. The people that watch the sport would regulate it on their own.

gsteinb

I imply no such thing.

Tulex

It isn't, that's my point. The government being involved doesn't represent the peoples interest, only their own.

ravenmore

Legally it is against compliance laws. What I meant by 'abuse' is basically taking to much of it and taking it without medical supervision.