Tubular tires vs. clincher tires
02-27-19, 09:55 AM
#51
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I don't think tubulars are as hard to deal with as some make them out to be. Having learned to glue tires for cyclocross, road tubulars are hilariously easy. They are much easier to glue securely. That said, I wouldn't do everyday riding and training with them. If I have to deal with a flat, I don't want it to cost $100 and I don't want to have to tiptoe around corners for the rest of the ride. So tubulars are for race day only.
You can, but I've successfully sealed a cyclocross tubular exactly once - a Specialized Terra (I believe manufactured by Vittoria at the time, but not certain). It works only on the smallest of punctures. I haven't even been successful in sealing Clement/Donnelly tires, which are tubeless. For my money, it's worth a shot if you do happen to puncture, but you can't count on it working.
You can, but I've successfully sealed a cyclocross tubular exactly once - a Specialized Terra (I believe manufactured by Vittoria at the time, but not certain). It works only on the smallest of punctures. I haven't even been successful in sealing Clement/Donnelly tires, which are tubeless. For my money, it's worth a shot if you do happen to puncture, but you can't count on it working.
02-27-19, 10:40 AM
#52
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I don't think tubulars are as hard to deal with as some make them out to be. Having learned to glue tires for cyclocross, road tubulars are hilariously easy. They are much easier to glue securely. That said, I wouldn't do everyday riding and training with them. If I have to deal with a flat, I don't want it to cost $100 and I don't want to have to tiptoe around corners for the rest of the ride. So tubulars are for race day only. You can, but I've successfully sealed a cyclocross tubular exactly once - a Specialized Terra (I believe manufactured by Vittoria at the time, but not certain). It works only on the smallest of punctures. I haven't even been successful in sealing Clement/Donnelly tires, which are tubeless. For my money, it's worth a shot if you do happen to puncture, but you can't count on it working.
I seal about 30-40 a year for cross and have maybe 5-6 that won't seal. Usually have large cuts. On the tubed ones it's probably opposite. The fun fact about sealing like a challenge is that when the sealant comes out of the hole int he tube it will search for wherever there is a gap in the casing (which is in many places as they aren't sealed for the most part). You'll see it bubbling out of all sorts of places. Thing is if you then get it to seal (refill it a couple of times and let it sit for a day or so). then it's damn near bombproof as the inside of the casing has become sealed as well.
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02-27-19, 12:09 PM
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Are you you talking about the Tufo’s or the Continental Grand Prix 4000 tubulars, the ones where the outer casing is not a “sew up” but more of a vulcanized laminated construction? I thought that all of these still have an inner tube.
I’m just seeking clarification. Could you name a “tubular” tire that uses no inner tube or are you referring to tubeless clinchers?
02-27-19, 12:21 PM
#54
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Which tubulars would be tubeless?
Are you you talking about the Tufo’s or the Continental Grand Prix 4000 tubulars, the ones where the outer casing is not a “sew up” but more of a vulcanized laminated construction? I thought that all of these still have an inner tube.
I’m just seeking clarification. Could you name a “tubular” tire that uses no inner tube or are you referring to tubeless clinchers?
Donnelly tires are tubeless tubulars. I sell 50-150 a year. They are manufactured in the Tufo factory but so are a lot of others.
Maxxis entire lineup of tubulars this year are tubeless in construction.
More are headed that way. Donnelly took over the cross market because of their ability to be sealed.
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02-27-19, 03:24 PM
#55
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I don't think tubulars are as hard to deal with as some make them out to be. Having learned to glue tires for cyclocross, road tubulars are hilariously easy. They are much easier to glue securely. That said, I wouldn't do everyday riding and training with them. If I have to deal with a flat, I don't want it to cost $100 and I don't want to have to tiptoe around corners for the rest of the ride. So tubulars are for race day only.
You can, but I've successfully sealed a cyclocross tubular exactly once - a Specialized Terra (I believe manufactured by Vittoria at the time, but not certain). It works only on the smallest of punctures. I haven't even been successful in sealing Clement/Donnelly tires, which are tubeless. For my money, it's worth a shot if you do happen to puncture, but you can't count on it working.
You can, but I've successfully sealed a cyclocross tubular exactly once - a Specialized Terra (I believe manufactured by Vittoria at the time, but not certain). It works only on the smallest of punctures. I haven't even been successful in sealing Clement/Donnelly tires, which are tubeless. For my money, it's worth a shot if you do happen to puncture, but you can't count on it working.
This comment is yet again another by someone who does not actually ride tubulars on a regular basis.
02-27-19, 03:31 PM
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Tufo for sure.
Donnelly tires are tubeless tubulars. I sell 50-150 a year. They are manufactured in the Tufo factory but so are a lot of others.
Maxxis entire lineup of tubulars this year are tubeless in construction.
More are headed that way. Donnelly took over the cross market because of their ability to be sealed.
Donnelly tires are tubeless tubulars. I sell 50-150 a year. They are manufactured in the Tufo factory but so are a lot of others.
Maxxis entire lineup of tubulars this year are tubeless in construction.
More are headed that way. Donnelly took over the cross market because of their ability to be sealed.
02-28-19, 10:34 AM
#58
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Recent being a relative term - it was 1.5 years ago.
Of note - was talking to Donn Kellogg (the Donn in Donnelly) at CABDA a few weeks back. He specifically asked me how the name change went over. I gave him my standard spiel I would give customers when they ask what changed : "Nothing has changed except a hot patch. It's the same tire from the same factory with the same compounds/casing, etc." He said, "that's great that's what I was hoping people were getting out there" then i had to inform him of how the rest of the conversation would usually go...
Customer: "I see. Yeah that makes sense. So what's really different with them now?"
Me: "Nothing except the hot patch/label."
C: "But they aren't Clement anymore."
M: "Yeah that was just a trade name that they were licensing. It helped them get some name recognition in the beginning but they've established themselves so well that they no longer need to pay the licensing fees - that were going up substantially."
C: "So they aren't Clement anymore. What's new with these Donnelleys?"
M: "Absolutely nothing. It is still the same tire. Only the graphics changed. One shipment was Clement and the next said Donnelley. That's it."
C: "Oh I see. I think I understand. So you can't get the Clement tires anymore?"
M: *sigh*
Of note - was talking to Donn Kellogg (the Donn in Donnelly) at CABDA a few weeks back. He specifically asked me how the name change went over. I gave him my standard spiel I would give customers when they ask what changed : "Nothing has changed except a hot patch. It's the same tire from the same factory with the same compounds/casing, etc." He said, "that's great that's what I was hoping people were getting out there" then i had to inform him of how the rest of the conversation would usually go...
Customer: "I see. Yeah that makes sense. So what's really different with them now?"
Me: "Nothing except the hot patch/label."
C: "But they aren't Clement anymore."
M: "Yeah that was just a trade name that they were licensing. It helped them get some name recognition in the beginning but they've established themselves so well that they no longer need to pay the licensing fees - that were going up substantially."
C: "So they aren't Clement anymore. What's new with these Donnelleys?"
M: "Absolutely nothing. It is still the same tire. Only the graphics changed. One shipment was Clement and the next said Donnelley. That's it."
C: "Oh I see. I think I understand. So you can't get the Clement tires anymore?"
M: *sigh*
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02-28-19, 12:14 PM
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I have ridden Vittoria Rally tubulars for years and they don’t cost $ 100.00; $20 - $ 30.00 apiece. I have ridden centuries after flatting 20 miles in and never have concerns about rolling a replacement.
This comment is yet again another by someone who does not actually ride tubulars on a regular basis.
They are cheap and also ride like it. Slow and dead feeling.
A good clincher rides much better, but would cost a bit more.
02-28-19, 12:35 PM
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02-28-19, 01:12 PM
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Recent being a relative term - it was 1.5 years ago.
Of note - was talking to Donn Kellogg (the Donn in Donnelly) at CABDA a few weeks back. He specifically asked me how the name change went over. I gave him my standard spiel I would give customers when they ask what changed : "Nothing has changed except a hot patch. It's the same tire from the same factory with the same compounds/casing, etc." He said, "that's great that's what I was hoping people were getting out there" then i had to inform him of how the rest of the conversation would usually go...
Customer: "I see. Yeah that makes sense. So what's really different with them now?"
Me: "Nothing except the hot patch/label."
C: "But they aren't Clement anymore."
M: "Yeah that was just a trade name that they were licensing. It helped them get some name recognition in the beginning but they've established themselves so well that they no longer need to pay the licensing fees - that were going up substantially."
C: "So they aren't Clement anymore. What's new with these Donnelleys?"
M: "Absolutely nothing. It is still the same tire. Only the graphics changed. One shipment was Clement and the next said Donnelley. That's it."
C: "Oh I see. I think I understand. So you can't get the Clement tires anymore?"
M: *sigh*
Of note - was talking to Donn Kellogg (the Donn in Donnelly) at CABDA a few weeks back. He specifically asked me how the name change went over. I gave him my standard spiel I would give customers when they ask what changed : "Nothing has changed except a hot patch. It's the same tire from the same factory with the same compounds/casing, etc." He said, "that's great that's what I was hoping people were getting out there" then i had to inform him of how the rest of the conversation would usually go...
Customer: "I see. Yeah that makes sense. So what's really different with them now?"
Me: "Nothing except the hot patch/label."
C: "But they aren't Clement anymore."
M: "Yeah that was just a trade name that they were licensing. It helped them get some name recognition in the beginning but they've established themselves so well that they no longer need to pay the licensing fees - that were going up substantially."
C: "So they aren't Clement anymore. What's new with these Donnelleys?"
M: "Absolutely nothing. It is still the same tire. Only the graphics changed. One shipment was Clement and the next said Donnelley. That's it."
C: "Oh I see. I think I understand. So you can't get the Clement tires anymore?"
M: *sigh*
02-28-19, 07:56 PM
#62
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I rode Corsas back in the 80’s when they were “ affordable “ at $45.00 or so each. I did not notice a big difference when I switched to Rally’s as Corsas got too expensive.
03-01-19, 03:11 AM
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I rode tubulars exclusively for 22 years and a lot of miles. (All non-goathead territory.) 3 seasons of racing, decades of commuting, All my touring, many day rides. I used glues that set up hard for open racing, Tubasti for everything else including club racing. Tubasti does not set up hard. You can peel off your flatted tire, mount your spare and in a couple of miles, it's on pretty good. A huge plus is that the tire change takes 5 minutes. 5 minutes in the dark, in the rain, in the snow, in parts of town where you worry for your bike (and maybe your health).
I've been riding clinchers the past 20-25 years. They've gotten a lot better. But I also have rolled a clincher off the rim after a blowout. Crash cost me a collarbone, several ribs and an acre of skin. And I was only going ~25 mph. We have plenty of hills here where close to 50 is possible for leafs like me. I never want to see that crash going fast but I have blown tubulars at 40+. Heart stoppers but except for that, no big deal, even in front.
Tubulars are a commitment; a way of life, but there are very real benefits that don't show up in in test results.
Ben
I've been riding clinchers the past 20-25 years. They've gotten a lot better. But I also have rolled a clincher off the rim after a blowout. Crash cost me a collarbone, several ribs and an acre of skin. And I was only going ~25 mph. We have plenty of hills here where close to 50 is possible for leafs like me. I never want to see that crash going fast but I have blown tubulars at 40+. Heart stoppers but except for that, no big deal, even in front.
Tubulars are a commitment; a way of life, but there are very real benefits that don't show up in in test results.
Ben
03-01-19, 03:19 AM
#64
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I have been using Tufo Elite Road 700 x 25s for many many years. I use their glue tape and sealant and have had a total of 3 flats in nearly 20 years. The ride quality of tubulars are very nice and better tubulars even more so. I will be trying tubless on my gravel bike and see how it feels; pretty good most likely.
03-01-19, 11:47 AM
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I just went to the Vittoria website and looked at their tubulars. The 28c Corsa Competition Race look a lot like the Clement Paris-Roubaix BITD. I"m drooling. Unfortunately I just put a roof on my house, so I have to suffer through the open Corsa G+ tires I have now. I like that the G+ is on their tubulars too. Not surprised at all. I have no idea what the "magic" of the G+ is, but the G+ is a game changer. Better combination of great rolling, great grip, long wear and fewer punctures than IO have ever seen in my 50 years of riding. (Yes, I have ridden tires that could better the G+ - at one of those 4 aspects, but not match them at 2, 3 or 4 of them. Open Paves out grip the G+ in the wet - at the expense of everything else.)
,,,
Ben
,,,
Ben
I needed an emergency stop on a downhill when a car passed me then wanted to stop and turn... I braked hard enough to lock up the rear wheel and skid which took off most of the rubber which killed it. It already had a few thousand miles tho
For a winter or wet set I would prefer the Pave or equivalent rear tire for better grip. I previously used the old Vittoria Pave and got many thousands of miles on those, using caffelatex sealant
03-01-19, 12:36 PM
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I've always loved riding fast though switchback, who doesn't? I'm pretty fearless about it. I mean, gravity will get you 45 mph without pedaling through the hairpin at Washington Pass. I've never felt that tubeless was lacking.
03-01-19, 05:57 PM
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Ben
03-02-19, 05:39 PM
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03-02-19, 05:44 PM
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03-04-19, 11:07 AM
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This thread (and Psimet's posts) remind me why I have memories of going through corners at unreal speeds I would never do now. Yes I was young and foolish. Yes I was in a peleton and that was how fast you went. But I was also ridding those magic carpets that clinchers cannot hope to match. (We never knew how fast we were going. Pre-computer. But at Smuggler's Notch, the local cop had to do 60 on the straights to stay ahead of us. We weren't braking for the corners.)
Ben
Ben
Mechanic tosses him a 54 or 56. "Here - don't get dropped on the downhill."
As we age our races get faster and the mountains get higher. I get it but yeah...that speed is why we are roadies. it is something that you either get or you don't. you don't have to race to get it either but you don't really know what fast is until you race. Seriously.
Thanks for the comment.
^ - this. It's like pulling a $10 clincher out of the clearance bin at Performance after they had run their fire sale for a couple of months. "this one any good?" *facepalm*
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03-04-19, 02:02 PM
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I bought some of those Vittoria Rallys. They're lumpy, heavy, and stiff. I carry a preglued one as a flat replacement if I ride tubulars on a training ride, but that's about all I'd use it for.
09-17-19, 03:42 PM
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...
I've been riding clinchers the past 20-25 years. They've gotten a lot better. But I also have rolled a clincher off the rim after a blowout. Crash cost me a collarbone, several ribs and an acre of skin. And I was only going ~25 mph. We have plenty of hills here where close to 50 is possible for leafs like me. I never want to see that crash going fast but I have blown tubulars at 40+. Heart stoppers but except for that, no big deal, even in front.
Tubulars are a commitment; a way of life, but there are very real benefits that don't show up in in test results.
Ben
I've been riding clinchers the past 20-25 years. They've gotten a lot better. But I also have rolled a clincher off the rim after a blowout. Crash cost me a collarbone, several ribs and an acre of skin. And I was only going ~25 mph. We have plenty of hills here where close to 50 is possible for leafs like me. I never want to see that crash going fast but I have blown tubulars at 40+. Heart stoppers but except for that, no big deal, even in front.
Tubulars are a commitment; a way of life, but there are very real benefits that don't show up in in test results.
Ben
https://www.velonews.com/2019/09/bik...yrenees_500757
Not a factor for me; I"m still on those archaic aluminum jobs, but still ...
At the Alpenrose Challenge a couple of months ago, a fellow was selling some Campy hubbed tubular wheels. I didn't not note either the rim or hubs as I was in no place to make the $$ jump. Got a lucky break recently and am considering giving him a call. (He seemed completely straight up. We didn't talk price but I suspect it would be fair. Are there Campy road hubs to shy away from? CF tubular rims? If I make the jump, these would be my good wheels and I would rebuild older wheels with aluminum ~400gm rims for every day. (My bikes are DT friction shifting so cog numbers don't matter. Currently on 9-speed Campy. Can I use the 9-speed cogs with 10-speed spacers and use my current assortment? Yes, the 19-21-23 carrier cogs won't work.
Ben
09-17-19, 04:09 PM
#73
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Yeah - sealant isn't permanent and I believe too many people think it is. I only add it once there's been a problem or if I know the tire is getting old and will only last for the remainder of this season at most. People don't even top off their sealant in their regular tubeless clincher setups and at least that is maintainable.
In general I agree - I just don't bother with them for daily riding but it can easily be done. Luckily my experience with Donnelly has been different. We have saved a lot of tires and races by using sealant but I don't add it until there is already a problem. We use Orange Endurance so that it lasts the longest we can get it to last. They have large particles in it so it tends to seal a lot of tires that Cafe Latex wouldn't. Yes I have had some that just won't seal. I absolutely agree with your last statement - totally worth trying it but you can't count on it working.
I seal about 30-40 a year for cross and have maybe 5-6 that won't seal. Usually have large cuts. On the tubed ones it's probably opposite. The fun fact about sealing like a challenge is that when the sealant comes out of the hole int he tube it will search for wherever there is a gap in the casing (which is in many places as they aren't sealed for the most part). You'll see it bubbling out of all sorts of places. Thing is if you then get it to seal (refill it a couple of times and let it sit for a day or so). then it's damn near bombproof as the inside of the casing has become sealed as well.
In general I agree - I just don't bother with them for daily riding but it can easily be done. Luckily my experience with Donnelly has been different. We have saved a lot of tires and races by using sealant but I don't add it until there is already a problem. We use Orange Endurance so that it lasts the longest we can get it to last. They have large particles in it so it tends to seal a lot of tires that Cafe Latex wouldn't. Yes I have had some that just won't seal. I absolutely agree with your last statement - totally worth trying it but you can't count on it working.
I seal about 30-40 a year for cross and have maybe 5-6 that won't seal. Usually have large cuts. On the tubed ones it's probably opposite. The fun fact about sealing like a challenge is that when the sealant comes out of the hole int he tube it will search for wherever there is a gap in the casing (which is in many places as they aren't sealed for the most part). You'll see it bubbling out of all sorts of places. Thing is if you then get it to seal (refill it a couple of times and let it sit for a day or so). then it's damn near bombproof as the inside of the casing has become sealed as well.
09-17-19, 05:54 PM
#74
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A sidewall cut is generally considered a death sentence for a tubeless tire, sadly. With a tubeless clincher, you can patch the inside and it might hold for a while but it will eventually fail. With a tubeless tubular, you don't even have that option.
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