autoxnyc

Hi,

I am trying to service the Normandy front hub on my Raleigh Grand Sport but when I tried to undo the lock nuts on the axle it gets more difficult to turn when it reaches the end of the axle. The axle itself has a slot cut into it and appears to flare to a larger diameter towards the end. I am assuming to retain the nuts so they don't easily come off.

I am hesitant to use force to get the nuts off the axle since I'm not sure if I can damage them or maybe won't be able to easily put them back on. Does anyone have any experience with these Normandy hubs?

Also what size balls should I replace the old ones with? The axle doesn't turn all that smoothly and has a slight play i them.

PS. I was trying to upload some photos but can't do so because I need at least 10 posts here.

Thanks in advance!

- Daniel

FBOATSB

Welcome to bikeforums, Daniel.



Your threads are buggered all right.
I would not try to crank the locknuts off. Some judicious filing and using a sacrificial axle nut or chasing die of the appropriate size might salvage the nuts & cones. The axle probably be replaced.

FBOATSB

You need to determine what damaged the axle and address that. As far as bearing size, my memory is not what it used to be so I shouldn't guess but someone will be along that knows that. I would have to check tonight.

SurferRosa

I've done this a thousand times and always used the force of two wrenches to remove the nut. You may need to lock two nuts (cone and locknut) on the other side to apply your second wrench to a fixed spot.

Once you remove the locknuts and clean everything thoroughly, use the same nuts (or different ones of the same threading) to fix the threading of the axle by threading the nut on and off multiple times. This has always worked for me.

Don't overthink it.

Baypathbike

Agreed, counter lock the cone and nut on the opposite side and go back and forth with the offending nut using wd40 as a lubricant/cutting oil, unless its really screwed up works every time, a brass brushing of the offending threads also helps, they might just be crudded up.

Salamandrine 

The slot is normal. A lot of hubs have slotted axle threads. The flare at the end of the axle is not. No way to know how that happened. Lots of hacks out there.

I would also suggest using lots of lube and trying to force the locknut past the distortion. You can file the end slightly if there's a burr or something. It the axle is too mangled for this, you could run a die on the threads to clean them up. Should be 9x1mm

Keep in mind you only need to undo the lock nut and cone on one side. So pick the one with the least obvious damage.

I've rebuilt a lot of Normandy hubs (BITD). They are super normal in every way. Can't recall the ball size offhand. 3/16" I think but double check.

rustystrings61 

FWIW, the basic classic Normandy Sport, when cleaned and repacked with good bearings and good grease, can be a remarkably smooth running hub. I think they're worth the bother.

I wish there were readily available replacement cones for the fancier Normandy Luxe Competition, though I will note that the nasty pitted ones in my Puch's wheels still run shockingly smoothly.

conspiratemus1

3/16" balls for a Normandy front. This is fresh in my memory because I bought one, laced into an MA-2 rim for like 20 bucks about 2 years ago, and took it apart to re-grease it.


Unless the ends of the axle are grossly deformed with chunks out of the threads, much worse than yours appear to be, twisting the locknut off through them with oil or some such should clean them up. Even Campagnolo locknuts resist a little. The hard part is immobilizing the axle so it doesn't turn. Cinch the locknut gently to the cone at the other end of the axle and then hold the far-side cone with a cone wrench. (That way, when you twist the nut counter-clockwise, the far-side cone wants to drive into the far-side locknut, stabilizing it. If you hold the far-side locknut, it will tend to back away from the cone (unless it's cinched tight), de-stabilizing it. For the far side, you're looking at the "back of the clock", right?) The slot in the axle is nice here because if there is old grease and dirt in the threads, the slot will work like the flute of a thread tap to evacuate the crud as you turn the nut...and that may be all you need.


Hint: check the other end of the axle. If the locknut comes off that side easier, just retighten the "bad" side and leave it alone. Remove the nut and cone from the "good" side in this and all future overhauls. Unless the cone on the "fixed" side needs to be replaced, or the axle itself (assuming you can even find replacements), you only need to remove the parts on one end of the axle.

Happy Feet

Also, wait to see what the bearings look like after a little bath in wd40.
Sometimes old dried grease makes them feel rough but they turn out to be in good shape.

autoxnyc

Thank you everyone for the helpful responses. I totally didn't think of the idea I only have to take off one end to get the hub apart even though I overhauled vintage hubs before =) However this is happening on both ends. Upon really close look it appears the ends of the axle were somehow crushed towards each other so where the threads starts is pushed against the next loop of threads. That's why the nuts hit almost a hard stop at the very tip of the axle when I try to remove them.

Would it be safe to just force the nut off? Assuming the hardness of the nut is higher than that of the threads on the axle? Or should I use a die to fix this?

francophile 

Other than forcing it off and have the nut re-chase the threads, not sure what else to do. Trying to use a die to cut new threads with the nut on there still is far too precarious.

If worst comes to worse, no doubt you can find someone here with a replacement hollow axle. I may actually have one, I donated a new shell to someone here on BF a couple years ago, I think I still have the internals (assuming it wasn't solid axle).

Don't forget: Save your self a lot of pain only unlocking nuts from one side to repack, don't touch the other side. Then there's no second-guessing and adjusting both sides later.

Salamandrine 

For sure using a die first is preferable if practical. There may not be enough axle sticking out to get started.
The lock nut should be harder than the axle. I can't see enough detail to gauge the problem. Might be safe, might not be safe. If you feel like you are going to damage the nuts and cones, you can always hack off the ends of the axle, remove the cones etc, and put them on a new axle.

JohnDThompson 

Yes, the threads look buggered on the axle. A thread file might be able to clean them up. Otherwise, those were common hubs on bike-boom era bikes and replacement axles shouldn't be too hard to find.

3/16" balls in the front hub, 1/4" balls in the rear hub.

autoxnyc

Photo of the axle end below:

speedevil 

I would replace the axle. Should be easy to find a replacement of the proper length and likely less than $10. A lot less if you have a local bike co-op. And if you agree about the replacement, just use a grinder or file and form a conical shape on the end of the axle, removing the damaged threads as you make the conical shape.

This way you shouldn't have to force the locknut or the cone off the damaged axle. You may have to do this on both sides, but you'll be saving the cones and locknuts for use on the new axle.

The damaged axle is going to be more trouble than it's worth in the long run - clean, repack the bearings, insert the new axle, adjust the preload, and move on.

conspiratemus1

Couldn't you just file off that very outer flared-out edge to free the valley of the next thread? (Clamp the axle at the other end by its nut & cone in a vise to give yourself purchase for filing.)

Salamandrine 

Agreed. Filing a 45º bevel around the ends of the axle would be my very first move. That may remove the obstruction sufficiently to allow the nuts to spin off.

I can't see clearly from the small pictures, but it looks like it could simply be a burr from cutting the existing axle to length. No need for sharp threads all the way to the edge.

But, the slot on that axle looks larger than it should be, though it's been decades since I've rebuilt a Normandy hub. I'm thinking this might be some cheap repurposed axle salvaged from an MTB or something. The non cheapskate solution would be a new axle.

merziac

A thread file would be the first choice, has to be correct thread as all else as well. I use a right angle pic to dig/scribe any loose or soft threads back in to shape as best I can.

A wire wheel can be carefully used to smooth out the threads some, then anti seize for lube doing 1 step forward, 2 steps back turns with the nut can restore the threads if you are diligent, too much force will ruin the nut, go slow and work through it.

A die can work, often they are too sharp and if it doesn't follow the original threads can wipe out too much material. You need a chaser/rethreader and it has to be the correct thread. I make my own for odd ball bike threads and have a couple of big sets for common threads.

autoxnyc

Hit my 5 post limit yesterday. Gonna try to post the close up photos again. I ordered a thread file and going to try that route first.

Baypathbike

You should be able to work your way right through that with the back and forth method described in numerous posts above, don't over think this, if your really worried about the Neanderthal approach, clean up the burr with the file before you start with the nut and lube solution.

rustystrings61 

After seeing the pix, I am curious - is this mangled axle end perhaps an artifact of running a quick release skewer on those thin, thin, stamped dropouts Raleigh used on the Gran Sport? My memory is that I had trouble running a conventional Normandy rear hub with skewer on an ancient Raleigh Lenton when I was trying to run it as a fixed-gear - the amount of axle sticking out past the locknuts was just a whisker too much, and it required using derailleur mounting claws on the dropouts to get the skewer to clamp properly. Is that possibly what caused this problem?

madpogue 

^^^^ To the issue @rustystrings61 describes above, I noticed the same on an old Grand Prix with stamped dropouts with no derailleur hanger. Dropouts were thin, but there's the extra thickness of the RD claw on the drive side. So I "offset" the cones/locknuts so that there's more axle sticking out on the drive side.

SurferRosa

I've been down this path more than a few times, and it's often as much trouble finding a replacement. A new one would cost me at least $18. Then I'd have to hacksaw it. One found at a co-op would cost me an hour or more of hunting and frustration ... and it still may not work. This is why I always try to correct the problem with the current one. Unless it's not long enough after correcting the issue, it's less trouble to merely fix the threads.

SalsaShark

I would simply remove the boogered up thread ends either with a flat bastard file, or maybe even carefully on a belt sander. Once you remove the damaged last thread, you should be in business....doesnt look like you need that much axle sticking out anyway.

tiger1964 

+1, I think I have the same set as you -- alas, cannot remember where I bought it (Northern Tool? Harbor Freight?) Did not realize for years the difference between "thread chasers" and "tap and die".