Modern Steel Road Bike Appreciation Thread
01-25-16, 04:53 PM
#376
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01-25-16, 04:53 PM
#377
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The BB stiffness thread is an us versus them thread.
The new versus old aluminum thread was a chance for the age all "all aluminum harsh, all steel good" argument.
Even the BD vs piecemeal build hovers around a steel Motobecane.
Mayhaps I am overly sensitive, but good golly, these are all bicycles. Why do people need so much affirmation that they have the best one? I am not trying to harsh on the OP, but steel doesn't need defending. IMHO, defending it fuels the bickering.
Sorry. Just really feeling the futility of discussion forums.
01-25-16, 05:11 PM
#378
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I think I stated the premise and reason behind this thread in the OP. It's not a place to bicker, just a spot to share and fawn over modern steel road bikes.
Just a couple of posts back someone was happy to find this thread because they are considering a steel road bike. That's a good reason to have this info located in one thread as well.
And there's no requirement to participate if you don't like the thread
Just a couple of posts back someone was happy to find this thread because they are considering a steel road bike. That's a good reason to have this info located in one thread as well.
And there's no requirement to participate if you don't like the thread
01-25-16, 06:04 PM
#379
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01-25-16, 06:17 PM
#380
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I come to this thread not for the debate that is here ( I bring my own, thank you) but to look at beautiful steel bikes that I will likely not be able to afford unless several miracles happen. I also come here to steal paint ideas, measure other people's seat-bar drops, and calculate stem lengths and angles versus frame size---so I have enough information to understand what others are debating.
01-25-16, 06:20 PM
#381
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If it works for you it's a good bike.
Yeah, the straight sweep of my original MTB bars (CF Synchros) didn't feel very natural. Think about it; if you just hold your hands out they naturally are in the vertical position, not horizontal.
I looked at several high-end bars (i.e. Nitto) but couldn't find the style I wanted. eBay to the rescue, and at a bargain price:
Mary Style Mountain Bike MTB Handlebar Bar | eBay
Much happier with this set-up and I think it looks better as well...
Yeah, the straight sweep of my original MTB bars (CF Synchros) didn't feel very natural. Think about it; if you just hold your hands out they naturally are in the vertical position, not horizontal.
I looked at several high-end bars (i.e. Nitto) but couldn't find the style I wanted. eBay to the rescue, and at a bargain price:
Mary Style Mountain Bike MTB Handlebar Bar | eBay
Much happier with this set-up and I think it looks better as well...
Now, I'll bow out and let this thread return to its regularly-scheduled programming.
01-25-16, 06:31 PM
#383
Decrepit Member
Originally Posted by Keith Noronha
Although Reynolds do not have documents we can release regarding the manufacturing process for 953 frame-sets, I can mention some aspects that may be of specific interest to you:
- The basic concept of 953 butting does follow the principle established in the Reynolds patent of 1898! See page 6 attached.
- But as the strength of materials has more than quadrupled since then, we have to use higher strength mandrels and cold-drawing dies now.
- We also had to develop a new lubrication system for the cold-draw operation because the tubes are thinner wall, stainless and much harder to start with (affecting the amount of energy needed to cold-draw the tubes).
- The starting size tubes and subsequent heat-treatment process has to allow for the “maraging” transformation in the metal (this changes the dimensions of the tube more than a typical steel like 853/725). Otherwise the tubes would not fit normal lugs!
- For items like the seat stays and chainstays, these have to be cold-drawn and re-annealed several times from a large starting size tube before we can turn them into the shaped parts you see on the frame. With conventional steels, we buy in tubes at the size needed.
- Because the production of the seamed tubes was a challenge around 2008-2010 from that supplier, we had to change sourcing for the start size material to improve the quality. We have to accept that even making the raw material tube from the “sheet” is not an easy task and adds cost into the product! The alloy used will only be sourced from Carpenter in PA, USA.
Hope this helps,
Best Regards
Keith Noronha
Managing Director
Reynolds Technology Ltd
Reynolds Technology
- The basic concept of 953 butting does follow the principle established in the Reynolds patent of 1898! See page 6 attached.
- But as the strength of materials has more than quadrupled since then, we have to use higher strength mandrels and cold-drawing dies now.
- We also had to develop a new lubrication system for the cold-draw operation because the tubes are thinner wall, stainless and much harder to start with (affecting the amount of energy needed to cold-draw the tubes).
- The starting size tubes and subsequent heat-treatment process has to allow for the “maraging” transformation in the metal (this changes the dimensions of the tube more than a typical steel like 853/725). Otherwise the tubes would not fit normal lugs!
- For items like the seat stays and chainstays, these have to be cold-drawn and re-annealed several times from a large starting size tube before we can turn them into the shaped parts you see on the frame. With conventional steels, we buy in tubes at the size needed.
- Because the production of the seamed tubes was a challenge around 2008-2010 from that supplier, we had to change sourcing for the start size material to improve the quality. We have to accept that even making the raw material tube from the “sheet” is not an easy task and adds cost into the product! The alloy used will only be sourced from Carpenter in PA, USA.
Hope this helps,
Best Regards
Keith Noronha
Managing Director
Reynolds Technology Ltd
Reynolds Technology
01-25-16, 06:35 PM
#384
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Carpenter is a kick-ass supplier of stainless alloys. You can't do better.
01-25-16, 06:39 PM
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01-25-16, 06:42 PM
#386
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Is everyone done bickering yet?
Here’s a photo of my bike. It looks traditional, but the frame and components are new. I like it a lot.
Here’s a photo of my bike. It looks traditional, but the frame and components are new. I like it a lot.
01-25-16, 06:50 PM
#387
Decrepit Member
Separately, I wrote Reynolds several years ago about fracture toughness, hardness, and ductility/brittleness of aged 953, and Terry Bill replied (this was before Terry retired). I wrote up Terry's reply, accurately paraphrasing.
Originally Posted by Scooper
In response to my query about strength, hardness and ductility (brittleness) of 953 specifically, Reynolds replied that (accurately paraphrasing) for 953, the alloy chemistry and structure after martensitic aging (maraging) results in a material with optimal strength (measured in MPa) and toughness (measured by a stress intensity factor, K). This is because the strengthening comes via iron-nickel lath (plate) martensite and inter-metallic fine precipates - so the result is a very strong, hard tube that is also very tough. The base material for Reynolds 953 is Carpenter Custom 455 stainless steel, developed by Carpenter Research Laboratory, and used for armor plating and for manufacturing landing gear components on combat jet aircraft designed for landing on aircraft carriers. In these applications, toughness without fracturing is a paramount objective.
To test the toughness of 953, Reynolds subjected round tubes of various diameters and wall thickness to "flattening" tests (from round to oval of less than 70% of the original diameter without any sign of cracking along the tube). Basically, fracture toughness is the resistance of a material to abrupt, brittle failure at stresses below its yield strength when various stress concentrations are present. It is described by a stress intensity parameter, K. 953 exhibits very good fracture toughness.
To test the toughness of 953, Reynolds subjected round tubes of various diameters and wall thickness to "flattening" tests (from round to oval of less than 70% of the original diameter without any sign of cracking along the tube). Basically, fracture toughness is the resistance of a material to abrupt, brittle failure at stresses below its yield strength when various stress concentrations are present. It is described by a stress intensity parameter, K. 953 exhibits very good fracture toughness.
Last edited by Scooper; 01-25-16 at 06:54 PM.
01-25-16, 06:56 PM
#388
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That's gorgeous! What size tires?
01-25-16, 06:56 PM
#389
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I come to this thread not for the debate that is here ( I bring my own, thank you) but to look at beautiful steel bikes that I will likely not be able to afford unless several miracles happen. I also come here to steal paint ideas, measure other people's seat-bar drops, and calculate stem lengths and angles versus frame size---so I have enough information to understand what others are debating.
This frame was $2500 in 2004 -- its now mine for the princely sum of $500 --- complete with integrated headset, stiff carbon fork and a modern appearance -- you just need to feel pretty confident in what size you need, naturally I wasn't specifically looking for this frame , rather i was looking for any later production Italian steel frame - but after i saw it, i did a little research and placed a bid.
--- I promise to post a pic when the build is done -- i ran into complications with a shifter and a couple other small issues that i need to run to the bike shop for (cable ends, longer recessed brake bolts -- things like that )
Regarding seat to bar and stem length -- right now this is not one to look at too critically -- that stem is just there to hold the bars on
01-25-16, 07:01 PM
#390
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01-25-16, 07:07 PM
#391
Decrepit Member
Ah, Jan Heine. They look really good with that frameset.
P.S. That gearing looks like you could tackle Mount Everest.
P.S. That gearing looks like you could tackle Mount Everest.
Last edited by Scooper; 01-25-16 at 07:11 PM.
01-25-16, 10:49 PM
#392
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My Kona Roadhouse should be ready by the coming weekend. Can't wait, but the weather is kinda sucky here. Hope it'll get decent enough for me to do at least a 30 mile ride. Will post pics when available.
01-26-16, 04:39 AM
#393
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I really appreciate this Inox frame. A little bit of paint, a little bit of skin.... More modern in this scheme
Also available in white + blue, with a little more classic look.
Also available in white + blue, with a little more classic look.
Last edited by kbarch; 01-26-16 at 04:45 AM.
01-26-16, 05:10 AM
#394
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paint is too busy, and those modern campy cranks are an eyesore, but the aesthetic proportions and geometry are lovely. wonder what the handlebars are... shaped a bit like my Deda
01-26-16, 05:53 AM
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If you go for their regular build kit, the bars are in fact Deda, like the stem and seatpost (which are just custom painted).
01-26-16, 06:11 AM
#396
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01-26-16, 06:15 AM
#397
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The Casati Inox RS is fillet brazed Columbus XCr stainless, and the paint scheme cleverly covers all of the fillet brazed joints. I think it works nicely. The yellowish brass at the fillet brazed joints contrasts with the silver stainless tubes on an unpainted frame, and can be distracting.
The SOMA Smoothie SS has an unpainted fillet brazed stainless frame. Some folks like the contrasting brass color of the fillet brazed joints, some don't.
The SOMA Smoothie SS has an unpainted fillet brazed stainless frame. Some folks like the contrasting brass color of the fillet brazed joints, some don't.
01-26-16, 06:26 AM
#398
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Last edited by joejack951; 01-26-16 at 06:29 AM.
01-26-16, 06:41 AM
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Scooter's contribution straight from the horse's mouth says that no, the butting isn't the issue. But, Scooter also mentions in his paraphrasing from another Reynold's response that this metal was "developed by Carpenter Research Laboratory, and used for armor plating and for manufacturing landing gear components on combat jet aircraft designed for landing on aircraft carriers." Given that and from what I've found available in terms of raw material in 455 (such as from Ulbrich: https://www.ulbrich.com/custom-455/), I'm inclined to think that Reynold's is forming and welding tubes simply because they can't purchase 455 in a seamless tube configuration. I don't believe Reynolds actually does seamless drawing of tube (focusing on the production of tubesets instead, i.e. doing the final forming, adding the butted ends, and final heat treatment) but I could be wrong.