Sizing Up a Raleigh International
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To me, "rando dream" and "turn key" don't usually go together, especially for vintage bikes. It kind of depends on what your rando dream is. To me, it starts with a bike that's comfortable, relaxed gearing, and a front handlebar bag. To be honest, that last part is mostly a visual part of my rando dream bike idea, but it's also very convenient. It became a part of the rando image for a reason. Comfortable is subjective, but proper fit is a critical part of it for everyone. You should cross bikes that don't fit well of your list immediately. I like triples, and I wouldn't consider a bike for this purpose that didn't have either a triple or a double with a 30T or lower small chainring. That rules out original components for most (but not all) vintage bikes. There are a number of ways to solve the handlebar bag issue, but none is better than a high mid-fork braze-ons for a front rack. Finally, a rando bike needs a way to carry water. Sure, you can clamp on cages or whatever, but it's hard to beat two or three sets of water bottle bosses. For all of these reasons, I'd like to suggest that the absolute best starting point for a "dream" vintage rando bike is a bare frame that fits you, has good tire clearance, and bad paint (this last helping mostly with purchase price). If you don't want a project, you can pay someone to do the work, (I could recommend someone who does good work at a reasonable price. Hint: he's posted a couple of times on this thread already.)
Here was my rando dream bike
As purcashed:
After I threw way too much money at it:
Yes, I spent a bit (*ahem*) more than the asking price of the Raleigh you asked about, but I got exactly what I wanted.
I really like Raleigh Internationals. The ones that are well-made are as nice as any bike of the time period. I'm a sucker for the chrome lugs. The asking prices, though. Oy! I'm not sure how this happened. There's one on my local Craigslist in pretty rough shape with non-original components that has been there for almost two years. I think when I first saw it the seller wanted $2000. They've stopped attaching a price. I see frames selling anywhere from $200 to $400 in good condition. I've seen complete bikes sell for under $500, but those go quick. I guess some people get $1000+ for them on eBay, but probably only if they are in excellent condition, which I don't think the one in the first post is (close-ups reveal paint issues).
I don't know if the picture that shows the whole bike is really the one the seller is selling. The artsy style of the pic contrasted with the others makes me question. I've got an International that I'm pretty sure is 23.5". I'm 5'9" and this is what mine looks like with the bars set up about level with the saddle.
You're considerably taller than me, so picture where you'd have the saddle and bars.
Here was my rando dream bike
As purcashed:
After I threw way too much money at it:
Yes, I spent a bit (*ahem*) more than the asking price of the Raleigh you asked about, but I got exactly what I wanted.
I really like Raleigh Internationals. The ones that are well-made are as nice as any bike of the time period. I'm a sucker for the chrome lugs. The asking prices, though. Oy! I'm not sure how this happened. There's one on my local Craigslist in pretty rough shape with non-original components that has been there for almost two years. I think when I first saw it the seller wanted $2000. They've stopped attaching a price. I see frames selling anywhere from $200 to $400 in good condition. I've seen complete bikes sell for under $500, but those go quick. I guess some people get $1000+ for them on eBay, but probably only if they are in excellent condition, which I don't think the one in the first post is (close-ups reveal paint issues).
I don't know if the picture that shows the whole bike is really the one the seller is selling. The artsy style of the pic contrasted with the others makes me question. I've got an International that I'm pretty sure is 23.5". I'm 5'9" and this is what mine looks like with the bars set up about level with the saddle.
You're considerably taller than me, so picture where you'd have the saddle and bars.
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Here’s one. I think 23.5” . needs thorough cleaning but appears all there. Price more reasonable than others.
https://akroncanton.craigslist.org/b...206012041.html
https://akroncanton.craigslist.org/b...206012041.html
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Well, im not so sure about this one. I’d call it a key physical aspect, not just visual, for a few reasons. As far as I know front bags have been a part of randonneuring since the 1930s due to needing to reach for the basic necessities and sustenance on such incredibly long rides without stopping. Now, when it comes to mounting a front rack for said bag, frame features are key. The racks are situated at the front and as close to the fender as possible for handling reasons. Most bikes won’t allow this without a custom rack. Having canti posts or mid fork eyelets is a start, but if you look at the classic randos they mostly all have small braze ons closer to the brakes meant specifically for optimal front rack positioning. When using cantilever posts or mid fork eyelets and a non custom rack you may get close to optimal positioning but not great. If I was building a “dream” rando rig I think details like this would be important to me.
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#29
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This is great info! Can you reveal who might be the affordable bike tech/dream fulfiller?
#31
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These are all great points, and so much to consider. To me, these are the key takeaways:
1) This option "solves" my problem with money vs time. (I've got 34-ish months before PBP 2023--likely my first and last chance to accomplish that goal--and I think I'm going to need every day of it to get in the shape to make it a possibility.)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/174459237383
2) I could source a frame and build from there--this saves money vs time. If you are one or know of a reliable and simpatico bike mechanic/dream-come-true maker in SoCal/the West, that could help me make this more attractive.
Lastly, if I go with option 2, here is a crazy long list of potential platforms for a build. Please feel encouraged to read as much as you can stomach, and comment without restraint!
Raleigh
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-Raleig...53.m1438.l2649 (Ticks all the boxes but feels overpriced?)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-Raleig...y/264513461974
ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
https://losangeles.craigslist.org/la...205450643.html
Schwinn
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1973-Schwin...53.m1438.l2649
https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/...206208689.html
KHS
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-KHS...53.m1438.l2649
https://losangeles.craigslist.org/la...205280575.html
Fuji
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fuji-1980s-...53.m1438.l2649
Windsor
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/...206234143.html
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/...205810687.html
Miyata
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/...205664887.html
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Miyata-One-...53.m1438.l2649
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-MIY...53.m1438.l2649
Nishiki
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/...203014050.html
Quintana
https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/...188276050.html
Univega
https://inlandempire.craigslist.org/...178492330.html
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Univega-Sup...53.m1438.l2649
Puch
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-Kuwahar...53.m1438.l2649
Centurion
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Centurion-S...53.m1438.l2649
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VTG-CENTURI...53.m1438.l2649
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CENTURION-I...53.m1438.l2649
Velosolex
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-197...53.m1438.l2649
Lygie
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Yel...53.m1438.l2649
Trek
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Tre...53.m1438.l2649
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Classic-Tre...8AAOSwWpFfdeOw
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TREK-700-TR...cAAOSw8PpfSsad
https://www.ebay.com/itm/27-Speed-Me...MAAOSwq~5e2W1C
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Trek-Vintag...YAAOSwGMVfVpCJ
Emperor Maruishi
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Emperor-Mar...53.m1438.l2649
1) This option "solves" my problem with money vs time. (I've got 34-ish months before PBP 2023--likely my first and last chance to accomplish that goal--and I think I'm going to need every day of it to get in the shape to make it a possibility.)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/174459237383
2) I could source a frame and build from there--this saves money vs time. If you are one or know of a reliable and simpatico bike mechanic/dream-come-true maker in SoCal/the West, that could help me make this more attractive.
Lastly, if I go with option 2, here is a crazy long list of potential platforms for a build. Please feel encouraged to read as much as you can stomach, and comment without restraint!
Raleigh
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-Raleig...53.m1438.l2649 (Ticks all the boxes but feels overpriced?)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-Raleig...y/264513461974
ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
https://losangeles.craigslist.org/la...205450643.html
Schwinn
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1973-Schwin...53.m1438.l2649
https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/...206208689.html
KHS
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-KHS...53.m1438.l2649
https://losangeles.craigslist.org/la...205280575.html
Fuji
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fuji-1980s-...53.m1438.l2649
Windsor
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/...206234143.html
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/...205810687.html
Miyata
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/...205664887.html
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Miyata-One-...53.m1438.l2649
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-MIY...53.m1438.l2649
Nishiki
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/...203014050.html
Quintana
https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/...188276050.html
Univega
https://inlandempire.craigslist.org/...178492330.html
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Univega-Sup...53.m1438.l2649
Puch
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-Kuwahar...53.m1438.l2649
Centurion
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Centurion-S...53.m1438.l2649
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VTG-CENTURI...53.m1438.l2649
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CENTURION-I...53.m1438.l2649
Velosolex
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-197...53.m1438.l2649
Lygie
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Yel...53.m1438.l2649
Trek
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Tre...53.m1438.l2649
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Classic-Tre...8AAOSwWpFfdeOw
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TREK-700-TR...cAAOSw8PpfSsad
https://www.ebay.com/itm/27-Speed-Me...MAAOSwq~5e2W1C
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Trek-Vintag...YAAOSwGMVfVpCJ
Emperor Maruishi
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Emperor-Mar...53.m1438.l2649
#32
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Andy K. mentioned he might have a rec, someone who has posted in this thread...
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Well, im not so sure about this one. I’d call it a key physical aspect, not just visual, for a few reasons. As far as I know front bags have been a part of randonneuring since the 1930s due to needing to reach for the basic necessities and sustenance on such incredibly long rides without stopping. Now, when it comes to mounting a front rack for said bag, frame features are key. The racks are situated at the front and as close to the fender as possible for handling reasons. Most bikes won’t allow this without a custom rack. Having canti posts or mid fork eyelets is a start, but if you look at the classic randos they mostly all have small braze ons closer to the brakes meant specifically for optimal front rack positioning. When using cantilever posts or mid fork eyelets and a non custom rack you may get close to optimal positioning but not great. If I was building a “dream” rando rig I think details like this would be important to me.
I tend to agree with you about the braze-ons closer to the brakes. This is what I meant by "high mid-fork". It's not without problems though, depending on your choice of brakes. I had @gugie add such braze-ons to my 1969 Raleigh Competition, but I'm using dual-pivot caliper brakes, so the rack is a bit higher than is ideal.
I use a pretty small bag with this one, so it's not a big deal. I suppose I could bend the rack bracket to drop down again after it has cleared the brake. With cantilever brakes this is easier to avoid and as a bonus the brake doesn't interfere with the fender.
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Sure. It's @gugie.
I claim to be the best 650b/rando conversion guy,
In the Portland Metro area,
In my price range.
A few words from my publicist.
Pics or it didn't happen: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gugie/albums
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I'll weigh in. I had/have a rando dream also, but at my age, PBP might never happen, so I'm attuned to your window of opportunity. If you intend to prepare on the bicycle you're going to take, I think your only feasible option is to buy what you want - at least as far as potential modifications and painting is concerned. I went the gugie route and was well pleased with the result. I started with a frame that had a borderline-at-best paint job that I had purchased several years earlier for about $200. Beyond that, doing my own painting afterward and building my own wheels, I spent at least $1,000 more to get it on the road (not including lighting) - which included converting to cantilever posts, adding braze-ons, buying brakes, shifters, cranks, derailleurs, hubs, rims, and fenders. I love the result - even though I still need to get around to finishing the lighting and buying a proper bag, but it took time.
From the bicycles you listed as options, I think the first international looks like it would take minimal adaptations to get it to where you want it. Yes, it's expensive/overpriced, but you can see if the seller would be open to changing the listing the allow you to make an offer. This said, that's not the only bike out there, but I think that you're time-limited to something that's close to ready-to-ride.
Looked through the rest. Although it doesn't have quite the cachet, the Raleigh Touring 18 looks quite good to me, as does the Miyata 1000. If you think you'd be comfortable for days on a bike with more upright geometry, the Centurions and some of the Treks could be ok.
From the bicycles you listed as options, I think the first international looks like it would take minimal adaptations to get it to where you want it. Yes, it's expensive/overpriced, but you can see if the seller would be open to changing the listing the allow you to make an offer. This said, that's not the only bike out there, but I think that you're time-limited to something that's close to ready-to-ride.
Looked through the rest. Although it doesn't have quite the cachet, the Raleigh Touring 18 looks quite good to me, as does the Miyata 1000. If you think you'd be comfortable for days on a bike with more upright geometry, the Centurions and some of the Treks could be ok.
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Last edited by USAZorro; 10-02-20 at 02:01 PM.
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#37
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I have a question - How much of the PBP today is still ridden on cobblestones? Is it really necessary to pursue converting to 650B with the extra time that would entail vs. riding it on, say, 32 or 38 mm wide tires?
If the answer is that 650B is a must-have, do the maitres-de-randonneur like @gugie and Peter Weigle ever build ahead so that a properly converted frame could be sourced more quickly than waiting for the right donor bike to come up for sale and then go through the modification, paint & build process?
If the answer is that 650B is a must-have, do the maitres-de-randonneur like @gugie and Peter Weigle ever build ahead so that a properly converted frame could be sourced more quickly than waiting for the right donor bike to come up for sale and then go through the modification, paint & build process?
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IMHO, if you're aiming to ride PBP and plan on a brevet series to get you there, I'd avoid old bikes and their limitations and go with something contemporary. You could do a lot for $1500, such as this one.
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That's a very practical option, but I fear that after having spoken to gugie I'm even more committed to seeing this through on vintage steel. I'm getting something like the Miyata 1000 to ride now (a lot), and think/work toward a frame-up build that makes a rando dream a reality!
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That's a very practical option, but I fear that after having spoken to gugie I'm even more committed to seeing this through on vintage steel. I'm getting something like the Miyata 1000 to ride now (a lot), and think/work toward a frame-up build that makes a rando dream a reality!
That Miyata 1000 linked above is a nice big one, with a short top tube - 62x57cm. Leggy, short-torso’d me would love it, but I’ve already got a Miyata 912, rando-modded with Gugificazione! And FWIW, that 1000 is not a 650B conversion candidate without gugie ’s help with canti post placement. Plenty of room for fat 700C tires, however, assuming the brake pads can adjusted for the 4mm smaller radius rim.
The seatpost on it is probably not ideal for a Brooks saddle since it has zero setback, although potentially OK with a plastic-based saddle with longer rails. Miyatas take a less common 26.8mm diameter post, but they are out there (and I’ve got a few extra).
Gugie is THE guy to talk to on rando builds on vintage steel. Also look for lonesomesteve ’s 650B conversions using early Treks.
Last edited by Dfrost; 10-02-20 at 06:13 PM.
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Are you really older than Neal? I thought I was one of the few.
Some day, I'm going to find out what his "conversion" story is. I have a Raleigh Professional Mk I in his size waiting for him when he visits. It's a size large for me, and has been very sparingly ridden, but it has a couple great stories in the books.
Some day, I'm going to find out what his "conversion" story is. I have a Raleigh Professional Mk I in his size waiting for him when he visits. It's a size large for me, and has been very sparingly ridden, but it has a couple great stories in the books.
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I’m fairly sure I’m older than Andy, but @gugie has a couple of years on me. John, I can’t imagine you’re older than I am—though keeping time in the COVID era presents all kinds of new variations.
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I’m fairly sure I’m older than Andy, but @gugie has a couple of years on me. John, I can’t imagine you’re older than I am—though keeping time in the COVID era presents all kinds of new variations.
I showed John pics from the Last Winter Tour, we went 50, 59, 61, 62, 68, 69 and 71, as I recall, and Bill at 71 was pulling at the front most of the time.
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I just want to point out for the record that the emoji uses my current age (": 50 :"), and I was only 49 when I did the Last Winter Tour of the Willamette Valley.
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On a ride a couple of weeks ago, my fellow riders were 65, 68, and 75. Felt kinda nice to be the young guy.