one4smoke

The nose of these saddles "look" to be raised way to much when you get them adjusted right, but I really think it's more of an optical illusion. The way they are designed, for your sit bones to be placed properly or level in the saddle, the nose must come up to what looks to be abnormally high. Notice I said "in" instead of "on" ...because unlike most saddles this one you are truly in it.

stevoo

Yup, agree 100% on adjusting angle etc until it works for you when you ride. Static measurements mean nothing.
Also, the adjustment will be different from bike to bike. An upright bike adjustment will be different than what a racer boy 5 inch saddle to bar drop would be.
Once you get really close there is always then the slight compromise between adjusting for peak happiness as all bar positions are different. From bent elbows in the drops to upright on the hoods or back on the straight part of the bar. Even need to change again if you use aero bars too.
Bottom line is dont be afraid to adjust any saddle. A degree or so can make a world of difference.
Good luck.

frogmorton

Wattsup

Good point about measuring distances to document a previous saddle position!

Thanks all. I rode again yesterday, had planned to do a 30 mile gravel ride with the saddle, but cut it short (15mi) because I was slipping again towards the front. It really pissed me off to have to push back on the bars for miles, even though it was just minimal pressure. The frustration adds up over the miles. But still, the saddle felt very comfortable otherwise. Now I just have to find a happy medium of saddle tilt. I also need a better bike fit. For the first time ever I used a plumb line to adjust saddle position fore and aft, and was surprised to find just how far my knee is forward of KOPS. The seatpost is a zero setback, came with the bike, and with the AS saddle slid all the way back (with a cm left to spare), I'm about 1.5" in front of KOPS. I do understand that KOPS is just a starting point, but apparently I've been riding well forward of KOPS. So I'll have to dial in a better fit, and THEN work on the saddle. Interestingly, it's possible that even a post with a 25mm setback will not be sufficient to get me at KOPS. I have a 2 bolt Velo Orange 30mm setback post arriving tomorrow, so I'll start there. I never thought of myself as having a long femur. Hmmm...I probably don't, but I'm pretty sure that I shouldn't be riding on a zero setback post, so I'll start there.

Kedosto

I replied in your thread looking for a setback post 25mm+ about the VO. It's not a true 30mm because (as you've already noted) the setback and tilt are combined. Sure, you can set the seat all the way back, but the nose will be pointed at the sky. The truth is that when the saddle is near level the setback is about 20mm or so. I get the same fit with the VO as I do with another seatpost with a true 20mm setback, so there it is.

I would say to keep working on the tilt, but another possibility is your stem (reach). Sometimes if you're reach to the bars is just a tiny bit short it can make you slide forward. Counterintuitive for sure, but just for giggles, you might wanna try a longer stem by about 1cm. Sometimes having a longer reach will help flatten your back and stop you from sliding forward. A longer reach will also reduce the need to tilt the saddle so far up as well.

-Kedosto

Sojodave

You definitely should get a bike fit. If you have to have a 30mm setback, maybe your bike frame doesn't fit you. I believe that on the Selle Anatomica website it warns not getting more than a 15mm setback because it could bend the rails.

Wattsup

I can see how a little longer reach might help. My thinking is to get the saddle setback correct first. Right now I'm using a 0 setback post. a 20-25mm setback post will give me a couple of extra cm reach right there. Then I'll probably play with the tilt. Additionally, It occurs to me that, although SA claims no break-in period is required, these saddles probably do fit a bit differently once you've softened up that leather a bit. Time will tell.

Wattsup

I could definitely use some expert fit advice. Regarding the SA website, I read through it front to back the other day, but saw no mention of seatpost setback. They do recommend not sliding the saddle to either extreme, front or back, as that could bend the rails. I can't see how the seatpost setback would be relevant though.

Road Fan

Wattsup, I agree with you. If you need or want to try more setback than you can get with a straight seatpost, there is no reason not to try a seatpost with some setback, even up to 35 mm (like the Nitto S-84).

Wanting to try more setback does not mean you need a new frame.

Remember that if you add a lot of setback, you should think about whether the small increase in leg reach means you should lower the saddle. If you're a math guy, you can work out the trigonometry and calculate how much lower the saddle should be to keep the same leg extension..

Wattsup

Well, I actually think the saddle has to go higher, together with the increased setback. I had it a little low I think. Here's the thing though. Using a plum line, I estimate that a 25mm setback post, together with the post adjustment, will JUST about bring my knee back to KOPS. That's with the saddle slammed back as far as it will go, (except for a 1/4" buffer to avoid bending the rail.) I'm just barely 6ft tall, riding a 57cm frame, a Salsa Vaya. I never thought of myself as having long femurs. I'm also not showing a heck of a lot of seatpost either. I can't understand how a 57 frame could be small for me.

Could the reach be a factor as Kedosto suggested a few posts earlier? In other words, if I were to be leaning further forward (longer stem,) would the tilting of my hips forward change my knee position in relation to the pedal?

fietsbob

Basically buy one,, try it.... done that yet?
ass to saddle beats opinions every time..

Wattsup

A seatpost? Yes, ordered it today, will have it on Friday. The Nitto S83.

https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...2&category=618

Road Fan

Wattsup,

The S-83 is excellent quality. Universal says 24 mm setback, but there's no standard for measurement. The S-84 has about 35 mm setback. Just try it and see what you need. I agree with Fiets, just try something. If as you suspected you need more setback than the S-83 affords, you should be able to flip it - it's a known good piece.

You have a mix of fit/contact point adjustment issues. Did you by chance write down your saddle location parameters before making any changes? When you install all your new hardware, I would try not to throw out all the bathwater, there might be a baby in there but you don't know where. In other words you don't know which current fit parameters are correct for you. You can see which ones do not match Internet conventions, but the Internet does not know your correct fit. Based on your post #185 , you are aware of the potentially knotty interaction between fit parameters and riding position. I would really try hard to set it to your original positioning, and make small changes, one variable at a time. Or start with Selle's initial positioning guidelines and slowly work it up to a state of comfort. Keep notes, because you might have to go backwards. I found that once I have it good for say, 15 miles, if I go 20 miles it might go bad - more tweaking. Eventually I got it good for 60 which is what I needed, but then next season it was not so good.

Wattsup

I'm hoping the S83 is all I need. That S-84 is CrMo...It's a beast! I'd probably go composite if I need more setback...there seems to be greater selection. And if this S-83 doesn't work for me, before spending any more money on components, I think I'd go get an expert fit. My reluctance to spending good money on the fit is that my situation might not be the usual case. I'm riding a Salsa Vaya, (huge stack, low reach) together with a Jones h Bar (even less reach) and a mountain groupset and platform pedals..not clipped in. The guy whom I bought the bike from had it set up this way....uncut steerer too, with the collar at the very top! I like the Jones bar, but at some point I might lower it. I might make several changes, so there's the basis of my reluctance to pay for a fit now.

Road Fan

The S-84 is not massive, if that's what you mean by "beast" it's certainly not drainpipe. I have a few of them. The top is aluminum, and the shaft is CrMo, with very thin walls, way less than 1 mm. The S-83 is also not as light as a Thomson Masterpiece, which is lighter than some carbon posts. If you find some composite posts with more setback than the S-83, I'd like to know.

I would recommend getting a fit, but I don't know how to pick a good fitter. The fit systems put together by Specialized seem to be pretty good.

But you can go it alone if you're careful. If you're able to revise saddle positioning to relieve knee and perineal pain, for me that's the basis of staying safe.

CABELLOJO

Love the look of selle. Ride pretty good also.

Kedosto

Indirectly, yes. The slight forward rotation of the hips and flattened back causes you to rest on a more anterior portion of the sit bones and you'll scoot back on the saddle slightly in order to position the sit bones on the sweet spot of the saddle. The scoot back is what moves your knee back in relation to the pedal spindle. The slight forward hip rotation also (usually) means you'll probably want to take a bit of the tilt out of the saddle too, but not all of it. The saddle design requires a bit of tilt to function as a hammock.

Reach and saddle set back are really only indirectly associated. KOPS (as a starting point) has nothing to do with reach and everything to do with saddle setback and more specifically, your sit bone position on the saddle. In my case, I can use a zero setback post only on frames with 70-71 degree seat tube angles. For 72 degree seat tubes I go with about 12-15mm setback and with 73+ degree I go with 20-25mm setback. The set back has everything to do with my femur length and desired KOPS position (which for me is slightly behind spindle). As the seat tubes get more steep I need more setback to keep my femur length (knee) oriented to the pedal spindle at the distance I like.

Stem length comes in to play only to the extent that the length of the stem causes my upper body to either work with my saddle position, or against it. When my stem is too short my upper body wants to sit more upright. My back curves and hips roll back (more vertical) and as a result I tend to slide forward off the sweet spot of the saddle and onto the narrow section. The shorter my stem, the more I need to raise the tilt of the saddle to keep from sliding off the front. A longer stem creates a better reach which flattens my back, rolls my hips forward appropriately and scoots my butt back into the saddle. When the stem gets too long I stretch too far forward, roll my hips too far forward (pressure on the perineum) and my butt wants to slide off the back of the saddle.

Given the unusually short reach of the Vaya (considering the reach vs frame size), and the seat tube angle (72.5 for the 57cm), I'm wondering why they would spec a zero setback post. I'm not so sure the Vaya is the best choice for those Jones bars. The bars put your hands pretty much even with the steer tube. Frames deigned for flat bars have longer reach than usual, not shorter. In the end, you might find the only way you can use the SA is with the nose way way up.

-Kedosto

Wattsup

Thanks for the comprehensive explanation! Regarding the Vaya and the zero setback post, I bought the bike used...that's how the previous owner had it set it up...he built it from a frame kit. The complete bike as supplied by Salsa had a 25mm setback post. I had been looking for a Vaya Ti, and when this one (a 2016 Ti) turned up used, I jumped on it. I had expected to convert it to drop bar, but once I tried the Jones Bar and the stability it brings on the trails, I decided to keep it. I do in fact find my back rounding, so first I'll see how the setback post works out, and if I need more reach, I'll try a slightly longer stem.

Wattsup

So I got my new Nitto setback post today (beautifully finished!), installed it with the new SA saddle and went for a ride. I do this trail near my house, 30 miles, about 70% gravel, the rest asphalt. First 15 miles felt pretty good. I thought I had gotten the saddle tilt pretty much correct. Last ten miles was a different story...not so good. Last five miles felt like I was sitting on a slab of marble. Now, I should add that I rode very hard the first 15 miles, and I can feel that pedaling hard takes some pressure off the saddle. The second half of the ride I was generally more fatigued, and I was resting on the saddle more rather than pushing off the pedals hard, if that makes sense. I think also I was sliding forward a bit on the last ten miles, putting pressure on the perineum, perhaps due to that fatigue.

So I don't know what to think. The last five miles was brutal. Even the five before that weren't so great.

Kedosto

Wattsup

I've removed the SA and am sending it back. I'm still within the 30 day trial. I had it covered the entire time, so it looks new. Here's the deal. Yes, I agree with you, my stance is more upright than most, at least when I'm on one section of the Jones Bar. Sometimes however I grasp the most forward part, and when doing that, my stance is as if I were "riding on the hoods."

I've come to suspect that the problem I'm having with the SA saddle is that it's too soft, too pliant, in part because of the split down the middle, the carve out. When I first get on the saddle, it feels like I'm riding on a cloud. I can hardly feel rough-ish spots on the gravel. But then after a while, I start to feel pressure, especially in the perineum area. My sit bones I think are just sinking in to the saddle.

In contrast...today I installed my old Cambrium, the regular one, not the one with the carve out that I've been using recently. When I sit on that saddle, I can clearly feel my sitbones perched on the surface. It's quite defined, and I have no pressure on the sensitive in-between area. The saddle feels firm though.

I did fix the fit issue. The 23mm setback on the Nitto helped, and I also slammed the Cambrium all the way back, right up against the stop. Hopefully the rail won't bend. I'm slightly behind KOPS now, about a cm or so, which feels comfortable. We'll see how the next ride goes.

zarbog

Wattsup, being curious about your fit and search for a saddle, I took a comparison between your Salsa 57cm and my Giant Roam large. Your Salsa frame was designed for drop bars. Mine flat bars. Both bikes have Jones H bars on them. My Jones bars solved my hand and wrist problem but created a saddle problem because they made me sit up more. Any how, here is a spec comparison between the bikes.
Salsa Giant
Reach 372mm Reach 419mm
Top Tube 570mm Top Tube 609
Stem 90mm Stem 109 mm
seatube offset 25mm seat tube offset 25mm

I am 5 foot 10
When I ordered my Jones bars, I was advised to install a shorter stem to put the Jones hand position at the same place as the original flat bars, I did not. I just used the original stem, had the Jones bars very slightly tilted down at the ends. They are almost level with my saddle, just a bit higher. Put 500 km on them and could not get more than a 2 hour ride sitting on a serfa saddle. I actually was bruising the area in front of my sit bones. Almost bought a fat saddle two weeks ago, but opted to reinstall the original bars, cut them down a bit narrower and put on Ergon grips with the built in bar ends. This got me back into the sitting position the bike is designed for, my hands and wrist seem okay with using the bar ends. Currently sitting on the stock, fat padded seat while my rear end heals up a bit. I will be getting a saddle as wide as the stock one, instead of the narrower racy looking Serfa. So there is my reasong for following the SA saddle thread.
My point is, your frame geometry is designed for drop bars, I think your fit problem comes from the Jones bars. They are designed to shift your weight onto your sit bones. Combine that with the frame geometry and it is possible that you might be in a cruiser bike position with the short top tube, reach and swept back bars.

Don't hate me, I am new at this, just trying to help.

Wattsup

No hate here....Today I rode 30 miles on gravel and the butt felt fine at the end of the ride. Before the ride I swapped out the SA saddle for a Cambrium 17 (regular, not carved) I had around. I had been using a Cambrium 17 Carved, and I found that uncomfortable. I've since changed the fit with the setback post, so maybe that's why the Cambrium feels better now. No perineum pressure at all, unlike the SA saddle. Yes, the Vaya was designed with drop bars in mind. Do a little googling though and you'll see plenty dropbar-Jones bar conversions. Google "Fargo Jones bar."

I like this Jones bar. I like all of the hand positions, and I like the stability the wider position gives when necessary. Two things are on my to-do list: try the wider Cambrium 19 (Thank you REI! ) and try a longer stem. I'm using a 90mm now, and I have a 110 gathering dust that I might install. My guess is that 100mm will be best. I can also play with the angle a bit.

mars2020

Just ordered a Selle after reading this post. Do you apply their Saddle Sauce on top of the saddle too or just the bottom and the edge?
thanks.

DrIsotope

Just the bottom and edges.

...and after having to pull off the freeway to put a bag on my saddle because out of nowhere it started raining, I pre-ordered myself an R2 for my go-anywhere bike.