NYC: Mayor Bloomberg Proposes a Fee for Driving into Manhattan.
04-22-07, 07:31 PM
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NYC: Mayor Bloomberg Proposes a Fee for Driving into Manhattan.
Pretty interesting that someone in the political scene would actually call out cars as a main source of pollution. Hopefully this could make the streets more bicycling friendly and get more people out there on two wheels.
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/ny...hp&oref=slogin
Here is the article from the NY Times if you have to log in or something:
Saying that he would not spend his final term in office “pretending that all is fine,” Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg made a series of Earth Day proposals this afternoon to improve the environment of New York City, including charging a new congestion fee to drivers who come into parts of Manhattan during peak hours during weekdays.
The $8 congestion fee was one of 127 initiatives included in a sweeping plan by the mayor to help the city of currently 8.2 million people cope with an expected surge in population that he said is sure to put a strain on its transportation, housing and energy systems.
“Let’s face up to the fact that our population growth is putting our city on a collision course with the environment, which itself is growing more unstable and uncertain,” the mayor said.
A key objective is to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 30 percent by 2030, by which time the population is projected to grow by at least a million people, he said.
The proposal that is sure to attract the most attention, and possibly objections, is one to impose the $8 fee on car drivers, and $21 for truck operators, to drive in Manhattan south of 86th Street.
The mayor said congestion on the city’s streets is the source of many of the city’s health, environmental and economic problems.
“We can’t talk about reducing air pollution without talking about congestion,” he said.
“As our city continues to grow, the cost of congestion to our health, to our economy and to our environment are only going to get worse,” he said. “The question is not whether we want to pay, but how do we want to pay — with an increased asthma rate, with more greenhouse gases, with more wasted time, lost business and higher prices. Or do we charge a modest fee to encourage more people to take mass transit.”
The fee the mayor is proposing would only be imposed during the week, between 6 a.m. and 6 p.m.. And motorists driving the major highways along Manhattan’s east and west sides would not be fined, so it would be possible to go from Brooklyn to Harlem along Franklin D. Roosevelt Drive without entering the zone.
The fee would be deducted from the tolls commuters already pay to come into Manhattan via the bridges or tunnels.
There would be no toll booths, just a network of cameras that would capture license plate numbers and either charge a driver’s existing commuter account or generate a bill to be paid each time.
The mayor said that about half of the fees would be paid by New York City residents — and the other half by commuters from surrounding areas. But he pledged not to begin imposing the fee for at least a year, until city officials can upgrade mass transit service into parts of New York City that are currently not well served by the city’s subway or train system.
Revenue from the fees, he said, would generate about $400 million in its first year, money that would be used to make improvements in the transit system.
The proposed fee, known as congestion pricing, is applauded by environmentalists and alternative transportation groups. But there is little doubt that much of the package of proposals will face stiff opposition from local politicians and trucking companies, as well as from the state legislators who will decide whether to approve many aspects of it.
State Assemblyman Richard Brodsky said he opposed the mayor’s proposal for a congestion fee because it is a regressive tax.
“The middle class and the poor will not be able to pay these fees and the rich will,” said Mr. Brodsky, who is chairman of a committee that oversees the Metropolitan Transportation Authority. “There are a lot of courageous things in the mayor’s package, but this one is not very well thought out.”
Clayton Boyce, a spokesman for the American Trucking Association, a national industry group, told The Associated Press, “It will be a real problem for operations for trucking companies and shippers, including all the retailers in Manhattan, which is substantial.”
“And all the people who get FedEx and UPS deliveries will have problems and will bear extra expense, so we definitely see problems with it,” he said.
The mayor, who has become known for his proposals that affect residents’ lifestyles, including a ban on smoking and a ban on the use of trans fats in the city’s restaurants, at one point in the speech joked about how far his own proposals have gone in forcing people to change the way they live.
“Banning trans fats is not enough. We also have to ban all desserts and sweets,” he said, before quickly letting on to his audience that he was only joking.
The mayor spoke, appropriately enough, at the American Museum of Natural History, in the Milstein Hall of Ocean Life, under an imposing model of a 94-foot blue whale suspended from the ceiling— the largest model of a blue whale in existence.
Mr. Bloomberg is a mayor who has in many ways practiced what he preached today, riding the subway to work almost everyday. He also pointed out that the museum’s president, Ellen V. Futter, walks to her job everyday.
The mayor’s congestion tax is patterned after one imposed by London in 2003, where government officials say it has significantly reduced congestion. During Mr. Bloomberg’s speech, he played a videotaped message from Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain, who congratulated the mayor on his leadership.
Mr. Bloomberg talked about how cities and individuals have to take action, even when those actions may not be initially popular with others.
Like with the smoking ban, he said, “we did it, and whole countries followed us.”
“We’re not interested in preaching to others,” he said. “We’re doing what’s best for our city. And when we reap the benefits, perhaps others will continue to follow.”
Discuss.
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/ny...hp&oref=slogin
Here is the article from the NY Times if you have to log in or something:
Saying that he would not spend his final term in office “pretending that all is fine,” Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg made a series of Earth Day proposals this afternoon to improve the environment of New York City, including charging a new congestion fee to drivers who come into parts of Manhattan during peak hours during weekdays.
The $8 congestion fee was one of 127 initiatives included in a sweeping plan by the mayor to help the city of currently 8.2 million people cope with an expected surge in population that he said is sure to put a strain on its transportation, housing and energy systems.
“Let’s face up to the fact that our population growth is putting our city on a collision course with the environment, which itself is growing more unstable and uncertain,” the mayor said.
A key objective is to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 30 percent by 2030, by which time the population is projected to grow by at least a million people, he said.
The proposal that is sure to attract the most attention, and possibly objections, is one to impose the $8 fee on car drivers, and $21 for truck operators, to drive in Manhattan south of 86th Street.
The mayor said congestion on the city’s streets is the source of many of the city’s health, environmental and economic problems.
“We can’t talk about reducing air pollution without talking about congestion,” he said.
“As our city continues to grow, the cost of congestion to our health, to our economy and to our environment are only going to get worse,” he said. “The question is not whether we want to pay, but how do we want to pay — with an increased asthma rate, with more greenhouse gases, with more wasted time, lost business and higher prices. Or do we charge a modest fee to encourage more people to take mass transit.”
The fee the mayor is proposing would only be imposed during the week, between 6 a.m. and 6 p.m.. And motorists driving the major highways along Manhattan’s east and west sides would not be fined, so it would be possible to go from Brooklyn to Harlem along Franklin D. Roosevelt Drive without entering the zone.
The fee would be deducted from the tolls commuters already pay to come into Manhattan via the bridges or tunnels.
There would be no toll booths, just a network of cameras that would capture license plate numbers and either charge a driver’s existing commuter account or generate a bill to be paid each time.
The mayor said that about half of the fees would be paid by New York City residents — and the other half by commuters from surrounding areas. But he pledged not to begin imposing the fee for at least a year, until city officials can upgrade mass transit service into parts of New York City that are currently not well served by the city’s subway or train system.
Revenue from the fees, he said, would generate about $400 million in its first year, money that would be used to make improvements in the transit system.
The proposed fee, known as congestion pricing, is applauded by environmentalists and alternative transportation groups. But there is little doubt that much of the package of proposals will face stiff opposition from local politicians and trucking companies, as well as from the state legislators who will decide whether to approve many aspects of it.
State Assemblyman Richard Brodsky said he opposed the mayor’s proposal for a congestion fee because it is a regressive tax.
“The middle class and the poor will not be able to pay these fees and the rich will,” said Mr. Brodsky, who is chairman of a committee that oversees the Metropolitan Transportation Authority. “There are a lot of courageous things in the mayor’s package, but this one is not very well thought out.”
Clayton Boyce, a spokesman for the American Trucking Association, a national industry group, told The Associated Press, “It will be a real problem for operations for trucking companies and shippers, including all the retailers in Manhattan, which is substantial.”
“And all the people who get FedEx and UPS deliveries will have problems and will bear extra expense, so we definitely see problems with it,” he said.
The mayor, who has become known for his proposals that affect residents’ lifestyles, including a ban on smoking and a ban on the use of trans fats in the city’s restaurants, at one point in the speech joked about how far his own proposals have gone in forcing people to change the way they live.
“Banning trans fats is not enough. We also have to ban all desserts and sweets,” he said, before quickly letting on to his audience that he was only joking.
The mayor spoke, appropriately enough, at the American Museum of Natural History, in the Milstein Hall of Ocean Life, under an imposing model of a 94-foot blue whale suspended from the ceiling— the largest model of a blue whale in existence.
Mr. Bloomberg is a mayor who has in many ways practiced what he preached today, riding the subway to work almost everyday. He also pointed out that the museum’s president, Ellen V. Futter, walks to her job everyday.
The mayor’s congestion tax is patterned after one imposed by London in 2003, where government officials say it has significantly reduced congestion. During Mr. Bloomberg’s speech, he played a videotaped message from Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain, who congratulated the mayor on his leadership.
Mr. Bloomberg talked about how cities and individuals have to take action, even when those actions may not be initially popular with others.
Like with the smoking ban, he said, “we did it, and whole countries followed us.”
“We’re not interested in preaching to others,” he said. “We’re doing what’s best for our city. And when we reap the benefits, perhaps others will continue to follow.”
Discuss.
04-22-07, 07:39 PM
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One thought is that a critic of the proposal is saying that the poor and middle class won't be able to pay for the fee but the rich will.
What a horrible day it will be when we U.S. citizens may have to actually think about our own way of transportation instead of just playing follow the leader and driving everywhere.
The horror.
Seems this could open up a niche for bicycle based cargo transport / package delivery. It's green and would cause much less wear on the streets.
What a horrible day it will be when we U.S. citizens may have to actually think about our own way of transportation instead of just playing follow the leader and driving everywhere.
The horror.
Seems this could open up a niche for bicycle based cargo transport / package delivery. It's green and would cause much less wear on the streets.
04-22-07, 10:09 PM
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I generally support the idea, but some posters on the Commuting forum pointed out that there would need to be some major work done to ensure the safety of certain people in the subway system before it would be feasible. I agree with that, too.
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04-24-07, 02:44 PM
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Two-tier transportation... gotta love it! 
The problem with this plan is that it's obviously a money argument. Nothing more. What it should be about is the type of vehicle and the mileage on said vehicle. That would encourage people to switch to better vehicles for the environment and also to use public transportation more when going to major cities.
1 - If you drive anything that gets less than 20MPG in the city, you're taxed higher. This is to encourage small cars in the city instead of big ones. And the bigger they are... the higher the rate.
2 - Mileage also needs to be considered. Because I bike a lot, my 6-cyl luxury car has very low mileage on it. 40,000 km in 4 years. And I travel from Montreal to Toronto about 3 times a year as well. Yes... my 6-cyl luxury car only gets 17MPG in the city and I deserve to get taxed for it when I do take it downtown. But the surtax should also consider that I don't do it on a daily bassis and that overall, I pollute less than a Prius that does 80,000km/year.
NYC's idea is nothing more than a tax grab disguised as environmentally consious. On the surface it appears to be just fine but when you dig down you notice that they really aren't going after the real polluters at all.
The problem with this plan is that it's obviously a money argument. Nothing more. What it should be about is the type of vehicle and the mileage on said vehicle. That would encourage people to switch to better vehicles for the environment and also to use public transportation more when going to major cities.
1 - If you drive anything that gets less than 20MPG in the city, you're taxed higher. This is to encourage small cars in the city instead of big ones. And the bigger they are... the higher the rate.
2 - Mileage also needs to be considered. Because I bike a lot, my 6-cyl luxury car has very low mileage on it. 40,000 km in 4 years. And I travel from Montreal to Toronto about 3 times a year as well. Yes... my 6-cyl luxury car only gets 17MPG in the city and I deserve to get taxed for it when I do take it downtown. But the surtax should also consider that I don't do it on a daily bassis and that overall, I pollute less than a Prius that does 80,000km/year.
NYC's idea is nothing more than a tax grab disguised as environmentally consious. On the surface it appears to be just fine but when you dig down you notice that they really aren't going after the real polluters at all.
04-24-07, 03:33 PM
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Tax grab - True
Poor and maybe middle class drivers cannot afford auto insurance in NYC.
In general you should avoid driving in Manhattan during the day, it is just not worth it.
Poor and maybe middle class drivers cannot afford auto insurance in NYC.
In general you should avoid driving in Manhattan during the day, it is just not worth it.
04-24-07, 03:37 PM
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Unfortunately, the poor and middle class can't afford a helicopter either. If there are alternate methods of transportation - there is no reason you should have the right to use a car.
04-24-07, 03:38 PM
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^^^
No, the tax is to reduce congestion, not to explicitly be environmentally conscious. The fact that I drive a Prius many miles and you drive a luxury car only a few miles doesn't mean anything. Both take up about as much space on the road. Besides, if I drive every day, and you drive once a month, then the tax naturally takes this into account by charging me $240/month and you only $8/month.
There is also an economic component. Congested streets means that deliveries cannot be made on time and appointments cannot be kept. It means more road repair. donnamb is right, changes and improvements to the public transportation infrastructure have to be made in concert, but it seems that the Mayor has thought this through somewhat as well. Overall, this is probably a good thing.
No, the tax is to reduce congestion, not to explicitly be environmentally conscious. The fact that I drive a Prius many miles and you drive a luxury car only a few miles doesn't mean anything. Both take up about as much space on the road. Besides, if I drive every day, and you drive once a month, then the tax naturally takes this into account by charging me $240/month and you only $8/month.
There is also an economic component. Congested streets means that deliveries cannot be made on time and appointments cannot be kept. It means more road repair. donnamb is right, changes and improvements to the public transportation infrastructure have to be made in concert, but it seems that the Mayor has thought this through somewhat as well. Overall, this is probably a good thing.
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04-24-07, 03:42 PM
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Everyone will have to get vouchers for gas in the not so distant future. They will be allocated based on a priority system, which of course will result in a black market and corruption, but it will encourage efficiency and reduce some unnecessary convenience driving. It's inevitable.
04-24-07, 04:15 PM
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Seems stupid to tax the truckers. It isn't like they can just take their cargo onto the subway.
04-24-07, 04:41 PM
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Seems stupid to tax the truckers. It isn't like they can just take their cargo onto the subway.
04-24-07, 05:02 PM
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It's only a 'proposal.'
Heck we have passed actual laws that have yet to be implemented/enforced! Remember a law was passed that sometime in the early 80s ALL U.S. highways distances/speed limits would be posted in metric (Kilometers Per Hour) . . . . just like 90% of the rest of world.
What happened to that 'law'? Only highway that is posted that way is I-19 running from Tucson to the border with Mexico (Nogales, AZ).
London already has a fee like Bloomberg proposes. Also a rumor that our Interstates will soon have tollbooths and the US Mail is being privatized (that's already fact with subcontractors
delivering some mail routes in FL, NJ, NV and AZ).
Another idea: car's with even license plates can drive into town one day, odd numbered license plates
the next day. That will encourage car pooling and other modes of transport.
Innovation is the key!
Heck we have passed actual laws that have yet to be implemented/enforced! Remember a law was passed that sometime in the early 80s ALL U.S. highways distances/speed limits would be posted in metric (Kilometers Per Hour) . . . . just like 90% of the rest of world.
What happened to that 'law'? Only highway that is posted that way is I-19 running from Tucson to the border with Mexico (Nogales, AZ).
London already has a fee like Bloomberg proposes. Also a rumor that our Interstates will soon have tollbooths and the US Mail is being privatized (that's already fact with subcontractors
delivering some mail routes in FL, NJ, NV and AZ).
Another idea: car's with even license plates can drive into town one day, odd numbered license plates
the next day. That will encourage car pooling and other modes of transport.
Innovation is the key!
04-24-07, 05:03 PM
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I think that congestion pricing in NYC is a good idea, and I applaud mayor Bloomberg for having the guts and sense to propose the idea.
Having said that, I think the mayor doesn't really expect congestion pricing to be approved. Its just political strategizing, and he has nothing to lose. NYC will end up with some watered down plan and half-assed measures, like express bus lanes.
Having said that, I think the mayor doesn't really expect congestion pricing to be approved. Its just political strategizing, and he has nothing to lose. NYC will end up with some watered down plan and half-assed measures, like express bus lanes.
04-24-07, 05:14 PM
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I thought nobody in NYC drove because there was to much traffic?
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04-24-07, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
^^^
No, the tax is to reduce congestion, not to explicitly be environmentally conscious. The fact that I drive a Prius many miles and you drive a luxury car only a few miles doesn't mean anything. Both take up about as much space on the road.
No, the tax is to reduce congestion, not to explicitly be environmentally conscious. The fact that I drive a Prius many miles and you drive a luxury car only a few miles doesn't mean anything. Both take up about as much space on the road.
So my original "usage" argument still stands. Not only do i pollute less, i use up less public space.
04-24-07, 06:23 PM
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I think the people of Manhattan will be happy with this, once they get used to it. If effective, it will make the island a lot nicer. $8 may not be high enough.
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04-24-07, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by skinny
Everyone will have to get vouchers for gas in the not so distant future. They will be allocated based on a priority system, which of course will result in a black market and corruption, but it will encourage efficiency and reduce some unnecessary convenience driving. It's inevitable.
How does something that creates a black market promote efficiency?
04-24-07, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by zonatandem
It's only a 'proposal.'
Another idea: car's with even license plates can drive into town one day, odd numbered license plates
the next day. That will encourage car pooling and other modes of transport.
Innovation is the key!
Another idea: car's with even license plates can drive into town one day, odd numbered license plates
the next day. That will encourage car pooling and other modes of transport.
Innovation is the key!
04-24-07, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by wethepeople
I thought nobody in NYC drove because there was to much traffic?
04-24-07, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Zeuser
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
No, the tax is to reduce congestion, not to explicitly be environmentally conscious. The fact that I drive a Prius many miles and you drive a luxury car only a few miles doesn't mean anything. Both take up about as much space on the road.
So my original "usage" argument still stands. Not only do i pollute less, i use up less public space.
Having a nice new car that you "feel good" about driving is probably not the most effective way to wean yourself from that sort of lifestyle.
04-24-07, 11:12 PM
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It's a big-government tax-grab from Mayor Mike Bloomberg. He wants to create some HUGE government authority with millions of dollars of overhead intended to administer the $2.00 and $8.00 taxes. Silly.
04-25-07, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Blue Jays
It's a big-government tax-grab from Mayor Mike Bloomberg. He wants to create some HUGE government authority with millions of dollars of overhead intended to administer the $2.00 and $8.00 taxes. Silly.
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04-25-07, 12:09 AM
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Provide incentives to those who telecommute, for example. That would cut congestion with no increase in taxes and no changes needed to the current transporation infrastructure.
Mayor Mike Bloomberg has never met a tax increase he hasn't embraced. This plan will create a new bureaucracy, it will mandate a bunch of commissioners earning $150,000 a year to manage, complex computer and camera systems, and a whole parade of city workers to process the $2.00 and $6.00 taxes.
Mayor Mike Bloomberg has never met a tax increase he hasn't embraced. This plan will create a new bureaucracy, it will mandate a bunch of commissioners earning $150,000 a year to manage, complex computer and camera systems, and a whole parade of city workers to process the $2.00 and $6.00 taxes.
04-25-07, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by wethepeople
I thought nobody in NYC drove because there was to much traffic?
Well that's an oxymoron.
04-25-07, 11:16 AM
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Provide incentives to those who telecommute, for example. That would cut congestion with no increase in taxes and no changes needed to the current transporation infrastructure.
I have no problem with a new authority being created to administer these payments, provided the congestion fees have the effect of reducing congestion. (Besides, a new authority to administer the system will mean more jobs in the city, paid for primarily by the fees paid by people from outside the city.)