Which derailleur for touring and bike camping?
10-10-23, 02:28 PM
#26
Senior Member
I have Tubus cargo steel rear rack, and Tubus Lowrider front, which I took off and replaced with Blackburn Bootlegger steel rack, they came on with the bike when new. Those racks are stock like I said, they came with the bike, the rear are not lowrider racks, the panniers set about mid way, not too high but no low either like a lowrider rack. I do pack with the heaviest stuff on the bottom of the panniers, and I pack with equal amount of weight in both panniers to balance the load. Even if the pannier rack is too high, those racks is what came with the bike, so I'm using what they provided. And I did try changing the weight inside the panniers by putting the lightest stuff on the bottom, which is totally against the internet wisdom, but doing that didn't seem to change a thing either for better or worse.
I'm 172 pounds average, without me being on the bike, my loaded weight, with water, and bike weight was 60.1 pounds on the rear wheel, and 31,8 pounds on the front, (all I had on the front was a handlebar bag and a 1 pound sleeping bag), that weight set up was my last attempt at trying to shift the weight around to improve the shimmy, that weight positioning had the least amount of frame shimmy no matter what percentage of the load went where. The bike shop guy rode my bike like that, he weighed between 50 to 60 pounds more than me, he claimed that rear of the bike was moving a foot in either direction, I think he was exaggerating that amount of movement, but whatever the amount actually was it scared him enough to warrant the bike as unsafe, and he feared that eventually a weld would fail someplace. When I followed what several sites on the internet suggested doing, that was 70% on the front and 30 on the rear the shimmy was horrible, and started at around 8 to 10 mph, it wasn't until the load got to 90% in the rear did it not shimmy until the speed got up to around 13 to 15 mph. When the load was mostly on the front the whole front end would violently shake from the fork and headtube to the rear, I could see that happening looking down. Originally I thought it was the wheels, so I had the wheels readjusted, but that did nothing. Now with the weight in the rear the back end shakes violently and spreads to the front.
The only method I have for weighing the bike was a bathroom scale, I put the rear tire on the scale, then the front tire, that's how those numbers came about.
Note too that this shimmy goes away without a load and just me on the bike, so it is load dependent. Before I bought the bike in 2019 I contacted Haro and told them how much of a load I would be carrying, even overstated the load amount just to see what they would say, and they assured me that it could handle that load and they have people doing it all the time including the guy I spoke to at Haro! But that Haro guy had a previous model, not the model that I got. When I got confirmation from the bike dealer that the bike was unsafe under load I contacted Haro and spoke to the same guy I did back in 2019, and he once again assured me that the new frame would not do that...I'll find out! Personally I have a sneaky feeling Haro knows of there being a problem with my model, because they gave me zero hassles in replacing it, they didn't even want to know the weight distribution, nor instructed me to try a different weight distribution, nothing, so that leads me to believe something went bad with those bikes in the either the metal used or the construction of the frame and they knew about it. They're probably only replacing them on a per call basis, some riders will never use the bike for loaded touring so those might never get warrantied.
I hope that answered all your questions. I did a lot of load experimentation before contacting Haro, I've been fooling with stuff since 2019 trying to find a happy combination, having the wheels readjusted, to no avail. The odd thing is that my old 85 Schwinn Le Tour Luxe with smaller diameter tubing vs the Masi, never ever shimmied no matter how fast the bike was going, and almost all the weight except for the handlebar bag was on the rear, and on that bike I was using the original aluminum pannier rack which is nowhere near as stiff as the steel rack on the Masi.
I'm 172 pounds average, without me being on the bike, my loaded weight, with water, and bike weight was 60.1 pounds on the rear wheel, and 31,8 pounds on the front, (all I had on the front was a handlebar bag and a 1 pound sleeping bag), that weight set up was my last attempt at trying to shift the weight around to improve the shimmy, that weight positioning had the least amount of frame shimmy no matter what percentage of the load went where. The bike shop guy rode my bike like that, he weighed between 50 to 60 pounds more than me, he claimed that rear of the bike was moving a foot in either direction, I think he was exaggerating that amount of movement, but whatever the amount actually was it scared him enough to warrant the bike as unsafe, and he feared that eventually a weld would fail someplace. When I followed what several sites on the internet suggested doing, that was 70% on the front and 30 on the rear the shimmy was horrible, and started at around 8 to 10 mph, it wasn't until the load got to 90% in the rear did it not shimmy until the speed got up to around 13 to 15 mph. When the load was mostly on the front the whole front end would violently shake from the fork and headtube to the rear, I could see that happening looking down. Originally I thought it was the wheels, so I had the wheels readjusted, but that did nothing. Now with the weight in the rear the back end shakes violently and spreads to the front.
The only method I have for weighing the bike was a bathroom scale, I put the rear tire on the scale, then the front tire, that's how those numbers came about.
Note too that this shimmy goes away without a load and just me on the bike, so it is load dependent. Before I bought the bike in 2019 I contacted Haro and told them how much of a load I would be carrying, even overstated the load amount just to see what they would say, and they assured me that it could handle that load and they have people doing it all the time including the guy I spoke to at Haro! But that Haro guy had a previous model, not the model that I got. When I got confirmation from the bike dealer that the bike was unsafe under load I contacted Haro and spoke to the same guy I did back in 2019, and he once again assured me that the new frame would not do that...I'll find out! Personally I have a sneaky feeling Haro knows of there being a problem with my model, because they gave me zero hassles in replacing it, they didn't even want to know the weight distribution, nor instructed me to try a different weight distribution, nothing, so that leads me to believe something went bad with those bikes in the either the metal used or the construction of the frame and they knew about it. They're probably only replacing them on a per call basis, some riders will never use the bike for loaded touring so those might never get warrantied.
I hope that answered all your questions. I did a lot of load experimentation before contacting Haro, I've been fooling with stuff since 2019 trying to find a happy combination, having the wheels readjusted, to no avail. The odd thing is that my old 85 Schwinn Le Tour Luxe with smaller diameter tubing vs the Masi, never ever shimmied no matter how fast the bike was going, and almost all the weight except for the handlebar bag was on the rear, and on that bike I was using the original aluminum pannier rack which is nowhere near as stiff as the steel rack on the Masi.
I have weighed my bike to know how much load weight there is vs the bike naked, but probably put more weight on front, low down.
I too found putting more weight in front helped the bike seem more stable, and I can say that a. more balanced load on bike (including rider, and more weight on front to even out things) means that my bike handles better. With good tires, my loaded bike can handle super well around corners, and a big part of that is because I dont have a lot of weight on front.
I guess you'll just have to get the new frame going and see how it rides, it hopefully is a lot better than the old one.
Also, have your rear panniers as close to your feet as possible, your heels, to keep the weight more forward.
Your wheels shouldnt have been an issue, but your headset could be, but Im sure the bike store dude checked that out. Again--a moot point as it was with the old frame.
let us know how new frame works out and then we can perhaps help you more. Maybe add photos with panniers on etc.
10-10-23, 02:31 PM
#27
Senior Member
Yeah, the trade-off you make for putting the load out of the way of trail obstacles is carrying much less of it.
Bikepacking generally involves packing light, so the waggles become less of an issue.
They also generally have much fatter tires, and are traveling more slowly over rougher ground, so less likely to get to a speed to induce wobbles.
In an attempt to avoid having large panniers on one of my first tours, I made the mistake of packing too much stuff too high up with bikepacking bags, and got wobbles.
Once I pushed all the weight on the front to lowrider rack, the steering got stable and calm.
Bikepacking generally involves packing light, so the waggles become less of an issue.
They also generally have much fatter tires, and are traveling more slowly over rougher ground, so less likely to get to a speed to induce wobbles.
In an attempt to avoid having large panniers on one of my first tours, I made the mistake of packing too much stuff too high up with bikepacking bags, and got wobbles.
Once I pushed all the weight on the front to lowrider rack, the steering got stable and calm.
10-10-23, 06:44 PM
#28
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NE Indiana
Posts: 8,687
Bikes: 2020 Masi Giramondo 700c; 2013 Lynskey Peloton; 1992 Giant Rincon; 1989 Dawes needs parts; 1985 Trek 660; 1985 Fuji Club; 1984 Schwinn Voyager; 1984 Miyata 612; 1977 Raleigh Competition GS
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thanks for putting that all down. At 172lbs you arent 250lbs, but anyway, all this is about your frame that was replaced. I'm a lightweight at 135 so already any frame of mine has less weight on it. Ive never done the bathroom scale front/back wheel weighing, but I can say that my tubus rear rack that has the panniers on a lower rail, as well as my tubus tara front rack that puts the weight low down, really makes a difference.
I have weighed my bike to know how much load weight there is vs the bike naked, but probably put more weight on front, low down.
I too found putting more weight in front helped the bike seem more stable, and I can say that a. more balanced load on bike (including rider, and more weight on front to even out things) means that my bike handles better. With good tires, my loaded bike can handle super well around corners, and a big part of that is because I dont have a lot of weight on front.
I guess you'll just have to get the new frame going and see how it rides, it hopefully is a lot better than the old one.
Also, have your rear panniers as close to your feet as possible, your heels, to keep the weight more forward.
Your wheels shouldnt have been an issue, but your headset could be, but Im sure the bike store dude checked that out. Again--a moot point as it was with the old frame.
let us know how new frame works out and then we can perhaps help you more. Maybe add photos with panniers on etc.
I have weighed my bike to know how much load weight there is vs the bike naked, but probably put more weight on front, low down.
I too found putting more weight in front helped the bike seem more stable, and I can say that a. more balanced load on bike (including rider, and more weight on front to even out things) means that my bike handles better. With good tires, my loaded bike can handle super well around corners, and a big part of that is because I dont have a lot of weight on front.
I guess you'll just have to get the new frame going and see how it rides, it hopefully is a lot better than the old one.
Also, have your rear panniers as close to your feet as possible, your heels, to keep the weight more forward.
Your wheels shouldnt have been an issue, but your headset could be, but Im sure the bike store dude checked that out. Again--a moot point as it was with the old frame.
let us know how new frame works out and then we can perhaps help you more. Maybe add photos with panniers on etc.
This photo shows how the 2019 bike came from the factory, but notice the fork: https://archive.harobikes.com/masi/2...ondo-700c-2019
This photo shows the 2022-23 bike and how it comes from the factory, notice the fork: https://harobikes.com/products/giramondo-700c-2022
Not sure if the new fork design is going to help, but the rest of the frame has the same dimensions even the fork rake is the same, I ride a large frame. So, looking at the numbers there is no change between the two, which does that mean my problem won't go away?
10-10-23, 07:05 PM
#29
Senior Member
I have moved the weight around quite a bit in an attempt to stop the shaking, all the various weight transfers did was, in the case of the weight up front, was to shake more violently at a slower speed around 8 mph, vs shifting it to the rear it allowed the bike to get to 12 mph before the shaking started. The best result I get is with almost all the weight on rear except for the handlebar bag and the front pannier rack with nothing on it, but by best result I mean it simply allows a slightly faster speed before it starts shaking. For some reason the 2019 Giramondo frame doesn't like weight on the front, I'm not sure how the 2023 frame will respond yet, but both frames look identical, the only thing that is different is the fork.
This photo shows how the 2019 bike came from the factory, but notice the fork: https://archive.harobikes.com/masi/2...ondo-700c-2019
This photo shows the 2022-23 bike and how it comes from the factory, notice the fork: https://harobikes.com/products/giramondo-700c-2022
Not sure if the new fork design is going to help, but the rest of the frame has the same dimensions even the fork rake is the same, I ride a large frame. So, looking at the numbers there is no change between the two, which does that mean my problem won't go away?
This photo shows how the 2019 bike came from the factory, but notice the fork: https://archive.harobikes.com/masi/2...ondo-700c-2019
This photo shows the 2022-23 bike and how it comes from the factory, notice the fork: https://harobikes.com/products/giramondo-700c-2022
Not sure if the new fork design is going to help, but the rest of the frame has the same dimensions even the fork rake is the same, I ride a large frame. So, looking at the numbers there is no change between the two, which does that mean my problem won't go away?
The store owner also would have checked out if you secretly rode into a brick wall or something and ovalized the headtube or something goofy, or drove your car with the bike on the roof into an underground parking lot and crunched the frame a bit---or whatever, you get my drift.
lowrider front racks putting a load down low and in front make the steering a bit heavier, but you adapt super fast, and I too have found my bikes to be super stable with lowriders, especially a good solid rack like the tubus.
As I mentioned, my tubus rear rack puts the panniers lower a bit, which I like also.
At 175ish lbs and who knows, maybe 40lbs of stuff on the bike (you could weigh yourself on a scale, them pick up your loaded bike and subtract diff, whatever, to know your load weight----this is totally a normal rider and load range, so the new bike should be fine.
that new fork looks like it might be sturdier, it takes the same 29x2in max tire, so similar ish.
My touring bike loaded up handles super well with 40lbs, with front panniers and handlebar bag, so maybe 25lbs on front of bike, rest on rear. In fact, it handles really really well and I have cornered with this bike faster than any other bike probably just because it is so stable and well balanced. Throw in 2in slicks and its great.
Ive ridden lots of motorcycles, raced a bit and generally am pretty noticeable of two wheeled cornering behavior, and am completely comfortable with a front end load being not light--I bring this up just to try to confirm to you that bikes can handle perfectly well with weight up front--your old frame was weird.
let us know how new frame rides. Experiment with loads, and again, I'd recommend using the Tara front rack and even the rear Cargo (mine is a Logo I think, the two layer one)
cheers
10-10-23, 08:39 PM
#30
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Bikes: 2020 Masi Giramondo 700c; 2013 Lynskey Peloton; 1992 Giant Rincon; 1989 Dawes needs parts; 1985 Trek 660; 1985 Fuji Club; 1984 Schwinn Voyager; 1984 Miyata 612; 1977 Raleigh Competition GS
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My old bike was never crashed, the bike shop store owner checked for that in the interest of protecting Haro of course, there's not even a scratch on the bike anywhere, the wheels are original and no bends, the headtube was not ovalized. The owner did install a Cane Creek Visoset(sp?) headset top that has some sort of gel or something that is supposed to dampen to prevent shimming, but it didn't work. He also retensioned the wheels to eliminate a wheel problem but that didn't work either. And he did what I did, repositioned the load to see what would happen, he had the same outcome that I had.
The tires that originally came on the bike were Kenda Drumlin 45c tires, a different bike shop said the tires were to blame, so I swapped them out for Schwalbe Almotion 38c tires, nothing changed except the ride was better.
The tires that originally came on the bike were Kenda Drumlin 45c tires, a different bike shop said the tires were to blame, so I swapped them out for Schwalbe Almotion 38c tires, nothing changed except the ride was better.
10-11-23, 07:44 AM
#31
Senior Member
ya, I just mentioned that stuff to add to the discussion, not saying these were factors in your case.
And anyway, the store guys seemed to have gone over every possibility.
You'll know in about 10 seconds that the new frame is fine.
I can't even see how rider behaviour could influence this, such as riding with a super hard grip on the bars or something to excentuate the start of a wobble.
get your bike built up and let us know how it goes, with photos of the panniers on the bike.
And anyway, the store guys seemed to have gone over every possibility.
You'll know in about 10 seconds that the new frame is fine.
I can't even see how rider behaviour could influence this, such as riding with a super hard grip on the bars or something to excentuate the start of a wobble.
get your bike built up and let us know how it goes, with photos of the panniers on the bike.
10-11-23, 08:11 AM
#32
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ya, I just mentioned that stuff to add to the discussion, not saying these were factors in your case.
And anyway, the store guys seemed to have gone over every possibility.
You'll know in about 10 seconds that the new frame is fine.
I can't even see how rider behaviour could influence this, such as riding with a super hard grip on the bars or something to excentuate the start of a wobble.
get your bike built up and let us know how it goes, with photos of the panniers on the bike.
And anyway, the store guys seemed to have gone over every possibility.
You'll know in about 10 seconds that the new frame is fine.
I can't even see how rider behaviour could influence this, such as riding with a super hard grip on the bars or something to excentuate the start of a wobble.
get your bike built up and let us know how it goes, with photos of the panniers on the bike.
I almost wish I would have bought a chrome touring replacement fork for the Schwinn instead of buying a new bike, but at the time I thought a new bike would be the better idea, now I'm having second thoughts! Needless to say, I'm a big concern as to how the new Masi will work. The Masi won't be done for a month or two as he's a one person shop and is backed up with projects, by then winter is going to be happening here so not sure when I'll be able to test it.
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10-11-23, 12:48 PM
#34
Banned
I learned at an early age not to shift gears in the middle of a climb and to select a low enough rear gear to make it up anything. I am not racing and so it doesn't matter if it takes my longer to grind my way to the top. Ideally I will be in that rear cog and on the larger chainring until I get into the grade and then switch to the smaller chainring to proceed up the grade.
I match the derailleur to the range needed for the rear cassette to have smooth shifting. I went from a long cage to medium length cage on one bike when I replaced the factory 11-42t cassette with a 11-34t one.
I match the derailleur to the range needed for the rear cassette to have smooth shifting. I went from a long cage to medium length cage on one bike when I replaced the factory 11-42t cassette with a 11-34t one.
10-11-23, 05:16 PM
#35
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10-11-23, 05:38 PM
#36
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I learned at an early age not to shift gears in the middle of a climb and to select a low enough rear gear to make it up anything. I am not racing and so it doesn't matter if it takes my longer to grind my way to the top. Ideally I will be in that rear cog and on the larger chainring until I get into the grade and then switch to the smaller chainring to proceed up the grade.
I match the derailleur to the range needed for the rear cassette to have smooth shifting. I went from a long cage to medium length cage on one bike when I replaced the factory 11-42t cassette with a 11-34t one.
I match the derailleur to the range needed for the rear cassette to have smooth shifting. I went from a long cage to medium length cage on one bike when I replaced the factory 11-42t cassette with a 11-34t one.
My shifting problems were due to the load making the frame flex which put the rear derailleur out of proper alignment and would make the derailleur ghost shift up or down.
I've been riding multi speed bikes for over 45 years including riding all over mountains in California, and including 10 years of racing in California back in the friction shifting days, I think I know how to use a derailleur, heck you probably don't even know how to use a friction shifting system...do you even know what that is? But, back in those days Suntour came out with a rear derailleur called the Superbe Tech, that thing shifts faster than any STI will as long as the shift is done spot on of course, not only that but it would shift even when climbing a grade with full torque! I still have my original 84 Trek 660 racing bike with the Superbe stuff; and I had bought a backup set of the Superbe Tech that I never used, so I put them on a 84 Fuji Club I bought at a garage sale for $40 about 10 years ago, I took off the original Suntour ARX stuff that just didn't work good. Now I'm yakking about something that has no context to this discussion!
10-12-23, 08:06 PM
#37
Senior Member
Yes, there would have been better touring bike frames from that time, but with my 2010 example, it was a clear improvement.
My Surly Troll from about 2015 or 16 is very similar to that 2010 alu bike, in that its reasonably stiff and competent with a heavy load on it. It can get a head wobble going on a bit if I have too much weight too high, but thats easy to remedy, and the tubus racks. that put the weight lower does help too.
given your riding history, you should have a good feel for how a bike rides, thats why I said that you should see in very quick order how your new frame is.
