rekmeyata

I had an issue with my 2019 Masi Giramondo 700c, something was wrong with the frame that allowed it to flex almost a foot to either side in the rear when loaded, so Haro replaced the frame and fork under warranty, and did so hassle-free which pleasantly surprised me.

They sent me the newest 2023 Giramondo frame and fork, but for some reason, it came with Microshift XCD rear derailleur which I think is a clutch design?

The front is the MS XLE derailleur.

To my question; is the MS XCD a better front derailleur than the Deore that my bike came with in 2019 for touring with loads? OR should I skip both and get a Shimano Deore XT?

I do know that when I'm under load the original rear Deore derailleur doesn't shift as well as it does with no load, not sure why that would be happening, but it could be due to the unusual amount of frame flex I was getting with the 2019 Giramondo.

And the other related question, is the MS XLE a better front derailleur than the Deore? Or should I upgrade it to Deore XT? I haven't had any issues with the original Deore, so I'm thinking that since the front isn't as critical as the rear either transfer the Deore to the new bike or leave the MS XLE on it instead.

I don't know anything about Microshift, nor do I know anything about a clutch derailleur, will a clutch derailleur work better when under load?

I want a derailleur that will last a very long time and shift good when under load.

One person I spoke to said I should use the Suntour Mountech that I took of my 1985 Schwinn Le Tour Luxe that crashed and burned, they claimed those worked better than any modern derailleur will work when the bike is under load, any thoughts on that suggestion?

Thanks for your all help.

mstateglfr 

Answered on PL...don't shift under load.
If the bike is ghost shifting, then something is out of alignment- the cable tension, the hanger, the frame...something is wonky.

Tourist in MSN

Regarding shifting under load, I am not sure if you mean shifting while pedaling hard or if you mean the bike is loaded down with heavy panniers. I think you meant this was the rear derailleur, not front..

If you mean pedaling hard, I was shifting on vintage friction shifting bikes before they became vintage, thus I never pedal hard while shifting. I also have never broken a chain, probably for that reason. Perhaps you should just anticipate your gear changes a bit better and reduce your pressure on the pedals during the shift.

If you mean loaded down with panniers, that sounds like for some reason putting downward force on the rack mounts is somehow flexing the dropout enough to cause the hanger to be out of alignment. I have never heard of that happening, but maybe it can on your bike. If you could repeatedly press down on the rack and unweight it while someone watches the dropout, hanger and rear derailleur from the rear, they might be able to see if something is moving out of place?

Strange things can happen. For several months I had a clicking noise on one of my bikes when I pedaled. Finding the cause took many hours on several occasions. I eventually found that a rear rack bolt was tight, but not quite tight enough, as I pedaled the frame flex could cause the bolt to shift within the drilled hole in the rack, causing the click. And this is on a very stiff frame bike.

If you meant you have poor shifting at the front derailleur when pedaling hard, that is normal. When you are pedaling hard, your chain is under significant tension and shifting is attempting to move the highly tensioned chain to the side. The answer, don't pedal so hard when shifting.

rekmeyata

The front is fine, it's the rear that ghosts shifts and only when loaded with camping gear, but I believe that is due to the unusually high flexing that was going on with the frame, which is why Haro sent a replacement frame/fork.

What I'm trying to find out is that the new frame and fork came with a brand new Microshift XCD rear derailleur and a new MS XLE front derailleur. So do I stick with the new Microshift derailleurs, or transfer the Deore stuff from the old bike to the new? Or upgrade just the rear to to Deore XT? Or go with a 1985 vintage Suntour Mountech derailleurs front and rear?

abdon 

A foot. Something was going a whole 12 inches in either direction so a full 24 inches of travel...

it would be hard to diagnose your problem based on your description because, no offense, your description seems a bit wonky by about a foot. On either direction.

rekmeyata

It sounded wonky to me too, but that is what the bike shop owner said, not me, but when I ride it with a load it was moving between 2 to 4 inches from side to side once the bike got past 12 mph, and got worse the faster it went, it was quite skitchy to ride coming down a grade, I had to slow the bike down. This flexing has gotten worse since I bought the bike in 2019, so something was happening to the frame that would have only gotten worse over time and probably eventually cause a weld to fail, which that had to happen with that sort of flexing.

abdon 

I still have no idea what you describe. A frame flexing 1/4" would be consider a wet noodle. And forget about it being hard to shift, it would auto shift on you.

Whatever you describe is nothing a derailleur swap would address.

For hard to shift take the chain off, inspect your derailleur, inspect cog wear, change cable and casing, and if all that fails suspect the shifter.

Assuming your technique doesn't need adjustment. You may want to ease up pressure when shifting.

Tourist in MSN

I had a terrible amount of frame flex with a Surly LHT frame, their first year of production (2004). They refused to warranty it. The bottom bracket shell was badly deformed, I had to have a mechanic cut new threads in it. Surly said that was normal. I eventfully put the frame in the recycle bin. I described my problem with that frame to a frame builder, she was only going on my description, this was after I discarded the frame. She described in great detail how the welder had their heat settings all wrong when they welded it to get a bottom bracket shell that deformed and that weak. From a standing start, if I pedaled really hard in my middle chainring, the bike would sometimes downshift to my granny gear on my triple crank. The first couple times that happened, I could not figure out what was happening, until I finally realized that when I pushed that hard on the drive side pedal, the frame flexed enough that my chainrings moved away from the seat tube where my derailleur was mounted, that caused a sudden downshift.

Maybe your frame had the same kind of problem mine had?

I think if it works with your current derailleurs, keep them. I do not know if that is 10 speed or what. And I assume both the older and newer ones use the same cassette, thus swapping derailleurs would work. I do not know if you have a triple crank or double.

I do not know if the Microshift shifters (I assume Masi used the same shifter brand as the derailleurs) would work with your older Shimano derailleurs or not.

Not sure if 1985 Suntour derailleurs would have the same cable pull per shift as your modern ones. I assume the Suntour ones were friction, not indexed.

Modern indexed rear derailleurs allow the upper jockey wheel to have some side to side play but the older friction rear derailleurs did not have that play. So, the Suntour might not shift quite as smooth, even if they do have the same cable pull.

I will be out of town for a while, so if you respond, I won't see it for a while.

Reddleman

Microshift XCD is their top of the range mountain bike groupset. XLE is the next one down. Both are compatible with Shimano mountain bike cable shifting. I wouldn’t bother spending out on replacement parts from Shimano myself. Clutches in rear derailleurs come from mountain biking and 1x setups where the extra tension is useful to keep the chain on the single front ring, but a front derailleur also does that. If you don’t like it, you can switch it off on Microshift’s rear derailleurs.

saddlesores

please, please, please, please post a video!!!

mstateglfr 

The flexing claim has to be hyperbole. A frame made out of McDonalds straws wouldnt even laterally flex 2 full feet.

...speaking of hyperbole.

rekmeyata

Dang, I can't believe a company like Surly would not warranty the frame, that's just bad business, I had an Orbea scandium bike that had a crack coming from the top of the headtube radiation down about 1/4 of inch from the headset when I noticed it, 8 months into owning it since it was new, they wouldn't warranty it either because the deemed it as fatigue! So I will never buy another Orbea, and I'm glad I didn't get a Surly because I was thinking hard about that one.

Not sure about the bottom bracket thing you mentioned, the crankset and BB was all installed when I bought the original bike, I can't see anything on the outside that would indicate something is amiss. I do know that the bike flex was getting worse over time, originally it only flexed maybe an inch at the most, but the last time I went out it had at least doubled and probably closer to tripled.

The old bike came with bar end Microshift shifters, which I may upgrade to DA bar ends; of if I go with the old Suntour Mountech friction shifters I would have to get a set of Dia Compe bar end shifters that are friction compatible. Depending on what I find out here and at the bike shop will depend on what I do. The bike shop guy is definitely old school, he'll probably recommend the Suntour and Dia Compe shifters, so I'm fielding the question here for another view point.

L134 

This is sounding more like a speed wobble or high speed shimmy. There are multiple theories about them. Since yours are happening with a heavy load, I think you need to consider how you are loading the bike and just get more practice riding a loaded bike.

rekmeyata

I've been dealing with this since 2019 with the Masi, I have done all sorts of different weight distribution on the front and rear. I've also been doing this loaded stuff for the last 12 years with a different bike, so I'm pretty sure I know how to ride a loaded touring bike. And if another person, a bike shop owner who has has many years of touring experience experienced the same problem that I had but worse because he weighs 50 pounds more than me, then he and I are pretty sure we know what's happening, and it's not the load or how we're handling the bike. The bike shop guy even tried retensioning the wheels, nothing, then he tried a Cane Creek Viscoset (sp?) that was suppose to stop shimmy, it did nothing, he checked everything from frame alignment to wheels being aligned in the dropouts, you name it he checked it. This is a situation that has gotten worse over time, not better, that is why the bike shop owner was so concerned because it's worse now. I also think my problem with that year of Giramondo may not be unique, because Masi was quick at replacing the frame, which could indicate they know there's a problem.

djb

In my opinion and from personal experience, all of your rear derailleur options should work perfectly fine
I ride a bunch of bikes, with regular old joe blow cheap rd's, good mid and top range 90s rd's, 2010 ish mid and top end rd's and a recentish clutch rd--they all work and they all shift fine --- IF all the other stuff is properly set up, housings, cables, aligned rd hangers, shifters working properly (and again, cheap shifters to good ones) and everything properly adjusted and lubed.

just use whatever one you want, except for the 80s one, that really doesnt make sense.

what load you carry on your bike shouldnt affect shifting. Your first frame sounds like it was whacked, wonky, and who knows, perhaps on top of that the drivetrain was not adjusted properly.

abdon 

I can't speak for others but it is hard to assume anything the way you described the issue. You went into both (an impossible amount of) flexing and hard to shift and asked if replacing a brand new derailleur would help (it won't).

If I could not send them the whole bike for them to figure it out I would cut my losses and get a different bike. even if it is a significant hit on your budget it is better than crashing because of it.

L134 

I'm sorry, I think I must have misunderstood or got distracted by tangential issues. I thought you were still having the wobbles.

abdon 

That's part of the issue here. He goes to great lengths to explain one problem and then ask if a derailleur would fix something else.

The frame got replaced so on the wobbles front it diminishes (but doesn't eliminates) the frame as being the culprit.

I would strip it down, measure alignment, and slowly build it back up inspecting every component. If it still wobbles I would write it off. It is not worth a crash at speed into incoming traffic.

rekmeyata

What has happened to reading comprehension and being nice in today's world?
I said that the bike shop owner rode the bike loaded and he was the one that said he could see the rear stays move a foot in either direction, was he over stating it? I don't know, but probably, but I do know with me on it, it was moving 2 to 3 inches, no, I can't measure it while riding, duh! But he weighs at least 50 pounds more than I do, so not sure how the frame responded with that kind of extra weight, I didn't see it happening with him on it, but he deemed the frame as unsafe, even if it move only 3 to 4 inches it's still unsafe.

Besides all that nonsense, I wasn't looking for an answer concerning the frame flex, that's being handled by Hara warranty, my question was about the derailleurs, could we PLEASE stick to the question I asked??

Geez...

djb

as an aside---a really good rack will be noticeably stiffer than a cheaper rack, so if you are putting lots of weight on the bike and plan to tour regularly, getting a good strong rack will help with things. I noticed this when I got some Tubus racks, but before I never really thought it would make a difference.
To be fair, most reasonably good racks shouldnt have a problem and frame characteristics are a big factor here.

you actually havent mentioned how much you weigh and how much weight you've had on your bike, specifically on the rear.

all this is a moot point I guess as your old frame clearly had something weird going on--but I feel still worth mentioning because we dont know the details I asked about which could be a factor overall (but not really for shifting, but for how the bike feels loaded up when riding)

this summer I rode with a young guy for the day and his bike wasnt a full on tourer, and when he had just that bit too much of weight on it (extra food, water) the tail was pretty waggy. I spent time riding behind him and really noticed it and he was aware of it and aware it happened when he had just that 5lbs or whatever too much on the bike.

again, probably not related to your original bikes problem.

djb

ps, that young guys bike didnt have front panniers, just some fork cage dry bags, so a lot more weight on the rear and a heavyish handlebar roll etc, so weight up high on the bars.
I get how a bikepacking setup has advantages, but having panniers lower down and especially front panniers low down with a reasonable amount of weight in them can really help with distributing weight all around so much better which can really contribute to a good handling bike.

but of course, specific bikes, specific racks, how things are loaded (fore/aft, heavier stuff down low in bottom of panniers) all come into play, so it is always very dependant on all this stuff and a bike can suddenly become very stable just by moving stuff around in your bags, that has certainly been my experience anyway.

rekmeyata

I have Tubus cargo steel rear rack, and Tubus Lowrider front, which I took off and replaced with Blackburn Bootlegger steel rack, they came on with the bike when new. Those racks are stock like I said, they came with the bike, the rear are not lowrider racks, the panniers set about mid way, not too high but no low either like a lowrider rack. I do pack with the heaviest stuff on the bottom of the panniers, and I pack with equal amount of weight in both panniers to balance the load. Even if the pannier rack is too high, those racks is what came with the bike, so I'm using what they provided. And I did try changing the weight inside the panniers by putting the lightest stuff on the bottom, which is totally against the internet wisdom, but doing that didn't seem to change a thing either for better or worse.

I'm 172 pounds average, without me being on the bike, my loaded weight, with water, and bike weight was 60.1 pounds on the rear wheel, and 31,8 pounds on the front, (all I had on the front was a handlebar bag and a 1 pound sleeping bag), that weight set up was my last attempt at trying to shift the weight around to improve the shimmy, that weight positioning had the least amount of frame shimmy no matter what percentage of the load went where. The bike shop guy rode my bike like that, he weighed between 50 to 60 pounds more than me, he claimed that rear of the bike was moving a foot in either direction, I think he was exaggerating that amount of movement, but whatever the amount actually was it scared him enough to warrant the bike as unsafe, and he feared that eventually a weld would fail someplace. When I followed what several sites on the internet suggested doing, that was 70% on the front and 30 on the rear the shimmy was horrible, and started at around 8 to 10 mph, it wasn't until the load got to 90% in the rear did it not shimmy until the speed got up to around 13 to 15 mph. When the load was mostly on the front the whole front end would violently shake from the fork and headtube to the rear, I could see that happening looking down. Originally I thought it was the wheels, so I had the wheels readjusted, but that did nothing. Now with the weight in the rear the back end shakes violently and spreads to the front.

The only method I have for weighing the bike was a bathroom scale, I put the rear tire on the scale, then the front tire, that's how those numbers came about.

Note too that this shimmy goes away without a load and just me on the bike, so it is load dependent. Before I bought the bike in 2019 I contacted Haro and told them how much of a load I would be carrying, even overstated the load amount just to see what they would say, and they assured me that it could handle that load and they have people doing it all the time including the guy I spoke to at Haro! But that Haro guy had a previous model, not the model that I got. When I got confirmation from the bike dealer that the bike was unsafe under load I contacted Haro and spoke to the same guy I did back in 2019, and he once again assured me that the new frame would not do that...I'll find out! Personally I have a sneaky feeling Haro knows of there being a problem with my model, because they gave me zero hassles in replacing it, they didn't even want to know the weight distribution, nor instructed me to try a different weight distribution, nothing, so that leads me to believe something went bad with those bikes in the either the metal used or the construction of the frame and they knew about it. They're probably only replacing them on a per call basis, some riders will never use the bike for loaded touring so those might never get warrantied.

I hope that answered all your questions. I did a lot of load experimentation before contacting Haro, I've been fooling with stuff since 2019 trying to find a happy combination, having the wheels readjusted, to no avail. The odd thing is that my old 85 Schwinn Le Tour Luxe with smaller diameter tubing vs the Masi, never ever shimmied no matter how fast the bike was going, and almost all the weight except for the handlebar bag was on the rear, and on that bike I was using the original aluminum pannier rack which is nowhere near as stiff as the steel rack on the Masi.

mstateglfr 

How do rear stays move 2 feet when the rear wheel stays planted?
That seems like an impossiblity to me.

biker128pedal

Glad your frame was warranted. I’m surprise they did not just swap the frameset and charge you for any new parts that had to be replaced.

Microshift gets good reviews and while I don’t have any of their parts I see more of it speced on touring bikes. I’d load up and take a few test rides before a trip. Just to make sure you’re used to it. As for the clutch try it both ways. From my Shimano experience I’d turn it off for road use and smoother shifting. But that’s what I perceive with my FS mountain bike for a long road ride to the trail.

schnee

Yeah, the trade-off you make for putting the load out of the way of trail obstacles is carrying much less of it.
Bikepacking generally involves packing light, so the waggles become less of an issue.
They also generally have much fatter tires, and are traveling more slowly over rougher ground, so less likely to get to a speed to induce wobbles.

In an attempt to avoid having large panniers on one of my first tours, I made the mistake of packing too much stuff too high up with bikepacking bags, and got wobbles.
Once I pushed all the weight on the front to lowrider rack, the steering got stable and calm.