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Grant Petersen Has Lost It

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Grant Petersen Has Lost It

Old 12-01-18, 08:37 AM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
I can understand why people want e-bikes classed as bicycles in terms of where it is permissible to ride them. I have no problem with that. Calling them bicycles in that context makes sense.

Arguing that they're just exactly the same as a bicycle because adding a motor is no different than adding gears seems to me to be a silly conceit.
Very silly. You're still doing 100% of the work regardless of the number of gears.
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Old 12-01-18, 09:02 AM
  #102  
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One psycho-spiritual aspiration e-bikes will never quench is a sense of fulfillment one gains from achieving a goal like completing that first century or climbing a steep mountain road for the first time.

Becoming one with your bike to earn a peak experience is where e-bikes will always leave me empty. I have No interest if there is no deeper connection to cycling.
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Old 12-01-18, 09:41 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by CAT7RDR View Post
One psycho-spiritual aspiration e-bikes will never quench is a sense of fulfillment one gains from achieving a goal like completing that first century or climbing a steep mountain road for the first time.

Becoming one with your bike to earn a peak experience is where e-bikes will always leave me empty. I have No interest if there is no deeper connection to cycling.
E-bikes probably do share with bicycles the fulfillment gained by reaching the rider's destination as expected, though probably without the afterglow of New Age mysticism.
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Old 12-01-18, 10:21 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Still needs power plants to generate the electrify. So depends on how the local electricity is generated. It may not be as great as you think.
Not sure about that - most coal powered stations tend not to be in the middle of cities where cars rule, and nuclear power doesnít produce much in the way of exhaust gases. Iím not claiming nuclear is a clean energy, by the way, it is anything but, only that it doesnít pump the noxious gases into the atmosphere in the way coal powered ones do.
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Old 12-01-18, 10:53 AM
  #105  
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This thread is funny/sad. In an era of so much division due to people creating false dialogues to further their personal agenda we have a poster who completely misrepresented what another person wrote hoping people would just run with it. And they have.

Whatever your beliefs about ebikes, I would have hoped the overwhelming message might have been to discredit or deny the OPs attempts to do so rather than trying to defend/discredit a bicycle.

At some point people are going to have to start caring about how the game is played rather than simply winning an argument. The topic was started by a blatent misrepresentation of another person's words and we used to think that was wrong.
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Old 12-01-18, 02:05 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
At some point people are going to have to start caring about how the game is played rather than simply winning an argument.
One would hope .... but it is a very dim hope ....
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Old 12-01-18, 03:01 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by maelochs View Post
one would hope .... But it is a very dim hope ....
+2.
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Old 12-01-18, 03:45 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
That is one argument I agree with on the ebikes, that they should be off limits when it comes to MTB trails. Firstly, from a fragility aspect (the ones by me are closed enough for poor trail conditions that they don't want ripped up, no need to add torquey motors to the mix), and secondly, if you aren't fit enough to ride the trails in the first place, I'd have a hard time believing most people have the dexterity and reflexes to safely navigate them. But, it is a line I feel can easily be policed, just like throttle bikes that gets up into moped speeds.
I'm not that thrilled with the prospect of ebikes on paths either, and I think the focus on speed being the issue is missing an even bigger potential problem. E assist is making possible larger and heavier cargo bikes, and I've seen some really heavy two wheeled pedal assist vehicles on commuter trails doing about 20 mph. Those heavy cargo ebikes really do need to be classed as street only vehicles because getting hit by one of those on a path at speed is a whole lot more dangerous than a normal weight bike going the same speed.
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Old 12-01-18, 04:36 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
This thread is funny/sad. In an era of so much division due to people creating false dialogues to further their personal agenda we have a poster who completely misrepresented what another person wrote hoping people would just run with it. And they have.

Whatever your beliefs about ebikes, I would have hoped the overwhelming message might have been to discredit or deny the OPs attempts to do so rather than trying to defend/discredit a bicycle.

At some point people are going to have to start caring about how the game is played rather than simply winning an argument. The topic was started by a blatent misrepresentation of another person's words and we used to think that was wrong.
One just has to read the linked article to realise that the OP must have read an entirely different article.
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Old 12-01-18, 05:04 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I'm not that thrilled with the prospect of ebikes on paths either, and I think the focus on speed being the issue is missing an even bigger potential problem. E assist is making possible larger and heavier cargo bikes, and I've seen some really heavy two wheeled pedal assist vehicles on commuter trails doing about 20 mph. Those heavy cargo ebikes really do need to be classed as street only vehicles because getting hit by one of those on a path at speed is a whole lot more dangerous than a normal weight bike going the same speed.
Eh, I regularly encounter a 30 strong group ride pushing 20MPH weeknights on my local trail, who has little tolerance for anyone getting in their way that'd do serious damage to anyone they actually hit. As with them,if someone is acting in an unsafe manner, punish them individually. Heck, there are plenty of people with small children that think "racing" bikes should be banned from trails, that is hardly a good reason to say only hybrids should be allowed.

And if your biggest fear is that someone might be riding a ladened down cargo bike at 18mph, I think that is all we need to know on how big of a problem this actually is. Getting hit by my 215# butt plus a 30# bike at 18mph is gonna hurt more than 150# person on a 75# bike. If speed is a concern, Anythign that can be propelled over 15mph should be banned. We can all ride low geared cruisers on trails.
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Old 12-01-18, 05:18 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
I think you might have a different perspective once youíve ridden one. I have a Copenhagen wheel which I sometimes attach to my cyclocross bike for commuting. When I ride it I put out the same power as my regular bike I just get to work 10 min faster. It feels exactly like riding a bicycle with a tailwind and it looks exactly like a bicycle. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
Eh, I regularly encounter a 30 strong group ride pushing 20MPH weeknights on my local trail, who has little tolerance for anyone getting in their way that'd do serious damage to anyone they actually hit. As with them,if someone is acting in an unsafe manner, punish them individually. Heck, there are plenty of people with small children that think "racing" bikes should be banned from trails, that is hardly a good reason to say only hybrids should be allowed.

And if your biggest fear is that someone might be riding a ladened down cargo bike at 18mph, I think that is all we need to know on how big of a problem this actually is. Getting hit by my 215# butt plus a 30# bike at 18mph is gonna hurt more than 150# person on a 75# bike. If speed is a concern, Anythign that can be propelled over 15mph should be banned. We can all ride low geared cruisers on trails.
What makes you think the rider is limited to 150# and the bike with cargo 75? I've definitely seen much heavier going 20 mph on a path. This is a different class of vehicle, and it's going to get worse as the motor technology improves.
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Old 12-01-18, 05:31 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
And if your biggest fear is that someone might be riding a ladened down cargo bike at 18mph, I think that is all we need to know on how big of a problem this actually is. Getting hit by my 215# butt plus a 30# bike at 18mph is gonna hurt more than 150# person on a 75# bike. If speed is a concern, Anythign that can be propelled over 15mph should be banned. We can all ride low geared cruisers on trails.
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
What makes you think the rider is limited to 150# and the bike with cargo 75? I've definitely seen much heavier going 20 mph on a path. This is a different class of vehicle, and it's going to get worse as the motor technology improves.
Unclear on the concept.

The "concept" as it were, is that the impact will be enough if it is me hitting you (eighth of a ton, lately) no matter what i am riding .... and likely a 150-pound guy going 25 or 28 is going to be even worse. The issue is not that loaded ebikes are going to be going to fast ... the issue is getting hit by Anything going 15-25 mph while you are riding or walking.

And as we all know, that happens to you a lot, right? i mean, you get into a collision on the road or trail ... what, wait .. never?

So this is just a frightened fantasy, no more real than alien abduction or attack by ghosts .... okay.

I'll tell you what ... you post ten pictures of people doing 20+ mph on 400-pound rigs on your local trails and we will have a discussion about that.

We will Not have a discussion about your ten worst nightmares. See a professional about that.
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Old 12-01-18, 06:51 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by CAT7RDR View Post
One psycho-spiritual aspiration e-bikes will never quench is a sense of fulfillment one gains from achieving a goal like completing that first century or climbing a steep mountain road for the first time.

Becoming one with your bike to earn a peak experience is where e-bikes will always leave me empty. I have No interest if there is no deeper connection to cycling.
I lost that pyscho-spiritual aspiration the 800th time I travelled the same segment on the way to work so I'm good with the occasional unfulfilling ride
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Old 12-01-18, 08:54 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Unclear on the concept.

The "concept" as it were, is that the impact will be enough if it is me hitting you (eighth of a ton, lately) no matter what i am riding .... and likely a 150-pound guy going 25 or 28 is going to be even worse. The issue is not that loaded ebikes are going to be going to fast ... the issue is getting hit by Anything going 15-25 mph while you are riding or walking.

And as we all know, that happens to you a lot, right? i mean, you get into a collision on the road or trail ... what, wait .. never?

So this is just a frightened fantasy, no more real than alien abduction or attack by ghosts .... okay.

I'll tell you what ... you post ten pictures of people doing 20+ mph on 400-pound rigs on your local trails and we will have a discussion about that.

We will Not have a discussion about your ten worst nightmares. See a professional about that.
Collisions never happen on bike paths? And you're calling me nuts?
https://qctimes.com/news/local/barb-...5d395f246.html

I know you've been striving for total gasbag status for a while now, but with that use of the imperial "We", you've finally made the grade.

When I actually care what you do or do not believe, I'll figure out how to execute a fast 180 and follow the offending motorized cargo bike on a crowded Minuteman Commuter Path in Arlington, MA, safely get up to speed to catch it and take the required 10 pictures of it. Meanwhile, I'll wait for your next hypocritical rant about civility on BF and wonder who hurt you so badly. I don't know whether the very large bikes I saw were home brews or not, but I'm not delusional, and I really have no reason to lie about it.

Do the math genius, if you add say 90 pounds of cargo to a 75 pound bike and a 250 pound rider plus a couple of mph, you greatly increase the likelihood of lethality.
And no, it isn't just a matter of speed. Are you also ok with someone operating a Harley at 20 mph on the bike path? If not, why not?
​​​​​
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Old 12-01-18, 09:00 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I'm not that thrilled with the prospect of ebikes on paths either, and I think the focus on speed being the issue is missing an even bigger potential problem. E assist is making possible larger and heavier cargo bikes, and I've seen some really heavy two wheeled pedal assist vehicles on commuter trails doing about 20 mph. Those heavy cargo ebikes really do need to be classed as street only vehicles because getting hit by one of those on a path at speed is a whole lot more dangerous than a normal weight bike going the same speed.
Good point. This article made me look up the law in WI, which seems to mirror federal law and allows ebikes up to 750W. They are supposed to turn off the motor (human pedal only) on bike paths or trails labeled as "no motor vehicles". There is no distinction between throttle and pedal assist since the motor only is allowed to be used on roads or other trails allowed for motor vehicles.
Obviously there is no enforcement on the "turn motor off" requirement. The other problem is that 750W is like 3 humans pedaling. So depending on rider the bike can be propelled with up to 4 human powers. They should limit ebikes to 250W (about a fit human) so that disabled people or commuters can ride like normal riders... but not be much faster with a given bike weight.
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Old 12-02-18, 01:16 AM
  #116  
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These are cases where the technology moves faster than the legislation. There needs to be specific legal requirements for what can be categorized and sold as bikes; and any motor that provides an output beyond a specified threshold -- assist or otherwise -- should be considered a motor vehicle and not be allowed to be sold under the bicycle banner.

If it were up to me the limit would be a maximum assist of one half the amount of the maximum average for human pedaling wattage, i.e. 400/2 = 200 watts. That's 50% assist. Nobody should need more than that and still call it a bike.
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Old 12-02-18, 02:01 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
Good point. This article made me look up the law in WI, which seems to mirror federal law and allows ebikes up to 750W. They are supposed to turn off the motor (human pedal only) on bike paths or trails labeled as "no motor vehicles". There is no distinction between throttle and pedal assist since the motor only is allowed to be used on roads or other trails allowed for motor vehicles.
Obviously there is no enforcement on the "turn motor off" requirement. The other problem is that 750W is like 3 humans pedaling. So depending on rider the bike can be propelled with up to 4 human powers. They should limit ebikes to 250W (about a fit human) so that disabled people or commuters can ride like normal riders... but not be much faster with a given bike weight.
If that "turn motor off" rule was in place in MA, it would probably take care of the problem. These things are too big to be ridden with any speed at all without a motor.

The 200-250 watt rule you and Krane are proposing seems very reasonable, but I would think a lot harder to enforce than a motors off rule. Would there be any way for a cop to eyeball this without trying to read specs off of a label or something? Honest question. I don't really have any experience operating small motors.
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Old 12-02-18, 09:51 AM
  #118  
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Grant markets to a niche. Whether you buy it or not, his writing is always consistent with respect to swaying people to buy his niche products. I read part of the article, skimmed the rest. Reading this thread is more entertaining.
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Old 12-02-18, 09:53 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
This thread is funny/sad. In an era of so much division due to people creating false dialogues to further their personal agenda we have a poster who completely misrepresented what another person wrote hoping people would just run with it. And they have.

Whatever your beliefs about ebikes, I would have hoped the overwhelming message might have been to discredit or deny the OPs attempts to do so rather than trying to defend/discredit a bicycle.

At some point people are going to have to start caring about how the game is played rather than simply winning an argument. The topic was started by a blatent misrepresentation of another person's words and we used to think that was wrong.
+ 1 on all this. I made this point earlier. The OP's post is a failure by any definition.
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Old 12-02-18, 09:55 AM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
One just has to read the linked article to realise that the OP must have read an entirely different article.
+ 1. Or more likely just made up alternative facts to suit the OP's agenda.
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Old 12-02-18, 12:24 PM
  #121  
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Always love to see the e-bike haters that know almost nothing about them and have never actually ridden a good one, it always makes a good chuckle. I understand the hatred of throttles but this is a bike forum not a motorcycle forum so that makes total sense but a bike you have to pedal in order to move forward is why we are all here (or at least most of us) so hating on another option in the bicycle category is silly. It is the same dumb stuff with "road bikers and mountain bikers where a fake division has been created and lines of hate have been drawn in some cases. The more people riding bikes the better this world might be. The only reason to care if they have a motor to assist them is if you are racing against those who don't have assistance. Beyond that who the heck cares, ride your bike and enjoy life.

If you really need something to hate go after the e-scooters or the gas burning cars or hate on those who hate bikes completely. Or if you want something silly Shimango's vs. ScRAM's vs. Campanoglios is always easy or
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Old 12-02-18, 12:43 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by BlazingPedals View Post
Grant markets to a niche. Whether you buy it or not, his writing is always consistent with respect to swaying people to buy his niche products. I read part of the article, skimmed the rest. Reading this thread is more entertaining.
I think what Grant sees is the end of the road for his business. Electric bikes are a niche at the moment but are about to go main stream. Overall, the electric bike purchaser tend to be the same high income customer that buy Rivendell bikes. If these cyclist choose an e-bike instead of his high quality frames, it could be the end of his business.
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Old 12-02-18, 12:52 PM
  #123  
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Grant Peterson in his usual Machiavellian way is trying to deceive us: Rivendell has a massive e-bike R&D effort underway and Grant is trying to keep it undercover by pretending he doesn't like e-bikes.

The Rivendell e-bike will have 3 top tubes that will house the batteries.
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Old 12-02-18, 01:25 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Collisions never happen on bike paths? And you're calling me nuts?
https://qctimes.com/news/local/barb-...5d395f246.html

I know you've been striving for total gasbag status for a while now, but with that use of the imperial "We", you've finally made the grade.
​​​​​
"We" in this case would mean, "You and I."

Call me back when you learn basic English, maybe we can have a conversation.
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Old 12-02-18, 02:08 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve View Post
Overall, the electric bike purchaser tend to be the same high income customer that buy Rivendell bikes.
Source?
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