Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

Helmets for your handlebars

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Helmets for your handlebars

Old 08-06-19, 07:55 PM
  #51  
Homebrew01
Super Moderator
 
Homebrew01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ffld Cnty Connecticut
Posts: 21,201

Bikes: Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 861 Post(s)
Liked 85 Times in 70 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
This lady riding with a kid is going to be careening down the road at what, 6 or 7 mph? That's a pretty marginal call at best as to whether helmet wear adds a lot of safety in that situation.
Doesn't take much to get hurt. Standing still, then falling and hitting your head on cement could be life threatening.
__________________
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike.

FYI: http://www.bikeforums.net/forum-sugg...ad-please.html
Homebrew01 is offline  
Likes For Homebrew01:
Old 08-06-19, 08:06 PM
  #52  
DrIsotope
Non omnino gravis
 
DrIsotope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: SoCal, USA!
Posts: 7,179

Bikes: Nekobasu, Pandicorn

Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3918 Post(s)
Liked 408 Times in 259 Posts
Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
you're in violation of Rule #76 // Helmets are to be hung from your stem.When not worn, helmets are to be clipped to the stem and draped over your handlebars thusly.
Rules I broke today:

24, 27, 30, 31, 33, 34, 41, 45, 48, 50, 54, 56, 57, 62, 74, 91, 92, and 93.

...and that's without trying. I ate a bar at mile 30, and stopped at a coffee shop (where I drank a vanilla milk) during my 70-miler this morning (3 hours 58 minutes.) Aerobars on there, pump and Co2s, the whole shebang.

The Rules are entertaining yet at the same time mostly ridiculous.
__________________
DrIsotope is offline  
Likes For DrIsotope:
Old 08-06-19, 08:09 PM
  #53  
GlennR
I'm Lost
 
GlennR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Posts: 5,554

Bikes: Trek Emonda SLR, Sram eTap, Zipp 303

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1189 Post(s)
Liked 159 Times in 88 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
This lady riding with a kid is going to be careening down the road at what, 6 or 7 mph? That's a pretty marginal call at best as to whether helmet wear adds a lot of safety in that situation.
I've seen half a dozen people crash getting on and off the bike. Just last week I saw a couple cross a road on the MUP and the lady hit the sand and went down like a stone at maybe 3 miles an hour. When she got up here was a nice scuff on her helmet.
GlennR is offline  
Old 08-06-19, 08:11 PM
  #54  
GlennR
I'm Lost
 
GlennR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Posts: 5,554

Bikes: Trek Emonda SLR, Sram eTap, Zipp 303

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1189 Post(s)
Liked 159 Times in 88 Posts
Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Rules I broke today:

24, 27, 30, 31, 33, 34, 41, 45, 48, 50, 54, 56, 57, 62, 74, 91, 92, and 93.

...and that's without trying. I ate a bar at mile 30, and stopped at a coffee shop (where I drank a vanilla milk) during my 70-miler this morning (3 hours 58 minutes.) Aerobars on there, pump and Co2s, the whole shebang.

The Rules are entertaining yet at the same time mostly ridiculous.
I just hope your socks were not too high
GlennR is offline  
Old 08-06-19, 08:13 PM
  #55  
DrIsotope
Non omnino gravis
 
DrIsotope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: SoCal, USA!
Posts: 7,179

Bikes: Nekobasu, Pandicorn

Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3918 Post(s)
Liked 408 Times in 259 Posts
Way too high. I've got some over-the-calf stuff.
__________________
DrIsotope is offline  
Old 08-06-19, 08:26 PM
  #56  
Happy Feet
Senior Member
 
Happy Feet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,500
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1371 Post(s)
Liked 241 Times in 147 Posts
To put it into perspective: Runners often go more than 5km per hour and trip, pedestreans sometimes step off the curb. people getting out of showers slip, others fall off ladders... None wear helmets.
Happy Feet is offline  
Likes For Happy Feet:
Old 08-06-19, 08:27 PM
  #57  
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 27,862

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 145 Times in 95 Posts
Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
Nothing bogus here - helmets banging around on the handlebars will damage them and make the ineffective at protecting your skull when you wreck. If you don't see the value in a helmet, don't bring it. If you see it has any value, put it on your head. Simple as that.
What makes you think a helmet that has suffered "damage" from being carried on the handlebars any less effective than a pristine version of same?

Quite simply, if helmets are so easily made ineffective at noggin protection and must be handled as if it were fragile glassware, the helmet probably has very little value for someone looking for serious head protection in real world use, especially if such critical "damage" is invisible to the user.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 08-06-19, 08:32 PM
  #58  
Happy Feet
Senior Member
 
Happy Feet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,500
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1371 Post(s)
Liked 241 Times in 147 Posts
My helmet makes a great kickstand. But at the store I was very specific that I wanted a helmet made for gravel.

Happy Feet is offline  
Likes For Happy Feet:
Old 08-06-19, 11:54 PM
  #59  
livedarklions
Cyclesomatic
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 4,709

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Motobecane Fantom CX; Giant OCR A1

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2396 Post(s)
Liked 764 Times in 474 Posts
Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
Doesn't take much to get hurt. Standing still, then falling and hitting your head on cement could be life threatening.
Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
I've seen half a dozen people crash getting on and off the bike. Just last week I saw a couple cross a road on the MUP and the lady hit the sand and went down like a stone at maybe 3 miles an hour. When she got up here was a nice scuff on her helmet.
Obvious points -- people don't wear "standing still then falling" helmets even though there's a non-zero chance of fatal injury, and a scuff on the helmet indicates she probably saved herself from a scratch but says next to nothing about the likelihood of serious injury. I'd bet money that you're far more likely to suffer a brain injury from falling down the stairs than getting off a bike, but we wouldn't be making snarky comments to a person carrying their bike helmet on the stairs.

Safety precautions are all about reducing probabilities, not for creating the impossible condition of zero risk. If you're alive, you are constantly facing a non-zero chance of fatal injury no matter what you're doing.
livedarklions is offline  
Likes For livedarklions:
Old 08-07-19, 12:02 AM
  #60  
livedarklions
Cyclesomatic
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 4,709

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Motobecane Fantom CX; Giant OCR A1

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2396 Post(s)
Liked 764 Times in 474 Posts
Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
I don't wear my helmet on long climbs. I don't care what anyone thinks about it, either. If I have to go 6mph for 2 hours, the helmet isn't doing anything but making sweat. I keep a velcro strap in my bike bag, and hang the helmet from under the saddle.

When I get to the top and it's time to descend, I put the helmet back on.

I think the only takeaway from this thread is that if you're not gonna wear your helmet, don't hang it from the bars.
In fairness, though, the lady in the photo also has a basket on her handlebars. At low speed, that helmet isn't moving around much.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 08-07-19, 05:18 AM
  #61  
GlennR
I'm Lost
 
GlennR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Posts: 5,554

Bikes: Trek Emonda SLR, Sram eTap, Zipp 303

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1189 Post(s)
Liked 159 Times in 88 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Obvious points -- people don't wear "standing still then falling" helmets even though there's a non-zero chance of fatal injury, and a scuff on the helmet indicates she probably saved herself from a scratch but says next to nothing about the likelihood of serious injury. I'd bet money that you're far more likely to suffer a brain injury from falling down the stairs than getting off a bike, but we wouldn't be making snarky comments to a person carrying their bike helmet on the stairs..
She landed on the grass. She was a rather large lady, 250# or more and went down like a stone. If she had no helmet and hit the concrete or a large rock, I suspect she would of gone to the hospital.

I also once saw a 4 year old on a bike with training wheels. She turned her head to see behind where her parents were and of course she also turned the handle bars. She went over the handle bars and landed on her head. Her mom ran up and I told her to check her teeth.. they were fine,. But she brushed away her bangs and he had a bump the size of an egg. I told her to get her to the hospital.

Trust me I was shaken to see a a 4 year old so injured and only wondered if she was wearing a helmet would she be in suich bad shape.

Adults can make their own decision and will have to live with them. But kids rely on their parents to protect them.

Helmets are like seat belts... they don't work if you're not wearing them.

In Connecticut, motor cyclists are not required to wear helmets and most don't. We call them organ donors.
GlennR is offline  
Likes For GlennR:
Old 08-07-19, 06:02 AM
  #62  
downhillmaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 809
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 480 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 161 Times in 86 Posts
Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
To put it into perspective: Runners often go more than 5km per hour and trip, pedestreans sometimes step off the curb. people getting out of showers slip, others fall off ladders... None wear helmets.
This. OP maybe grew up wearing a safety helmet all the time though so doesnít get it. All good.
I personally wear a helmet all the time but donít feel the need to call out and/or shame strangers for not wearing one.
downhillmaster is offline  
Old 08-07-19, 06:29 AM
  #63  
Hypno Toad
meh
Thread Starter
 
Hypno Toad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hopkins, MN
Posts: 3,680

Bikes: 17 Breezer Radar Pro; 15 Surly Pugsley; 13 Felt Z85; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 678 Post(s)
Liked 55 Times in 43 Posts
Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
To put it into perspective: Runners often go more than 5km per hour and trip, pedestreans sometimes step off the curb. people getting out of showers slip, others fall off ladders... None wear helmets.
Cool story!

Like stated in the OP, don't wanna wear a helmet... leave it at home.
Hypno Toad is offline  
Old 08-07-19, 06:35 AM
  #64  
Hypno Toad
meh
Thread Starter
 
Hypno Toad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hopkins, MN
Posts: 3,680

Bikes: 17 Breezer Radar Pro; 15 Surly Pugsley; 13 Felt Z85; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 678 Post(s)
Liked 55 Times in 43 Posts
Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post
This. OP maybe grew up wearing a safety helmet all the time though so doesnít get it. All good.
I personally wear a helmet all the time but donít feel the need to call out and/or shame strangers for not wearing one.
Really? Remind me about the safety helmets for the era when I grew up. (reference: I'm 50 years old).

When did the Toad shame a stranger? All I see is an observation on a internet forum pointing out ironic behavior. But thanks for playing along with your inaccurate assumptions!
Hypno Toad is offline  
Old 08-07-19, 06:44 AM
  #65  
Hypno Toad
meh
Thread Starter
 
Hypno Toad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hopkins, MN
Posts: 3,680

Bikes: 17 Breezer Radar Pro; 15 Surly Pugsley; 13 Felt Z85; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 678 Post(s)
Liked 55 Times in 43 Posts
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
What makes you think a helmet that has suffered "damage" from being carried on the handlebars any less effective than a pristine version of same?

Quite simply, if helmets are so easily made ineffective at noggin protection and must be handled as if it were fragile glassware, the helmet probably has very little value for someone looking for serious head protection in real world use, especially if such critical "damage" is invisible to the user.
Your right, rattling around doesn't quickly render a helmet ineffective. But that really wasn't the point.

Again, if you see the value in a helmet to protect your skull, you take care of it and keep it on your head. If you don't see it as valuable, than leave it at home or simply don't buy one.
Hypno Toad is offline  
Old 08-07-19, 06:47 AM
  #66  
downhillmaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 809
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 480 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 161 Times in 86 Posts
Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
Your right, rattling around doesn't quickly render a helmet ineffective. But that really wasn't the point.

Again, if you see the value in a helmet to protect your skull, you take care of it and keep it on your head. If you don't see it as valuable, than leave it at home or simply don't buy one.
Or do whatever you want with it because it is your helmet
downhillmaster is offline  
Old 08-07-19, 06:52 AM
  #67  
Hypno Toad
meh
Thread Starter
 
Hypno Toad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hopkins, MN
Posts: 3,680

Bikes: 17 Breezer Radar Pro; 15 Surly Pugsley; 13 Felt Z85; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 678 Post(s)
Liked 55 Times in 43 Posts
Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post
Or do whatever you want with it because it is your helmet
Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
[this is just] an observation on a internet forum pointing out ironic behavior.
Hypno Toad is offline  
Old 08-07-19, 06:53 AM
  #68  
livedarklions
Cyclesomatic
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 4,709

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Motobecane Fantom CX; Giant OCR A1

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2396 Post(s)
Liked 764 Times in 474 Posts
Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
She landed on the grass. She was a rather large lady, 250# or more and went down like a stone. If she had no helmet and hit the concrete or a large rock, I suspect she would of gone to the hospital.

I also once saw a 4 year old on a bike with training wheels. She turned her head to see behind where her parents were and of course she also turned the handle bars. She went over the handle bars and landed on her head. Her mom ran up and I told her to check her teeth.. they were fine,. But she brushed away her bangs and he had a bump the size of an egg. I told her to get her to the hospital.

Trust me I was shaken to see a a 4 year old so injured and only wondered if she was wearing a helmet would she be in suich bad shape.

Adults can make their own decision and will have to live with them. But kids rely on their parents to protect them.

Helmets are like seat belts... they don't work if you're not wearing them.

In Connecticut, motor cyclists are not required to wear helmets and most don't. We call them organ donors.
The laws where I have lived have mandated helmets for children. Not really the issue as far as I'm concerned. If for nothing else, kids' heads are much larger in proportion to their torso than adults', so the likelihoods are quite different.


I always wear a helmet. As far as I can see, the theme of this thread is that it's ok to chide people you don't know for keeping a helmet on their handlebars because it's supposedly such a stupid thing to do. We can trade anecdotes all day long, but my point would remain the same--it's not ok to do so given that it's considered perfectly normal not to wear helmets doing things that are far more likely to result in brain injury without helmets.

If you want to be consistent and chide people for not wearing helmets while climbing ladders, engaging in competitive figure skating, pole vaulting, jumping hurdles, skateboarding, and walking on the escalator, fine, but don't expect the chiding to be applauded.

OP and I disagree on whether he is socially licensed to chide strangers because they violate his sense of irony.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 08-07-19, 06:55 AM
  #69  
livedarklions
Cyclesomatic
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 4,709

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Motobecane Fantom CX; Giant OCR A1

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2396 Post(s)
Liked 764 Times in 474 Posts
Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
Cool story!

Like stated in the OP, don't wanna wear a helmet... leave it at home.
Like stated multiple times--who the heck are you to tell people what to do?
livedarklions is offline  
Old 08-07-19, 07:00 AM
  #70  
Hypno Toad
meh
Thread Starter
 
Hypno Toad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hopkins, MN
Posts: 3,680

Bikes: 17 Breezer Radar Pro; 15 Surly Pugsley; 13 Felt Z85; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 678 Post(s)
Liked 55 Times in 43 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Like stated multiple times--who the heck are you to tell people what to do?
Please allow me to repeat for your clarity:

Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
[this is just] an observation on a internet forum pointing out ironic behavior.


Based on your posts, I'll assume you hang your helmet from you bars ... so I sorry that you felt like I was telling you what to do. Please continue to be ironic and I will continue to be amused.
Hypno Toad is offline  
Old 08-07-19, 07:00 AM
  #71  
Brocephus
Professional amateur
 
Brocephus's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Ga.
Posts: 600

Bikes: Does a Big Wheel count ?

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 273 Post(s)
Liked 103 Times in 68 Posts
Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post
..... but don’t feel the need to call out and/or shame strangers for not wearing one.
To be fair, I don't believe the OP actually "called out" or "shamed" the woman (unless anyone seriously suspects she's likely to be reading this thread). He's stated repeatedly he's just killing time and ranting a bit, to (more or less) like-minded people, on a discussion board... which is basically why these things exist.
No harm, no-foul.
If we start cracking down on threads that are casually conversational, frivolous, pointless, unnecessary, redundant, asked-and-answered, just-out-of-curiosity, etc.etc, then we'd probably reduce the forum's volume by 70% !
And as is often stated, but seldom heeded, "if you don't like the content, you don't have to read it, much less, comment". (Hey, that kinda rhymed ! Look, I'm a rapper now!)
And BTW, the OP makes a valid point. While people are admittedly free to do as they please, that doesn't negate the fact that it IS stupid to purchase, own, and then even carry a helmet, only to ride around in traffic with it hanging from your handlebars.

Last edited by Brocephus; 08-07-19 at 07:08 AM.
Brocephus is offline  
Likes For Brocephus:
Old 08-07-19, 07:01 AM
  #72  
AlmostTrick
Tortoise Wins by a Hare!
 
AlmostTrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Looney Tunes, IL
Posts: 6,559

Bikes: Wabi Special FG, Raleigh Roper, Nashbar AL-1, Miyata One Hundred, '68 Schwinn Orange Krate, and More!!

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1127 Post(s)
Liked 158 Times in 99 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Like stated multiple times--who the heck are you to tell people what to do?
That silliness can go on forever. Who are you to tell the OP what to do? (or not do)

Mods, Dump this mess in the helmet thread already. Thanks.
AlmostTrick is offline  
Old 08-07-19, 07:02 AM
  #73  
downhillmaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 809
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 480 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 161 Times in 86 Posts
Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
Really? Remind me about the safety helmets for the era when I grew up. (reference: I'm 50 years old).

When did the Toad shame a stranger? All I see is an observation on a internet forum pointing out ironic behavior. But thanks for playing along with your inaccurate assumptions!
Wow. Backpedal much?
You stated this:
ĎIf you don't see it as valuable, than leave it at home or simply don't buy oneí
Thatís clearly not just an observation. That is judgement.
downhillmaster is offline  
Old 08-07-19, 07:05 AM
  #74  
GlennR
I'm Lost
 
GlennR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Posts: 5,554

Bikes: Trek Emonda SLR, Sram eTap, Zipp 303

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1189 Post(s)
Liked 159 Times in 88 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
The laws where I have lived have mandated helmets for children. Not really the issue as far as I'm concerned. If for nothing else, kids' heads are much larger in proportion to their torso than adults', so the likelihoods are quite different.


I always wear a helmet. As far as I can see, the theme of this thread is that it's ok to chide people you don't know for keeping a helmet on their handlebars because it's supposedly such a stupid thing to do. We can trade anecdotes all day long, but my point would remain the same--it's not ok to do so given that it's considered perfectly normal not to wear helmets doing things that are far more likely to result in brain injury without helmets.

If you want to be consistent and chide people for not wearing helmets while climbing ladders, engaging in competitive figure skating, pole vaulting, jumping hurdles, skateboarding, and walking on the escalator, fine, but don't expect the chiding to be applauded.

OP and I disagree on whether he is socially licensed to chide strangers because they violate his sense of irony.
In most states, bike helmets are required for children.

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
If you want to be consistent and chide people for not wearing helmets while climbing ladders,
OSHA already does.
GlennR is offline  
Old 08-07-19, 07:11 AM
  #75  
livedarklions
Cyclesomatic
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 4,709

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Motobecane Fantom CX; Giant OCR A1

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2396 Post(s)
Liked 764 Times in 474 Posts
Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
In most states, bike helmets are required for children.



OSHA already does.
See a lot of people wearing helmets while cleaning gutters at their homes, do you?
livedarklions is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.