Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Touring
Reload this Page >

What can the E-assist option bring for bicycle touring.

Notices
Touring Have a dream to ride a bike across your state, across the country, or around the world? Self-contained or fully supported? Trade ideas, adventures, and more in our bicycle touring forum.

What can the E-assist option bring for bicycle touring.

Old 07-18-16, 04:58 PM
  #201  
Happy Feet
Senior Member
 
Happy Feet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Left Coast, Canada
Posts: 4,149
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1675 Post(s)
Liked 640 Times in 372 Posts
Neil, you can go back and just read the thread if it matters. I did and that's why I posted what happened, who was told what, and what transpired. If you persist in a different version of what is still there to be read what can anyone say?

I don't think anyone called you a troll. I believe you are arguing in good faith even if I don't agree with your position and that is why I am engaging with you. It's personal in the sense that we are addressing each other but your right to participate is not in question. It is just hard to reconcile the disparity in what you advocate and what you claim for yourself.

You claim inclusiveness for yourself to discuss but your position is to limit what others can discuss.
You don't allow discussion that may sway the outcome on your site but participate here wanting to influence the outcome of this discussion.
You worry about peoples voice being silenced but the person you worry about wanted to silence peoples voice.

The discussion is a bit "more" than usual because you actually are someone who can change policy as is being advocated by some here. You have exercised that power to effect a whole community so I think it is fair to question the how and why here. Did you conduct a vote to see what the prevailing sentiment was? Was there any consultation and if so, did you collect feedback from those who would be marginalized? Would a counter sentiment have swayed your decision or would you simply do what you did because it is your website? I also think it's fair to ask, seeing as you have what you want in your community, why you feel the need to change a community you claim yourself seldom to visit. Why the disinterested is so interested.

I am not a regular member of your community. What would your response be if I started frequenting your forum advocating that CGOAB should include E bike tour related threads. Would I receive the same degree of tolerance (freedom to continue speaking) or would I be asked to leave? That's the sort of disconnect that most other posters don't have to answer to I suppose, so that makes it unique to you, but I think the questioning is valid because it represents the effect banning discussion would have if imposed here. Your site represent a real version of what BF could be if certain ideas bore fruit.

What other forum would I go to to have a meta discussion about what I couldn't have a discussion about on BF?

Last edited by Happy Feet; 07-18-16 at 05:09 PM.
Happy Feet is offline  
Old 07-18-16, 06:03 PM
  #202  
NeilGunton
Crazyguyonabike
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Albany, OR
Posts: 689

Bikes: Co-Motion Divide

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by MixedRider View Post
You make some very valuable points in earlier posts, so lets not make this a philosophical debate about ebikes being in existence.
It wasn't. I was arguing that motorized bicycles don't belong on a bicycle touring forum, that's all.

Look at it this way. You already exclude most of the world of topics from this forum. I doubt people would say it's ok to post threads on ATV's here. But I'm sure people tour on ATV's, and they probably encounter some of the same issues (camping etc) that bicycle tourists do. But we don't allow those discussions, because it's not "bicycle touring". All I am saying is that surely one of the fundamental aspects of "bicycle touring" is that there is no motor involved, no external power input.

I have said explicitly that I am not against the idea of e-bikes, so please don't twist my words to make it seem like that's my position. This is about what belongs here in a forum that is ostensibly about bicycle touring.

It sounds like you are completely opposed to e-bikes for touring. However, in post #189 you state you have tolerated some posts on your website about e-bikes. I just did a google search of your website and there are numerous ebike entries.
Let me google that for you
Yes, I try to be a little bit tolerant. I'm also against religion, and the rules state that it's a "Religion Free" zone, but there are journals on crazyguyonabike where people talk quite openly about their faith, and I didn't ban them. I'm not going to ban someone just because they mention e-bikes, so sometimes a discussion will happen. I can't help that. Usually, you'll find that such discussions are somewhat curtailed by me saying that e-bikes are not permitted in the journals, which they aren't (but sometimes I might still miss one, especially if the author doesn't make it clear). I don't recall ever saying that it's "open season" for e-bikes on crazyguyonabike. The website has been around for a good long while and has had a lot of forum discussions, so the fact that there are some findable mentions of the term on google doesn't surprise me at all... but again, if you ask me, then I'll tell you that crazyguyonabike is not the place for e-bike journals.

There appears to be a fine-line where input from people touring on ebikes can provide valuable feedback as it relates to touring, even on crazyguyonabike. That is the whole point of discussion of this thread. So where is that said line?

IMHO, If the post is mostly about the e-bike, then no, it doesn't belong here. But if you toured, on a legally allowed ebike, what is the harm of posting about your experience of the tour, providing input as to touring? People can decide for themselves if it is something they like or not.
Because of the whole slippery slope argument I made earlier. If you say that e-bikes are part of bicycle touring now, then it'll get harder and harder to distinguish that line as the technology improves down the line. What might be fairly obvious right now, in the industry's infancy, is just going to get more fuzzy, I guarantee. In any case, I think a much clearer line to draw, and one that makes intuitive sense to most cyclists, I'd warrant, is to simply say "no motors". Note that I'm not saying "you can't ride an e-bike", or even "you can't have a forum about them", or even "you can't have an e-bike touring forum" (I will almost certainly have one over on topicwise). My point is that they don't belong in *this* forum. Human powered is one of the basic tenets of "bicycle touring", I thought. If we start muddying the water by bringing motors into it and saying that it's all ok just because of some fuzzy inclusiveness mantra, then it'll get ever harder to say what's ok and what isn't. That was my point.

I didn't want to get back into this, but since you addressed me directly I felt you deserved a reply, so there you go.

Neil
NeilGunton is offline  
Old 07-18-16, 06:21 PM
  #203  
NeilGunton
Crazyguyonabike
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Albany, OR
Posts: 689

Bikes: Co-Motion Divide

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Neil, you can go back and just read the thread if it matters. I did and that's why I posted what happened, who was told what, and what transpired. If you persist in a different version of what is still there to be read what can anyone say?
One can say that you're being selective with the truth. It was clearly suggested that the people saying that motors have no place here were trolls, and that they should be banned from this discussion. And in fact one or two people seem to have disappeared. And you called me a jerk, as I recall, and others were being called dickheads.

I don't think anyone called you a troll. I believe you are arguing in good faith even if I don't agree with your position and that is why I am engaging with you. It's personal in the sense that we are addressing each other but your right to participate is not in question. It is just hard to reconcile the disparity in what you advocate and what you claim for yourself.
Again, you appear to have a weak grasp of language. Read this very carefully: Discussing whether x has a place on the forum is not the same as discussing x. I am within my rights to argue that x is off-topic. Telling me that since I say x is off-topic, therefore anybody has the right to discuss x, is simply nonsensical.

The discussion is a bit "more" than usual because you actually are someone who can change policy as is being advocated by some here. You have exercised that power to effect a whole community so I think it is fair to question the how and why here. Did you conduct a vote to see what the prevailing sentiment was? Was there any consultation and if so, did you collect feedback from those who would be marginalized? Would a counter sentiment have swayed your decision or would you simply do what you did because it is your website? I also think it's fair to ask, seeing as you have what you want in your community, why you feel the need to change a community you claim yourself seldom to visit. Why the disinterested is so interested.
No, I did not conduct a vote or poll. My website is not a democracy, as the site owner I make decisions every day about what goes and what doesn't. I regard it as a rather basic and self-evident tenet of bicycle touring that it does NOT involve external motor power of any kind. I do take input from the community, but sometimes I just take what is patently obvious and run with that.

I am not a regular member of your community. What would your response be if I started frequenting your forum advocating that CGOAB should include E bike tour related threads. Would I receive the same degree of tolerance (freedom to continue speaking) or would I be asked to leave?
If you persisted in your campaign after being told my policy on the matter, then yes, you might be asked to leave. I generally ask people who are being a pain in the butt to leave the site, because I don't have time for endless jousting matches with people who will obviously never change their minds (and, often, end up just hanging around to post snarky comments at every opportunity). I practice a pragmatic policy of live and let live, wherever possible, but if you give me any crap, then you are thrown out. I have a low tolerance for BS, which is perhaps why I took such a strong position in this discussion here... because it frankly seems like BS to me. People arguing that motors on bicycles is just fine for a bicycle touring forum? What planet are we on? Oh yeah, I forgot - one where social justice warriors like yourself end up muddying the water to such a degree that everything becomes gray. Wonderful.

I'm frankly tired of this now, it's not about the original points any more but just going in circles, so I'd really like to bow out and get on with my life. Thanks.

Neil

Last edited by NeilGunton; 07-18-16 at 06:26 PM.
NeilGunton is offline  
Old 07-18-16, 07:18 PM
  #204  
Happy Feet
Senior Member
 
Happy Feet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Left Coast, Canada
Posts: 4,149
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1675 Post(s)
Liked 640 Times in 372 Posts
Originally Posted by NeilGunton View Post
One can say that you're being selective with the truth...

Come on Neil, I reread the posts myself to be clear and indicated exactly where they were. I also said you sounded like a jerk when you suggested stories about disabilities could be used to "Brow Beat" others. I stand by that. They are real people and their stories are real.

I'm frankly tired of this now, it's not about the original points any more but just going in circles, so I'd really like to bow out and get on with my life. Thanks.

Neil
I hope you can live with that response which I feel was a misrepresentation. Other than that one point I will not retort further as I know you want to leave but feel the need to respond, which I respect.

Dale.
Happy Feet is offline  
Old 07-18-16, 07:20 PM
  #205  
350htrr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Canada, PG BC
Posts: 3,787

Bikes: 27 speed ORYX with over 39,000Kms on it and another 14,000KMs with a BionX E-Assist on it

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 974 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 28 Posts
I think most people don't understand the way mechanical advantage/assistance works, how much it actually helps a person do the ride as without it they would fail...

If it takes 100 watts of power to make it up a hill on a fixie, and you can make it up that hill on a fixie, it doesn't apply.

But if you can only put out 50watts continually to make it up that hill, you would not make it up that or any other hill requiring more than 50 watts continual effort, maybe even 100 watts (or more) for those hills.

Thus along came the 3 speed, but oh no that's not enough, then came the 10 speed, but oh no that's not enough, then came the 21 speed, but oh no that's not enough.... Finally along came the 27 speed and 99% of the people who wanted to do that hill could do it... Yay. My point is, it's all "helping" to do something most people just cant do on their own...

Then along comes the E-Assist and it helps some more, but in a different way... Oh no say the purists, that's cheating, can't allow that, it takes away from what real touring is about, 100% human power...

Well I guess it does. But so does touring with a 27 speed compared to touring with a fixie, If you cant do it with a fixie I would suggest that the "real" old time touring people who did it with a fixie, with a "real" bicycle has been degraded to the point where it doesn't matter, everyone is cheating, whether it's a mechanical cheat, or a motor assist cheat.

As you can see there is different ways to cheat/get around things where people just can't do it on their own, even tho they think they are doing it all on their own, they are not, they are only able to do it with the assistance of gears... and... I would wager 99% of the people touring just couldn't do it on a fixie, a "real" un-assisted bicycle, without the assistance of the mechanical advantage of the gearing "helping" them out.

Last edited by 350htrr; 07-18-16 at 07:44 PM. Reason: add stuff
350htrr is offline  
Old 07-18-16, 09:01 PM
  #206  
Doug64
Senior Member
 
Doug64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 5,805
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 884 Post(s)
Liked 196 Times in 127 Posts
Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
I think most people don't understand the way mechanical advantage/assistance works, how much it actually helps a person do the ride as without it they would fail...

If it takes 100 watts of power to make it up a hill on a fixie, and you can make it up that hill on a fixie, it doesn't apply.

But if you can only put out 50watts continually to make it up that hill, you would not make it up that or any other hill requiring more than 50 watts continual effort, maybe even 100 watts (or more) for those hills.

Thus along came the 3 speed, but oh no that's not enough, then came the 10 speed, but oh no that's not enough, then came the 21 speed, but oh no that's not enough.... Finally along came the 27 speed and 99% of the people who wanted to do that hill could do it... Yay. My point is, it's all "helping" to do something most people just cant do on their own...

Then along comes the E-Assist and it helps some more, but in a different way... Oh no say the purists, that's cheating, can't allow that, it takes away from what real touring is about, 100% human power...

Well I guess it does. But so does touring with a 27 speed compared to touring with a fixie, If you cant do it with a fixie I would suggest that the "real" old time touring people who did it with a fixie, with a "real" bicycle has been degraded to the point where it doesn't matter, everyone is cheating, whether it's a mechanical cheat, or a motor assist cheat.

As you can see there is different ways to cheat/get around things where people just can't do it on their own, even tho they think they are doing it all on their own, they are not, they are only able to do it with the assistance of gears... and... I would wager 99% of the people touring just couldn't do it on a fixie, a "real" un-assisted bicycle, without the assistance of the mechanical advantage of the gearing "helping" them out.
I was never a wiz in physics, but my understanding of "work" goes something like this:

It takes the same amount of work to move a given weight over a given distance. It does not matter if you have one gear or a multi geared bike.

It is like loading 100lb of grain. You can load 2, 50 lb sacks(high gears)into the truck or 5, 20 lb sacks(lower geras)into the truck the work is the same, just over a longer period. It allows a person to lift those 5 sacks of grain at a rate and weight that is
More realistic for the average person, and less muscle fatigue.

You can pedal at 40 rpm with a higher gear while exerting more pedal pressure or 90 rpm at a lower gear with less pressure(madeup as an example)to move the bike and rider up the hill. The work is the same.

The way I understand it is the amount of gears really does not matter on this discussion.
Doug64 is offline  
Old 07-18-16, 09:09 PM
  #207  
Happy Feet
Senior Member
 
Happy Feet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Left Coast, Canada
Posts: 4,149
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1675 Post(s)
Liked 640 Times in 372 Posts
I think most people do get it but some, on either side, have firmly held opinions and probably won't change them. I'm not sure it is even the point to try and change those opinions. I think they won't change until (if at all) they are faced with a change in their circumstance. At that point they may have to face a choice between giving up an activity they currently enjoy or reaching for some form of assisting technology, just like people with lower back issues sometimes seek shock absorbing seat posts. They seem rather pointless until you actually need one. That is when their beliefs about what is worth talking about may change (If at all). I can say my experience in this way has been accelerated because of the work I do and the many people I encounter who are trying to regain some form of normality. I am, as they say, sensitized to the topic.

The bigger point is whether a bicycle touring forum will survive if those people are allowed to participate in it or if they will some how corrupt the meaning or intent of the forum. I don't see that happening but that is the point to consider. Is the shift too great, are people unable to understand the differences, will current topics be marginalized due to the influx of new topics... Those sorts of issues.

We just had a rather spirited debate here by two members who hold vastly differing views on the subject and, while it did get heated at times, both have survived and the forum is still intact. I suspect the same thing will happen if the occasional E bike touring topic shows up and is allowed to run its natural course without people trying to stamp it out like a wildfire. I believe the stamping will do more damage than the topic itself.

It will be new, novel, attract attention for a while, just like the UL topic did last winter, and then it will fade into the vast diaspora of bicycle touring topics.

That's just my opinion of course.

Would you believe that while I am not considering an E bike at the moment I have been putting a great deal of thought into building/buying/fundraising for a rickshaw type bike so I can start a therapeutic bicycling program for the seniors in my facility. So many of them respond positively when I discuss cycling and there is a beautiful lake with cycling paths right next door. If I had been more on the ball I would have attached that financial goal to my upcoming tour as people have really tried to donate to it and I tell them I am not fundraising and to donate to the Alzheimer Society. If I am still there I will probably do it next year.

Nothing to do with cycle touring but I thought it was funny that there are several ways people can be "assisted" in cycling.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 07-18-16 at 09:26 PM.
Happy Feet is offline  
Old 07-18-16, 10:00 PM
  #208  
350htrr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Canada, PG BC
Posts: 3,787

Bikes: 27 speed ORYX with over 39,000Kms on it and another 14,000KMs with a BionX E-Assist on it

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 974 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 28 Posts
Originally Posted by Doug64 View Post
I was never a wiz in physics, but my understanding of "work" goes something like this:

It takes the same amount of work to move a given weight over a given distance. It does not matter if you have one gear or a multi geared bike.

It is like loading 100lb of grain. You can load 2, 50 lb sacks(high gears)into the truck or 5, 20 lb sacks(lower geras)into the truck the work is the same, just over a longer period. It allows a person to lift those 5 sacks of grain at a rate and weight that is
More realistic for the average person, and less muscle fatigue.

You can pedal at 40 rpm with a higher gear while exerting more pedal pressure or 90 rpm at a lower gear with less pressure(madeup as an example)to move the bike and rider up the hill. The work is the same.

The way I understand it is the amount of gears really does not matter on this discussion.
My point is, that gearing is assistance, and yes it is different than a motor, but assistance none the less. Without the "assistance" mechanical advantage of the gearing, most people wouldn't be able to tour on a fixie, as they wouldn't be able to make it up most hills... No? So it's not really much different than an assistance from a motor, If you want to compare it to a fixie with no gears being the baseline as what can be done by human effort only, without any kind of "assistance"...
350htrr is offline  
Old 07-18-16, 10:40 PM
  #209  
saddlesores
Senior Member
 
saddlesores's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bangkok...and....Hainan
Posts: 3,153

Bikes: inferior steel....and....noodly aluminium

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 808 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 72 Times in 54 Posts
Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
My point is, that gearing is assistance, and yes it is different than a motor, but assistance none the less. Without the "assistance" mechanical advantage of the gearing, most people wouldn't be able to tour on a fixie, as they wouldn't be able to make it up most hills... No? So it's not really much different than an assistance from a motor, If you want to compare it to a fixie with no gears being the baseline as what can be done by human effort only, without any kind of "assistance"...
and here is the slope of slippers.....

cgoab has a set policy. human powered only. fixies or 3-speeds, or that
wacky japanese contraption with the 5-speed BB, the 5-speed rear, the
four ring crank and 9-speed derailler setup.....300 gears? it's all good,
up to a point. human powered only. no motor assist.

we're going to allow "assistance" here, but how are we going to define
it? surely NOT the EU standard, not if the majority of the forum members
are 'merkans! we'll have to use the legal standard applicable to the
members, which means 50+ different state, county, district, territory,
protectorate, etc., legal definitions.

will we be democratic and take a vote? does that mean
the definition of assistance will change every couple years as the
technology advances? are we going to exclude the really cool awesome
stuff from the tech labs in silicone valley? or the even cooler and
awesomer stuff mashed up by hillbillies in arkansas? just who do
we get to exclude?
saddlesores is offline  
Old 07-18-16, 10:59 PM
  #210  
shipwreck
Senior Member
 
shipwreck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,475
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 139 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Since Neil seemed so taken with the Dickhead statement, I thought I should clarify what I thought was inferred, that someone actually giving another person grief over riding an ebike, either in the analog world or online, could be considered one. I was not referring simply having an opinion on whether or not its considered bicycle touring. I could give a wet slap about that, and did not mean to call anyone on this thread a name. I simply always wonder how one acts in the flesh compared to online. Would anyone in either camp get up in someones grill about this issue in person? If you are touring on an electric assist bicycle your not going to sneer at someone who takes longer up the hill or rides shorter days, and if you are traveling on a non motorized bicycle and run into an ebiker touring, odds on your not going to lecture them about the Purity of the Turf. At least you shouldn't...
shipwreck is offline  
Old 07-19-16, 12:41 AM
  #211  
Caretaker
Heretic
 
Caretaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 2,169

Bikes: Specialized Sirrus, Giant OCR3, Giant CRS3

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1405 Post(s)
Liked 180 Times in 135 Posts
Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
My point is, that gearing is assistance, and yes it is different than a motor, but assistance none the less. Without the "assistance" mechanical advantage of the gearing, most people wouldn't be able to tour on a fixie, as they wouldn't be able to make it up most hills... No? So it's not really much different than an assistance from a motor, If you want to compare it to a fixie with no gears being the baseline as what can be done by human effort only, without any kind of "assistance"...
I've been known to weave from one side of the road to the other even on my lowest gear. Think I once or twice turned down hill momentarily to build up momentum.

I found it an 'assistance' at the time.

Sorry your spurious argument doesn't cut any ice with me.
Caretaker is offline  
Old 07-19-16, 06:13 AM
  #212  
Doug64
Senior Member
 
Doug64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 5,805
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 884 Post(s)
Liked 196 Times in 127 Posts
Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
My point is, that gearing is assistance, and yes it is different than a motor, but assistance none the less. Without the "assistance" mechanical advantage of the gearing, most people wouldn't be able to tour on a fixie, as they wouldn't be able to make it up most hills... No? So it's not really much different than an assistance from a motor, If you want to compare it to a fixie with no gears being the baseline as what can be done by human effort only, without any kind of "assistance"...
A fixie can be geared to climb hills easily.
Doug64 is offline  
Old 07-19-16, 06:49 AM
  #213  
boomhauer
Senior Member
 
boomhauer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 713
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 199 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
My point is, that gearing is assistance, and yes it is different than a motor, but assistance none the less. Without the "assistance" mechanical advantage of the gearing, most people wouldn't be able to tour on a fixie, as they wouldn't be able to make it up most hills... No? So it's not really much different than an assistance from a motor, If you want to compare it to a fixie with no gears being the baseline as what can be done by human effort only, without any kind of "assistance"...
So with appropriate gearing you can get the same "assistance" as a motor? So why get a motor? therefore someone claiming to be disabled needing a motorized "assistance" is a fraud according to your argument .
boomhauer is offline  
Old 07-19-16, 07:19 AM
  #214  
indyfabz
Senior Member
 
indyfabz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 26,890
Mentioned: 192 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11357 Post(s)
Liked 2,982 Times in 1,664 Posts
Along with change, this thread is a constant in the universe.
indyfabz is offline  
Old 07-19-16, 08:08 AM
  #215  
jefnvk
Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Metro Detroit/AA
Posts: 8,209

Bikes: 2016 Novara Mazama

Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3631 Post(s)
Liked 66 Times in 39 Posts
Originally Posted by Doug64 View Post
"Bicycle" means a device having any number of wheels upon which a person sits astride and which is propelled solely by human muscular power through the use of pedals; (« bicyclette »)."
Guess we need a recumbent touring subforum then, because Manitoba would not consider them bicycles
jefnvk is offline  
Old 07-19-16, 08:38 AM
  #216  
Happy Feet
Senior Member
 
Happy Feet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Left Coast, Canada
Posts: 4,149
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1675 Post(s)
Liked 640 Times in 372 Posts
Spurious or fraud are probably not the right terms to use if you think the reasoning is flawed in a discussion. These usually have a negative connotation that there is some sort of deceptive motivation at play.

The disconnect is what is assumed by assistance.

With gearing there are two types of power input. Over all energy and intensity.

One might argue that regardless of single speed or multi gear the over all input is the same (I don't know for sure) ie. To cover X distance up a hill you burn Y calories. Whether you burn them by spinning for a hour in a granny gear or cranking for 15 minutes on a single speed is not the point as far as total calories used.

However, what changes is the intensity. You need less intensity with multi gears than with a single speed (assuming normal gear ratios and not some oddball gear). That is why multi gears are used and we all know this. So many threads about what cassettes to use for touring, whether to go double or triple crank, what size granny gear. All designed to reduce the intensity of pedaling for loaded touring (most of the time to save our aging knees).

People with impairments may need assistance with both forms of input power. They may not be able to generate the intensity needed and/or they may not be able to sustain the total output. The poster back a few pages who lost 1/3 of his heart muscle is a perfect example of where this may occur. Online, post# 150 for reference.

Perhaps not fully understood, but not spurious or a fraud.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 07-19-16 at 08:50 AM.
Happy Feet is offline  
Old 07-19-16, 08:52 AM
  #217  
Caretaker
Heretic
 
Caretaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 2,169

Bikes: Specialized Sirrus, Giant OCR3, Giant CRS3

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1405 Post(s)
Liked 180 Times in 135 Posts
I hope people are allowed post about their Ebike touring, it'll give me an opportunity to ask them about their disability.
Caretaker is offline  
Old 07-19-16, 09:33 AM
  #218  
jefnvk
Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Metro Detroit/AA
Posts: 8,209

Bikes: 2016 Novara Mazama

Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3631 Post(s)
Liked 66 Times in 39 Posts
Originally Posted by Caretaker View Post
I hope people are allowed post about their Ebike touring, it'll give me an opportunity to ask them about their disability.
Pro tip: life is far more enjoyable when you go out and enjoy your life, rather than sitting around criticizing others for doing the same.
jefnvk is offline  
Old 07-19-16, 10:12 AM
  #219  
onbike 1939
Senior Member
 
onbike 1939's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Fife Scotland
Posts: 2,053

Bikes: Airnimal Chameleon; Ellis Briggs; Moulton TSR27 Moulton Esprit

Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2085 Post(s)
Liked 232 Times in 175 Posts
Originally Posted by Caretaker View Post
I've been known to weave from one side of the road to the other even on my lowest gear. Think I once or twice turned down hill momentarily to build up momentum.

I found it an 'assistance' at the time.

Sorry your spurious argument doesn't cut any ice with me.


We know this.....but if you're going to introduce your drinking habits into this thread then that's only going to complicate things even further.
__________________
"Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and writing an exact man". Francis Bacon
onbike 1939 is offline  
Old 07-19-16, 10:15 AM
  #220  
onbike 1939
Senior Member
 
onbike 1939's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Fife Scotland
Posts: 2,053

Bikes: Airnimal Chameleon; Ellis Briggs; Moulton TSR27 Moulton Esprit

Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2085 Post(s)
Liked 232 Times in 175 Posts
Originally Posted by Caretaker View Post
I hope people are allowed post about their Ebike touring, it'll give me an opportunity to ask them about their disability.



Big mistake.....once started I'll never stop.
__________________
"Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and writing an exact man". Francis Bacon
onbike 1939 is offline  
Old 07-19-16, 10:28 AM
  #221  
350htrr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Canada, PG BC
Posts: 3,787

Bikes: 27 speed ORYX with over 39,000Kms on it and another 14,000KMs with a BionX E-Assist on it

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 974 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 28 Posts
Having slept on this assistance issue, I have decided that there is enough of a difference in my mind and will say E-Touring should be discussed in the E-Bike forum...

The slippery slope argument also is a valid argument in my mind too for keeping E-Bike stuff in the E-Bike forum...

Those other arguments like just get off your butt, nobody should really need to ride an E-Bike,, you are lazy, you aren't disabled... are all strawman argument in my book...
350htrr is offline  
Old 07-19-16, 10:36 AM
  #222  
Caretaker
Heretic
 
Caretaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 2,169

Bikes: Specialized Sirrus, Giant OCR3, Giant CRS3

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1405 Post(s)
Liked 180 Times in 135 Posts
Originally Posted by onbike 1939 View Post
We know this.....but if you're going to introduce your drinking habits into this thread then that's only going to complicate things even further.
I was anticipating this jibe, what took you so long?

Originally Posted by onbike 1939 View Post
Big mistake.....once started I'll never stop.
I know but I'll plead incontinence and you'll have to shout through the door.
Caretaker is offline  
Old 07-19-16, 01:09 PM
  #223  
Robert C
Senior Member
 
Robert C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 2,158

Bikes: This list got too long: several ‘bents, an urban utility e-bike, and a dahon D7 that my daughter has absconded with.

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 323 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
Having slept on this assistance issue, I have decided that there is enough of a difference in my mind and will say E-Touring should be discussed in the E-Bike forum...

The slippery slope argument also is a valid argument in my mind too for keeping E-Bike stuff in the E-Bike forum...

Those other arguments like just get off your butt, nobody should really need to ride an E-Bike,, you are lazy, you aren't disabled... are all strawman argument in my book...
I have been of the opinion that all of these recent e-bike discussions, that have been posted in the touring sub-forum, should have been moved to the e-bike sub-forum. However, it isn't my decision.

Things related to touring equipment e.g. "what's the best tent . . . " can easily be discussed without any specific reference to e-bikes. Questions related to things like routing may require a direct reference; but if possible, should be avoided. The only place where it may be necessary to make references to an e-bike is in actual trip reports. However, if that is done, expect the "just drive a car" contingent to come out in force.
Robert C is offline  
Old 07-19-16, 04:44 PM
  #224  
alan s 
Senior Member
 
alan s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 6,913
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1464 Post(s)
Liked 147 Times in 103 Posts
Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
Having slept on this assistance issue, I have decided that there is enough of a difference in my mind and will say E-Touring should be discussed in the E-Bike forum...

The slippery slope argument also is a valid argument in my mind too for keeping E-Bike stuff in the E-Bike forum...

Those other arguments like just get off your butt, nobody should really need to ride an E-Bike,, you are lazy, you aren't disabled... are all strawman argument in my book...
Glad to see so many new arguments advanced in the last week. While y'all are still bickering, I'm having an awesome bike tour in Switzerland. So far, I have come across one person touring on an e-bike. She called herself "lazy." No kidding. Not only was she riding an e-bike, but she was drafting her husband who was on an old fashioned non-motorized bike. We crossed paths a while later, and she said he's done for the day. She looked like she barely broke into a sweat. I was going to suggest they switch bikes for a while, but was already on my way by then.
alan s is offline  
Old 07-19-16, 05:43 PM
  #225  
Caretaker
Heretic
 
Caretaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 2,169

Bikes: Specialized Sirrus, Giant OCR3, Giant CRS3

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1405 Post(s)
Liked 180 Times in 135 Posts
I think the point is this Ebiker was calling herself 'lazy' but of course that doesn't fit the 'oppressed minority' narrative being peddled by some.
Caretaker is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.