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What can the E-assist option bring for bicycle touring.

Old 07-25-16, 02:54 PM
  #376  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
To you, perhaps. To me, they are something that someone else uses, that I have no real desire to use, but which affect me in ABSOLUTELY NO WAY. Hardly disruptive or worrysome, that in some slippery slope future I will be forced into them and given no choice but to ride the exclusively.



And when I am in an established bicycle race with rules detailing allowable equipment, I will agree they are cheating and not allowable. Then again, likely so are a lot of things you may find on touring bikes, like disc brakes. When someone is spending their vacation in a manner they choose, that I am in no direct competition with or have really any interaction at all, they aren't "cheating" because there are no rules to follow. No different than if I decided I wanted my doctor to get me on EPO to pound out my after work bar runs a bit faster, it is not illegal until I decide to enter a race which is under the control of a sanctioning body that deems it illegal.
Maybe this LAW will wake you up!

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Old 07-25-16, 02:56 PM
  #377  
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Originally Posted by NeilGunton View Post
Ok, so then by your logic it would be fine for people to discuss motorhomes, kayaking, hiking, big game hunting, deep sea fishing, knitting, or any other activity that people might choose to do on their vacation. Because it doesn't affect you if I want to talk on this forum about bungee jumping, does it? Just ignore it.

See where that line of reasoning gets you?

Topics are important, as are definitions of topics. Should the topic of "bicycle touring" include bikes with motors? I think not, and moreover I think it matters.

Neil
ebikes are most definitely allowed to be discussed on these forums, unlike those other things, and people on ebikes do go on tours, therefore there really shouldn't be any problem.

But, if we want to say motorhomes aren't allowed, why do we allow discussions on tents and sleeping bags? That seems counterproductive to keeping the noise down, you should just go to a camping forum. After all, one can tour without a tent and cookware, they are not integral to the activity. Get them over to camping forums where those questions belong.
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Old 07-25-16, 03:03 PM
  #378  
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
Maybe this LAW will wake you up!
If I were subject to the City of Toronto's laws, sure. I'm not. There has been plenty of other examples tossed around where they are specifically allowed on cycle paths. Whose anecdotal evidence wins?
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Old 07-25-16, 03:13 PM
  #379  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
And if you did a coast to coast tour, but hopped on a train for the Rockies, what would you call that?
Well, personally, I would call it a failure, because I value conquering hills as being an essential part of the bicycle touring experience. I don't like stopping on hills, let alone skipping them. But that's just me. If someone else is doing a bicycle tour, and chooses to skip a certain section for whatever reason, then that's their prerogative. The important thing is that they are doing the rest of their tour on the BICYCLE.

You could always construct gray area arguments, e.g. what if someone does a bicycle tour where 50% of the distance is done via train. I say, whatever. It's a bicycle tour if the portions you are doing as the "tour" are on a bicycle. It's really up to the individual to say where that line is, because it's completely subjective.

It's not subjective whether or not your bicycle has a motor on it. If it does, then that's not a bicycle tour. Pretty simple, sorry you're having trouble understanding. Or, more likely, you understand perfectly well, but think you've latched onto an argument that throws everything into doubt. Ok, I guess you're free to pursue that line if you want to, but you know and I know that you're being disingenuous. It's perfectly obvious what the difference is between using a bike with no motor, and one that has a motor. It makes no difference what other modes of transport you use to get to/from the tour, or if you skip sections, as long as the main body of touring that you call the "bicycle tour" is on an actual bicycle.

Technology has already progressed well past that point. We've had motorcycles for a hundred years, and the lowly pedal bike has yet to disappear. I'm not worried that it is going away anytime soon, at least not due to ebikes.
Who said anything about bicycles going away? The argument is about whether or not motorized transport belongs on this forum.

To me, the amount of time I spend getting worried about what people on ebikes call their touring is nil. What I do care about is people calling them out, while being fine with spending their own bike tour on a train for the parts they won't accomplish under their own power.
Ok, so you don't care what gets discussed on this forum. Some of us do. There's the rub.

Again, to you. I click on dozens of threads a day over this and other forums that I glance at, see that it interests me in no way, and move on. Until the site institutes some sort of limit on the number of threads that can be going at any one time, it does not decrease the usefulness of any other thread that may be going. Noise ratio? Again, it takes literally seconds to know what is useful or interesting and what is not. For someone wasting time to decrease the usefulness of a thread they had nothing constructive to add to, increasing the noise ratio of the good information that could have been shared, it is a bit of a silly argument.
According to your argument here, then, spam is not a problem at all. And yet... it is. It's almost as if reality doesn't match up with the narrative you're trying to spin here.

My touring bike is a C&V. Should I only talk about it there?
I don't know, is it a bicycle? If so, then great - talk away. If it has a motor, then take it to the e-bike forum, it's there specifically for you.

Or, perhaps, does it make MUCH more sense for me to ask questions about racks, bags, packing suggestions, where to stealth camp, how to carry enough water, here?
Sure, those are all touring topics. What's your point?

You are all acting as if ebikes are some sort of magical machine that makes all of the touring aspects go away. The difference between grandma on an ebike and Froome on his bike is that he is still going faster and farther most days. It isn't jumping on a Gold Wing for a 400 mile day on the interstate, it is still effectively the same dang thing when all is considered.
Ah, this "it's all the same" argument again. You see, it really isn't. Putting a motor on the bike changes the equation immediately. It's no longer a bicycle, it's a motorized vehicle, which isn't what "bicycle touring" is supposed to be about.

Neil
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Old 07-25-16, 03:24 PM
  #380  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
ebikes are most definitely allowed to be discussed on these forums, unlike those other things, and people on ebikes do go on tours, therefore there really shouldn't be any problem.
Then why do you think you are seeing such push-back whenever the subject of e-bikes comes up here? I suggest it is because many cyclists object at a visceral level to having motorized transport intrude into this space, and moreover being told by people like yourself that we should just get over it, because "it's all the same".

But, if we want to say motorhomes aren't allowed, why do we allow discussions on tents and sleeping bags?
Because any reasonable person would see in an instant that tents and sleeping bags are a valid part of the bicycle touring experience, and deserve to be discussed here.

That seems counterproductive to keeping the noise down, you should just go to a camping forum. After all, one can tour without a tent and cookware, they are not integral to the activity. Get them over to camping forums where those questions belong.
Conflating tents and stoves with e-bikes is specious at best. Nobody in the history of bicycle touring has ever argued that discussion of tents and camping is somehow off-topic. With e-bikes, on the other hand, the problem is pretty obvious - it's the motor, bicycles aren't supposed to have them. It's one of the basic characteristics of what makes a bicycle a bicycle. No motor.

Neil

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Old 07-25-16, 03:30 PM
  #381  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
If I were subject to the City of Toronto's laws, sure. I'm not. There has been plenty of other examples tossed around where they are specifically allowed on cycle paths. Whose anecdotal evidence wins?
This throws into stark relief the problem with "arbitrary lines in the sand". If we choose the "legal definition" of what constitures an "e-bike", and where they are allowed to go, then there will be a myriad of differing jurisdictions and rulings on all that. What do you follow in order to determine what is acceptable here? Because clearly full-blown motorcycles are not ok, but you say e-bikes are, so by what legal definition? There are many, and it'll be constantly changing underneath your feet. All the way down that slippery slope, as time passes and they get better and better, or as you say that up to x watts is ok, but then someone argues that they NEED x+1 watts because of some disability, so you have to include them, and so it goes on and on and on until you basically are including all motorized bikes. And that is the reason why I'm saying it would be wiser to just draw the line now at "no motors", at least for forums that are ostensibly dedicated to matters related to bicycles, as this one is.
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Old 07-25-16, 03:32 PM
  #382  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
If I were subject to the City of Toronto's laws, sure. I'm not. There has been plenty of other examples tossed around where they are specifically allowed on cycle paths. Whose anecdotal evidence wins?
The point is: eBikes are motorbikes NOT bicycles. The world has plenty of infrastructure for motorized vehicles. Enjoy your motorized world. Hit the road AND stop
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Old 07-25-16, 06:23 PM
  #383  
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Originally Posted by Caretaker View Post
Who's calling touring on an E-Bike 'cheating', certainly not me.

Edit: Sorry, yeah see NG's 'feels like cheating' reference. Not an opinion I share. Using an E-Bike to tour isn't 'cheating' just not 'cycle touring', it's E-bike touring.
I've got a convert, I've got a convert... Finally someone in the other camp seems to understand, as long as you say E-Bike touring it's E-Bike touring not bicycle touring and not cheating at bicycle touring...
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Old 07-25-16, 06:43 PM
  #384  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
as long as you say E-Bike touring it's E-Bike touring not bicycle touring
Yep! That's what I've been saying all along. This is a bicycle touring forum. You need to find and/or make a new group/forum that meets the needs the eBike touring crowd(?). Se ya and enjoy!
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Old 07-25-16, 07:03 PM
  #385  
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
Yep! That's what I've been saying all along. This is a bicycle touring forum. You need to find and/or make a new group/forum that meets the needs the eBike touring crowd(?). Se ya and enjoy!
But there is no E-Bike touring forum, the E-bike forum is a non-starter for touring info... Thus, the bicycle touring forum seems the next best place to ask and get answers for all kinds/type of bicycle touring... So I really don't see a problem with E-Bike using tourers asking touring help on the bicycle touring site. As long as everyone understand the type of touring being done, it should not be the "problem" it seems to be...
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Old 07-25-16, 07:27 PM
  #386  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
But there is no E-Bike touring forum, the E-bike forum is a non-starter for touring info... Thus, the bicycle touring forum seems the next best place to ask and get answers for all kinds/type of bicycle touring... So I really don't see a problem with E-Bike using tourers asking touring help on the bicycle touring site. As long as everyone understand the type of touring being done, it should not be the "problem" it seems to be...
eBike forum is about eBike stuff --> MOTORS, BATTERIES, CHARGERS.

You can get lots of info about camping equipment and from reading the bicycle touring forum. Plenty of cross-over, I assume. I've got no problem with that.
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Old 07-25-16, 07:27 PM
  #387  
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Originally Posted by NeilGunton View Post
Well, personally, I would call it a failure, because I value conquering hills as being an essential part of the bicycle touring experience. I don't like stopping on hills, let alone skipping them. But that's just me. If someone else is doing a bicycle tour, and chooses to skip a certain section for whatever reason, then that's their prerogative. The important thing is that they are doing the rest of their tour on the BICYCLE.

You could always construct gray area arguments, e.g. what if someone does a bicycle tour where 50% of the distance is done via train. I say, whatever. It's a bicycle tour if the portions you are doing as the "tour" are on a bicycle. It's really up to the individual to say where that line is, because it's completely subjective.
If you think ebikes can't say they are bike touring, but putting your bike on a train is fine, we are so far apart that there is no point in continuing this. It is utterly idiotic to think that using a train is a natural part of touring, but getting an assist from a motor is verboten, and sounds to me as if you want the definition to be exactly what you want it to be, and nothing else.

Originally Posted by NeilGunton View Post
Then why do you think you are seeing such push-back whenever the subject of e-bikes comes up here? I suggest it is because many cyclists object at a visceral level to having motorized transport intrude into this space, and moreover being told by people like yourself that we should just get over it, because "it's all the same".
I see the same push back every time a thread comes up about Bikes Direct bikes, and got the same push back when I was stupid enough to ask about whether friction shifters were really that bad on RBR. All it means is the forums are full of closed minded folks who cannot conceive anything but what they know, and are inexplicably annoyed by someone else doing something that doesn't affect them in any way.

Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
The point is: eBikes are motorbikes NOT bicycles. The world has plenty of infrastructure for motorized vehicles. Enjoy your motorized world. Hit the road AND stop
The point is, by many definitions, they are, whether you accept it or not. By many others, they admittedly are not. What is uttely confounding is that you apparently do see ebikes as more akin to an 1100cc Harley than the bike built on the exact same frame without a little electric motor. If that is the logic you are truly using, it is rather pointless to continue with you, too. Live in your macho world, to be honest I don't think the ebike touring community gives two craps that you hate what they call their activity.

As to the beating a dead horse, aren't you doing the same?
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Old 07-25-16, 07:38 PM
  #388  
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
eBike forum is about eBike stuff --> MOTORS, BATTERIES, CHARGERS.

You can get lots of info about camping equipment and from reading the bicycle touring forum. Plenty of cross-over, I assume. I've got no problem with that.
WOW, Really.? I thought this whole thread being here on the touring forum was a problem for you, and a few others...
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Old 07-25-16, 08:06 PM
  #389  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
WOW, Really.? I thought this whole thread being here on the touring forum was a problem for you, and a few others...
Yes it's became a problem when I saw this:


Plus when posters claimed eBikes are bicycles and should be classified as such. That's my problem. eBikes are motorbikes not bicycles.

Specified eBike issues need to relegated to the eBike forum not the bicycle touring forum.
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Old 07-25-16, 08:55 PM
  #390  
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In a case of converging conversations.

Just talked to a friend that actually owns an e bike, the kit of which was purchased from this guy Varna Bicycles and Tricycles. Interesting person who is heavily invested in helping people with disabilities regain mobility. His story is on the site.

When he's not out helping others or setting world HPV records I bet he doesn't care too much if someone considers his products bicycles or not.

Neat guy that I would love to share a coffee with while touring the Gulf Islands next time I'm out that way as I now will have an introduction
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Old 07-25-16, 09:15 PM
  #391  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
If you think ebikes can't say they are bike touring, but putting your bike on a train is fine, we are so far apart that there is no point in continuing this. It is utterly idiotic to think that using a train is a natural part of touring.....
some riders will use buses/trains to skip boring sections. others will fly from city
to city....and do a circuit of the area then move to next location. point is they
are riding 100% under their own power during the tour.

you mean if i fly nyc to salt lake, then ride my bicycle from salt lake to dallas,
then fly back to nyc........i did NOT just do a salt lake to dallas cycle tour?

would you say taking a ferry across a river counts as "assistance" so it's no longer
a bicycle tour? that it's the equivalent of adding an assist motor?

am i allowed to take my bike in the elevator to the 5th floor of the hotel, or do
i need to ride up-down the stairs to count as completing the tour under my
own power?

**************

motorcycle touring is touring on a motorcycle.
ebike touring is touring on an ebike.
cycle touring is touring on a bike.

motorbikes aren't ebikes aren't bicycles.

legal definitions can be changed to whatever you want. i'm sure
if shimano decides to push their latte grinding e-bike component
group as the future of cycling, they have the cash to convince
the lawmakers to re-write the laws to their benefit.

neil has a good set of rules. human power only. no gray areas.
(one or two mentions over ten years and 10000 articles is insignificant)
his site is geared more to trip reports and travel blogs.

this here site is for discussing cycle touring. ebike touring is close
enough, there's enough overlap where the two can get co-exist, so
long as specific ebike questions go in the more appropriate ebike
subforum. (hmmm....but then what of threads about lighting and
gps and recharging laptops.....should maybe go in e-gadgets forum?)

Last edited by saddlesores; 07-25-16 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 07-25-16, 10:55 PM
  #392  
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Originally Posted by saddlesores View Post
some riders will use buses/trains to skip boring sections. ... point is they
are riding 100% under their own power during the tour.
How, exactly, is using a bus/train to skip a boring section riding 100% under their own power? It is skipping parts of the tour they don't want to do under their own power.

would you say taking a ferry across a river counts as "assistance" so it's no longer
a bicycle tour? that it's the equivalent of adding an assist motor?
I really don't care how one does their tour, or what aids they use. I'll sit down and enjoy their stories all the same. It is THEIR tour. I had no problem personally using some trains and ferries and not caring. I just find it hypocritical that people bash on others for the aids they choose to use, while using their own aids and coming up with any number of justifications as to why their choices are OK but others should be condemned.

this here site is for discussing cycle touring. ebike touring is close
enough, there's enough overlap where the two can get co-exist, so
long as specific ebike questions go in the more appropriate ebike
subforum. (hmmm....but then what of threads about lighting and
gps and recharging laptops.....should maybe go in e-gadgets forum?)
I agree 100%. As I mentioned, I have a C&V touring bike, when I had a question getting a 30 year old Suntour derailleur working with a 25 year old Helicomatic wheel, I put it in the C&V, not here. When I suspected it was gearing that was making it move not as fast as my other bikes, it went into General (I think). When I was looking for routes and racks, I asked here. As with anything, posters should use common sense, and if that fails, threads get moved all the time. There is nothing fundamentally different about an ebike frame that means the advice one would be asking about is any different than a regular bike, and it would certainly be ridiculous to ask for advice on a motorcycle forum.

Sorry if I'm too inclusive and accepting for everyone here. I've just never understood how anyone gets so worked up about things that do not affect them further than accidentally opening a thread about an ebike and not getting those couple seconds of their life back.

In any case, I know enough guys that tour on motorcycles to know they've already claimed bike touring/riding for themselves, and probably would argue we need to call it "pedal bike touring"
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Old 07-25-16, 11:47 PM
  #393  
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So, how about if someone said they were doing a bicycle tour across the US to raise awareness for their cause. They received donations from people who supported the cause and the idea of doing something difficult to raise awareness. Only later they said "by the way, it would be on a motor-powered bicycle." ("Sorry, forgot to mention that small detail, but I will be pedaling some.") I think there would be a lot of upset supporters who felt duped.
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Old 07-26-16, 12:08 AM
  #394  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
How, exactly, is using a bus/train to skip a boring section riding 100% under their own power? It is skipping parts of the tour they don't want to do under their own power.
It is commonly understood by bicycle tourists that you can take alternative transport to skip sections that you don't want to ride for whatever reason - e.g. road works, dangerous traffic, time constraints, or just that it's boring and you want to get past it. This is acceptable for anything you are calling a "bicycle tour", but it is also an unspoken understanding (unspoken because up to now it was just completely obvious) that the bits of the tour that you ARE riding are done under your own power, on a bicycle. Not another motorized vehicle.

So, what that means is that the exceptions are ok by other means - the non-cycling bits. But the actual riding bits are via bicycle (i.e. self-powered, no motor etc), otherwise it's not considered a bicycle tour.

Not to argue from authority, but I am someone who has been having to consider "what is a bicycle tour" on a daily basis for the last 16 years, running the largest bicycle touring website out there, at least in terms of content (the forums here on bikeforums are almost certainly more active than those on crazyguyonabike, but the 12k+ journals are what require classification and filtering by me on a daily basis). What I'm getting at is that I've been required to think deep and hard about "what is a bicycle tour" for a LONG time. You are fully entitled to disagree with me, and I accept that you have a position that boils down to "it's no big deal, just include everybody", but from my viewpoint it is quite important to nail down exactly what a "bicycle tour" really is (and isn't). The way I (and, I think, most others) see it is that interludes by train etc are fine, because they are a natural part of any tour and something that nobody in their right mind quibbles with (unless the interludes start to dominate, in which case the journal author may get a gentle email from me). Motorized bikes are not fine, because it really changes the whole game. Once you add motors into the equation as being "ok", then it really opens up a can of worms that will be hard to put limits on down the road, when e-bikes have developed into much more capable machines than they are today. The problem is, it'll most likely be gradual, incremental improvements in the motor power and battery capacity, so there will probably be no obvious place where you can say "ok, this is getting silly, it's no longer really about bicycle touring, we should really distinguish between self-powered and e-bikes", which is what I'm trying to be prescient about here, ahead of time. I think I'm right, you don't think so, I guess history will prove who's on the mark. I'm betting on technology constantly getting better, which is a pretty safe bet, unless The End Of The World As We Know It comes sooner than expected, in which case I doubt any of us will be concerned about online forums. We'll be too busy running and screaming and bartering for ammunition, but that's for another discussion.

I really don't care how one does their tour, or what aids they use. I'll sit down and enjoy their stories all the same. It is THEIR tour. I had no problem personally using some trains and ferries and not caring. I just find it hypocritical that people bash on others for the aids they choose to use, while using their own aids and coming up with any number of justifications as to why their choices are OK but others should be condemned.
The problem with your argument here is that you are conflating tour interludes with the tour itself. Interludes are the bits in between the touring - e.g. getting to or from the starting or end point by train or whatever, or skipping ahead to the next stage by bus in order to make a deadline or whatever. Those are interludes, everybody does it and it's fine, and it doesn't invalidate the actual touring you're doing. The tour itself is what you are doing on the bike, and it's generally assumed that on a bicycle tour, it's self powered. This is not bashing or hypocritical, it's a simple matter of definitions. It's been commonly understood for, well, ever, that one of the defining characteristics of a bicycle is that it doesn't have a motor.

For example, the definition of bicycle by Merriam Webster: Bicycle | Definition of Bicycle by Merriam-Webster

"a 2-wheeled vehicle that a person rides by pushing on foot pedals"

Or from the Oxford Dictionary: bicycle: definition of bicycle in Oxford dictionary (American English) (US)

"A vehicle composed of two wheels held in a frame one behind the other, propelled by pedals and steered with handlebars attached to the front wheel"

See, all it talks about is "propelled by pedals". No mention of motors. It has been assumed for many decades that the defining characteristic is that the rider does all the work. Slap a motor on there and you have something else.

I can understand that some people are getting annoyed by talk that includes words like "lazy" and "HTFU". I think this arises from a certain perception that many times, e-bikes are used by able-bodied people who could ride a regular bicycle, but just choose not to because they don't feel like putting the effort in. There are, of course, other riders who are using an e-bike because of some disability. This creates a very muddy debate, because people are just talking past each other from different perspectives. To be clear: Of course e-bikes are a perfectly valid way to get around, if you choose to ride that way or are compelled to by your physical limitations. But you need to understand that just arguing from a position of "have some empathy, let's include everybody, why should you care etc" is never going to get rid of the lingering dissonance that having a motor on the bicycle generates for many cyclists. Also, this is not an existential debate (should e-bikes exist, and if they do, should anybody ride one), but rather one of classification (should e-bike discussions be conducted over on the e-bike forum, or is it ok to include them here). Conflating the existential arguments with the categorization debate just results in people talking past each other without really getting anywhere, since the other person isn't even on the same page. Very frustrating, obviously. My perspective is that we gather here supposedly under a commonly understood umbrella - bicycle touring. Up to now it has been pretty simple and universally understood what that means. Now we have some people coming in and trying to change that definition, and some of us don't like it. So we argue, and maybe something will come out of the arguments, maybe not. Maybe we just keep going around in circles restating our own filtered viewpoint and ignoring what the other person says, I don't know. But it's a debate that is happening, and one that is going to keep happening, I think, as long as people try to push motors on bicycles as being exactly the same as traditional bicycles.

There is nothing fundamentally different about an ebike frame that means the advice one would be asking about is any different than a regular bike, and it would certainly be ridiculous to ask for advice on a motorcycle forum.
I agree, e-bikes are a different form of motorized bike from "motorcycle". There is a commonly understood meaning for "motorcycle", just as there is one for "bicycle". E-bikes are their own thing, and certainly deserve their own forum, which they have. Everybody can be happy if we keep the e-bike discussions to the e-bike forum, and the bicycle touring discussions here. Aspects of touring that are common (camping etc) can by all means be discussed here without rancor, since there really is no reason to make that "about" the e-bike if that's what you are using.

Sorry if I'm too inclusive and accepting for everyone here. I've just never understood how anyone gets so worked up about things that do not affect them further than accidentally opening a thread about an ebike and not getting those couple seconds of their life back.
It's already been explained multiple times that bringing motorized discussions into a bicycle forum is always going to irritate some people who don't want discussions about motorized transport intruding into this space. This thread is a witness to that. Maybe you don't mind if the signal to noise ratio is affected by off-topic discussion that really should be conducted elsewhere, but some people believe that a "bicycle touring" forum should be reserved for non-motorized travel. And again, I want to emphasize that this is not an existential debate, but rather one concerned mainly with categorization, and what it means to remain "on topic" for a forum that is ostensibly about "bicycle touring".

Neil

p.s. I really feel that I have explored this about as deeply as I care to here, so I'm going to try to let it be. It takes quite a lot of effort to do this, and I have other things I need to be getting on with. Have fun with the debate.

Last edited by NeilGunton; 07-26-16 at 12:45 AM. Reason: p.s.
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Old 07-26-16, 12:11 AM
  #395  
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Originally Posted by Caretaker View Post
I'm quite liberal on this subject. If touring on an E-assist E-bike is your thing then fine, I'll just stick to cycle touring.
I
Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
I've got a convert, I've got a convert... Finally someone in the other camp seems to understand, as long as you say E-Bike touring it's E-Bike touring not bicycle touring and not cheating at bicycle touring...
Sorry to disappoint you but I've been saying this since my 2nd post (see above) on this thread #41. You just haven't been paying attention.
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Old 07-26-16, 02:58 AM
  #396  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
How, exactly, is using a bus/train to skip a boring section riding 100% under their own power? It is skipping parts of the tour they don't want to do under their own power....
sure, parts get skipped. however that which is not skipped is 100% self-propelled.
in the case of new york to california, i suppose you could say you cycled from nyc to la,
but took a bus across kansas....OR...you toured from new york to missouri, and then you
cycle toured from nebraska to california.

or perhaps you tied a rope to the back of your uncle's RV, and he ever so gently pulled you
along...but only provided about 30% assist. you were still pedalling, so.....
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Old 07-26-16, 03:40 AM
  #397  
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Originally Posted by alan s View Post
So, how about if someone said they were doing a bicycle tour across the US to raise awareness for their cause. They received donations from people who supported the cause and the idea of doing something difficult to raise awareness. Only later they said "by the way, it would be on a motor-powered bicycle." ("Sorry, forgot to mention that small detail, but I will be pedaling some.") I think there would be a lot of upset supporters who felt duped.
I agree. It's a little better than saying your ride across country would be on a "bike" and then taking your Goldwing.
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Old 07-26-16, 03:46 AM
  #398  
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Originally Posted by saddlesores View Post
some riders will use buses/trains to skip boring sections. others will fly from city
to city....and do a circuit of the area then move to next location. point is they
are riding 100% under their own power during the tour.
Right. I've gone on multiple tours where I road "the whole way" on my bicycle, then took the train home. If I ride for 2,000 miles on my bicycle and then ride the train home have I broken some kind of rule and can't say it was a bicycle tour? Of course not. It's just part of carving out a route for the bicycle tour that fits in your allowed vacation time.
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Old 07-26-16, 06:00 AM
  #399  
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So all those people who claim to have 'cycled round the world' are lying cheaters? I don't agree as it's clear they didn't actually cycle every degree of longitude but it doesn't need to be stated.

If someone did it on an E-assist-bike and then claimed to have 'cycled round the world' I bet they'd get lots of flak when it emerged what they'd been riding.
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Old 07-26-16, 06:48 AM
  #400  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
The point is, by many definitions, they are, whether you accept it or not. By many others, they admittedly are not. What is uttely confounding is that you apparently do see ebikes as more akin to an 1100cc Harley than the bike built on the exact same frame without a little electric motor. If that is the logic you are truly using, it is rather pointless to continue with you, too. Live in your macho world, to be honest I don't think the ebike touring community gives two craps that you hate what they call their activity.
I've never called eBikes motorcycles I called them motorbikes which is what they are. They are two-wheeled-vehicles with motors. Lightweight eBikes (250watt motors) produce considerably more power than than the 170watts that an average cyclist pedals. The legal eBike limit (in many places) of 750watts is closer to wattage of a professional cyclist. Real human power is not required accept to move the pedals around to trigger the assist-motor.

100%-human-powered bicycle touring is what is forum has always been about. Sorry you don't understand that and have to resort to mockery.

Last edited by BigAura; 07-26-16 at 07:52 AM.
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