RiddleOfSteel

Hey, world, I see your Covid-19 and raise you not one but two, TWO(!), TB14s. That makes 28, which is 9 better than 19. Winning. We're totally winning right here.

So the time has come for a changing of the guards. My dynamic vintage wheel duo, the prettiest and most coveted wheelset that any frame in my stable would envy to adorn, the visual standard of vintage excellence (in my mind), a wheelset purchased on eBay years ago, has succumbed to time and chance. In part. Let us pour one out for yet another mighty Mavic, the MA2. The king is dead, long live the king!

A few years ago, I noticed a splitting in the seam at the joint of the rear wheel. Present on both sides but it held, and I was advised that it was ok for now (or at least that's what I remember). It's been 45mph+ down Hurricane Ridge, likely the fastest any of my wheelsets (and frames, too, that being my former '85 Peloton), so I think I tested out the "it's fine" conclusion properly.

Fast forward to a few months ago, and I notice the classic cracking at the eyelets while extensively cleaning the wheelset. Rear wheel. Four eyelets to be exact, with pairs of cracks at opposite sides. How long were they there? Who knows. But I do know that I will have to start thinking about replacing the rim at some point. Would a new wheelset be a better idea than simply a rim or rims replaced? Would a new wheelset that allows for 11 speeds be a smart choice via ensuring future compatibility? Could I source a replacement polished 32-hole 700C MA2 rim for a reasonable cost?

I searched a number of times, in a number of places, and came up empty. I decided I could continue looking, or look into what rims could be a direct swap (or close), thus keeping costs down as wheel building can add up. My criteria were same or very similar ERD, box section, high polished silver, and good quality. There were three choices: a very good condition polished MA2, the TB14, or the Pacenti Brevet.

Mavic MA2 ERD: 613mm
H Plus Son TB14 ERD: 610mm
Pacenti Brevet ERD: 611mm

Why keep the hubs and spokes, instead of buying a 'package build' from someone else for not too much more and minus a lot of effort? Well, when your hubs (7400-era Dura-Ace 8-speed in that classic high polish) and the spokes (very obviously externally butted 2.0 - 1.7 - 2.0mm examples) are still in excellent shape, it's a great base to start from. I have a pair of 7700-era Dura-Ace hubs, but the polish is different and they're only 28-hole--a little light for a (sport) touring Paramount. So the goal was doubly set: keep the hubs, keep the spokes, find a replacement rim / buy new rims, replace the spoke nipples.

On a whim, I decided to peak behind the (rim tape) curtain and see how the spoke/nipple situation was doing. I was greeted by this (and a lot more brown caking in other holes):



Yikes! But then, that's nearly 30 years of life with the last five or so being under my tenure. I bought the wheelset for $200 shipped and have enjoyed many miles with them. They don't owe anyone anything.

I also noticed that at least half the spokes on the non-drive side of the rear wheel, and all of the spokes on the front wheel, were a bit 'shy' of the base of the slit in the top of the nipple [edited as I had spoken of a certain thread engagement amount as ideal and it was incorrect--this has been omitted]. It was a good surprise. Why? Because it meant that I could theoretically swap Brevets or TB14s and have a better spoke thread engagement situation than before. In fact, it was so much better in my mind that I said "forget another MA2, lets go straight for new!"

RiddleOfSteel

So off I went to order some TB14s, as the price and availability of Pacenti wheels always seems to be less stable than the more plentiful TB14. Many of us know that you pay a little more for the Brevets and get a 50g lighter rim with essentially identical width/depth specs to a TB14. That weight was something to consider as MA2s are generally in the 440g range. A Brevet is spec'd at 450g and a TB14 is officially 490g. Stouter rims for a touring bike? Doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. Nor does the bump in external width from 20mm (MA2) to 23mm. Plus, I had recently built up a Superbe Pro / TB14 wheelset and had a great experience. They more or less true themselves as you walk up the tension. I had no qualms.

Ordered. Paid. Shipped. Received. Unpacked. Former era, meet the new era.



Last photo of the former component union. It was a wonderful time, but we celebrate what is to come next!



The spokes are all taped up. A small 10-15 minute price to pay for the utter convenience (and lack of incurred frustration) of spokes not floundering around, getting out of order.



We're not going back now!

etherhuffer 

I think Mavic didn't use stainless eyelets? Sure looks that way

Cassave

RofS;

I had exactly the same thing happen except my MA2s had badly worn thinned sidewalls but no eyelet cracking.
I replaced only the rims with TB14s (love'em I've got two wheelsets built up with them.)
I did the tandem masking tape, swap one spoke at a time thing.
No problems with running out of thread.
You should be fine, in fact the proper thread engagement is to the top of the nipple according to Wheelsmith.
You'll likely end up right about there.

If you haven't built TB14s, all of mine camera came out of the box dead round and flat, makes for an easy build.

Edit: Oh, just noticed you've built TB14s before........

RiddleOfSteel

I ordered some DT Swiss brass nipples to replace the veteran nipples on the wheelset up to that point. There were certainly some grumpy spoke-nipple combinations that didn't want to come apart easily. They were almost exclusively on the rear wheel, which makes sense. The front wheel was essentially hassle free.

The spokes, as I mentioned before, were in excellent visual and functional shape--even their threads! That was a relief. The nipples were fine, when on the bike and half lost in the overall polished composition. But when you compare them to brand new ones. Well........



This was my "transfer station" for the evening. I prepped the spoke holes with grease and the spoke threads with spoke prep. The engraved "Dura-Ace" text on the hub was lined up with the decorated presta valve hole on the TB14. Very satisfying to do so, and so easily! Both wheels were laced here, loosely so. Tape was removed afterward for initial tensioning and truing.



This is a view of the two of the messiest (small) parts of my apartment, but whatever. It was truing time! The rear wheel was brought to tension and my educated guess at the reduced ERD ensuring more thread engagement proved spot on! It was beautiful. I drew the front wheel to tension and found that I didn't gain as much as I had hoped. Still, the front spoke thread engagement was a noticeable improvement from before, thus assuaging my concern there. Both wheels trued and tensioned in efficient-enough fashion. TB14s in my very limited experience generally radially true themselves as you laterally true them, which I very much appreciate. I did, however, have to do some radial truing, but thankfully both rims responded well and immediately to it. I got the rims to 0.5mm of lateral runout (or nearly so) and about double that radially. They'll settle and I'll tidy them up some more, but for now, I'm not going to spend 3 hours chasing marginal gains, at least not now. 32mm tires are going on this, and they have plenty of lateral and radial variance. Let's just say they'll cancel each other out.

RiddleOfSteel

I picked up some 16mm (closer to 17mm) wide Velox rim tape. TB14s have a trough in them that is perfectly sized to accommodate that, and 17mm tape more than covered the spoke holes. I wasn't worried about needing extra width. So here we have some finished product shots:



It may be 'half new' but it looks brand new!



Gotta love that UG and HG compatible freehub.



Love the polish and how both old and new work together visually.



Used Grand Bois tires, due to the increased rim-lip-to-rim-trough depth (over the MA2s), were MUCH easier to mount. I cleaned the Ultegra 11-28T cassette as it was only fitting.

deux jambes

Interesting. I admit that my experience is short, but I’ve never seen a rim swap like this. I like it, and hope to try it myself sometime.

The beloved polished MA2. I’ve had a couple pairs in good shape pass through my hands within the past couple of years. I honestly regret not reserving one of those sets for myself. I am riding on a 36h MA40/Record wheelset with double butted Wheelsmiths however. The dark anodizing of the MA40 just happens to work with the rest of the build. And I have one NOS spare hanging on the wall should I ever need it. So, I’ll count all that among my many blessings.

Anyhow, really enjoyed your post OP. A testament to the quality and service life of an iconic rim. Informative. Fun. And so much winning with two TB14 swap outs!

Congrats on your new killer wheels.

tricky 

sounds like there is some fudge room in swapping rims with different ERDs. Looks like an ERD of 1-3 mm might not matter. That's good to know.

Caliwild

They look great... I had some TB14's laced to my 7400 Dura Ace hubs and love em!

Dylansbob 

Slightly OT, but isn't it just a dream to build up wheels with modern rims? I've built up 4 wheels in the past month and what a difference a stiff, modern rim makes.

Ferrouscious 

I love the idea of the TB14s, but they build into such heavy wheels! The lowest spoke count they come in is 28, but that count is irrelevant to most vintage wheel builds. With 32 spokes, you have to try every lightening trick to get to the 1700-1800g range (aluminum nipples, super butted spokes). Yeah I know tubulars exist for people like me, but sometimes I don't want to spend a weekend fixing a flat.

RiddleOfSteel

STATS:

Going full numbers nerd, for your amusement, information, and posterity. Weights and (some) measures. Keep in mind the MA2 has an external width of 20.0mm and the TB14s 23mm.

700C MA2 - Front: 469g
700C MA2 - Rear: 435g

Front wheel - MA2, spokes, nipples, 7400 hub, rim tape - no QR skewer: 854g
Rear wheel - MA2, spokes, nipples, 7400 hub (8s), rim tape - no QR skewer, no cassette: 1051g
Wheelset weight A (raw): 1905g

Front 7400 QR skewer: 89g
Rear 7400 QR skewer: 95g

Wheelset weight B (with QR skewers): 2089g

700C TB14 - Front: 507g
700C TB14 - Rear: 503g

Front wheel - TB14, spokes, nipples, 7400 hub, rim tape - no QR skewer: 896g
Rear wheel - TB14, spokes, nipples, 7400 hub (8s), rim tape - no QR skewer, no cassette: 1116g
Wheelset weight A (raw): 2012g
Wheelset weight B (with QR skewers): 2196g

Cassette: 6700 Ultegra - 11-28T - 10-speed - including lock ring: 234g + 2g 10-speed spacer = 236g
Velox Rim Tape - 16mm: 16g / wheel, trimmed and mounted
Standard 700x28-35C/27" x 1 1/4" inner tube: ~134g IIRC
Grand Bois Cypress tires - 700C - 30mm: 290g (officially) ~310g measured | Width: 32.0-33.0mm | Height from rim lip: 29.6-30.0mm ----> This is an increase of 1-2mm in both dimensions over the MA2 mounting

Front wheel assembly weight - B wheel weight, plus tube, tire: 1429g
Rear wheel assembly weight - B wheel weight, plus tube, tire: 1656g
Wheelset weight C: 3085g

Rear wheel weight C plus Ultegra cassette, lockring, and spacer: 1892g

Gross wheelset weight (D): 3321g

Rim lip to trough depth - MA2: ~7.0mm
Rim lip to trough depth - TB14: ~8.3mm
Subtract 0.6mm for Velox rim tape thickness, so 6.4mm and 7.7mm respectively

MA2 lip-to-lip diameter: 633mm
TB14 lip-to-lip diameter: 633mm

This isn't a weight weenie build, but I'm glad it happens to be right in line with some TB14/Shimano 11-speed hub wheelsets in weight. Yes, I did increase rotating mass, but the wheels are stiffer and wider (thus surer) over the MA2s and I know my Paramount responds very well to stiffer wheels. How much so will depend on the test ride I do later today (yesterday was raining). My Paramount is also the recipient of (another) new, wider axle BB-UN55 to correct non-drive-side Q-factor issues (too narrow before) while also eliminating drive-side BB spacers (for required chain line). Big changes, for the better, that I am sure will set me along for hopefully decades.

Indoor photo of finished project. Outdoor photos to follow:

RiddleOfSteel

Thank you! I hope to get many years out of them. Really looks like I just bought some new wheels, but it's only half true! Can't wait to get outside.

RiddleOfSteel

I think there is just in general, but that's with a huge caveat: it depends on how deep or shallow they are in the nipple, and it also depends on how accurate or corroborated (hopefully) the ERDs are of the current rim and the new rim. I'm just glad my hunch panned out!

Thank you! Are your TB14s polished as well, or did you go dark anodized or black? Can't loose with any of them really.

Not too OT because I possess the same sentiment! It's really interesting how a wider rim or stiffer wheelset can alter or enhance the characteristic of the frame. Add the tire in there and it's quite a suspension combo to try and get right. Some bikes hate certain changes, and others adapt and assume new traits (like my Paramount).

I hear ya. 500g is the norm it seems per rim for these. Makes you wish for those narrow Matrix Iso CII aero clincher rims (on vintage Treks at least) that came in at 420g a piece. 7400 was a generation built for the long haul as well as performance, so there's plenty of metal where it needs to be. You can tell Shimano went to weight reduction school for the next generation (7700), but I prefer the robust feel of 7400 for something like this. Plus, at 6'5" 210 lb, a hand-built weight weenie endeavor is not in the cards. I'll just buy and ride Shimano's WH-7850 (C24 later on) wheels at ~1400g per set as they controlled the whole material specification and design process. No stated rider weight limit, and in my experience, zero issues (no warping, rim-to-brake-pad rub, etc) outside of super low spoke counts = finicky truing.

RiddleOfSteel

No worries about the TB14 building. My build threads are normally multi-post and take time to compose and post picture to tell the story sufficiently. Thank you for the correction on spoke engagement. I have removed my incorrect statement on that, and noted the edit/omission. I didn't end up at the top of the nipple, but I gained ~1.0 to 1.5mm of thread engagement overall, which I will certainly take! My Superbe Pro / TB14 build, with spoke length calculated with the Spocalc app/program had me end up with spokes at or in that slit area at the top of the nipple. My memory isn't 100%, but I know I remember that they weren't short, thankfully.

No clue, but yeah, the corrosion sure implies that. The eyelets on the spoke/out side looked completely fine, just normal age or patina (a dull grey).

nlerner

Those are sharp-looking wheels and are using one of my favorite tires. One nit: They're not Compass (nor Rene Herse)--just Gran Bois in Japan (though I think Panaracer makes them and J. Heine might have sold them at some point).

RiddleOfSteel

Thanks! Thank you also for pointing out the tire error. That makes a lot more sense. I have corrected it in prior posts!

nlerner

I'm currently cooking up a single-speed project that'll feature those tires. Wheels arrive tomorrow!

ascherer 

This was fascinating!

Mackers

Now all you have to do is rebuild them with correctly aligned valve holes.

RiddleOfSteel

RIDE REPORT:

Well, I think the first errant semi-pothole / crevice in the road let me know that the new rims mean business. What would normally be a still-alarming whomp with the MA2s would nevertheless be a bit tempered by the lesser rim weight, reduced rim width (less "bulb"-like shape to the tires to suspend), and lesser rim strength. So welcome to your new wheels, Riddle; I hope you like them.

Only about four rim-settling 'tings' emanated from the front wheel upon some initial out-of-the-saddle pedaling. I will count that as a win in my wheel-building book. And perhaps it was the low-profile machined sidewalls, but my brakes certainly had noticeably extra bite. I will always welcome extra braking, especially when the tires have plenty of grip to spare before skidding.

If I'm honest, I would have light-heartedly joked that the MA2-hooped wheelset and tire combination would have been "mush" in some senses. They tempered a strong or stiff, less willing-to-rock-back-and-forth frame. They took my somewhat whippy 1981 Trek 716 and dropped it below my approximate "too mushy / supple" threshold. They brought my Paramount to just at or above that threshold. They softened and made more willing my '86 Cannondale SR400, my '85 Peloton, and my '85 Paramount. [side note: knowing what I do now about out of saddle shenanigans, a wheelset need not be the remedy, but rather drop bar type and height]

So I asked myself, would the lighter Pacentis feel a touch more sprightly? Would they be as stiff or strong, or am I still better off with the you-can-actually-find-them-for-sale-in-32-hole TB14s? Have I done a sports car modding faux pas in gaining wheel strength/stiffness/responsiveness by simply "going bigger", incurring the traditional penalties of added rotational mass and harshness? Would a lighter yet still as stiff wheelset yielded near the same result? Or would its lessened rotational mass act as an additional damper in a hard pavement joint? Or would it have been just as mushy?

Let's start with some obvious first-pump-worthy stuff: The new wheels absolutely rail medium and high speed turns. This is where the touring frame weight, touring bike wheelbase, heavier and stronger rims--suspended ultimately by generous tires--work to the advantage. Descents are a non-issue with these. That feels really cool--an unflustered cornering effort.

How about out of the saddle? This is something I am fond of doing, and analyzing. Normally with tall, big tire bikes, the rocking back and forth of an out-of-saddle acceleration effort is met with some pondering and slow swinging. This is very true of frames that are normally spec'd for 25mm tires yet can fit a 30-32mm tire under their brake bridges, fork crowns, and calipers. I draw from a number of accommodating touring bikes in addition to the Paramount: an '82 Miyata 1000, a '90 Cannondale ST400, the aforementioned Trek 716, and an '84 Miyata 610. The Cannondale was in its own league, but the Paramount is now quite close. The 610 was also very good, aided by its very light and quite stiff wheelset (running 32mm tires).

There is no real 'snaking', to use a term, when accelerating or climbing. Especially climbing. There is a 10%+ grade that I do hill-climbs on near my home. Only about 0.2 miles, but it's done out of the saddle in either a 39-24 gear combo, or a 39-21 if I'm feeling real good and on my Davidson. And it's not even too difficult thanks to a taller drop bar setup on both Paramount and Davidson which allow for fairly upright out-of-saddle climbing--like walking up a flight of stairs. With the old MA2s, the Paramount would 'snake' as I rocked back and forth casually, climbing the grade. That 'snaking' is essentially gone. Nothing wrong with before, as it was part of the slow dance up the hill, but it's more business-like now.

Flat road acceleration is equally 'stiffened' and the bike rocks back and forth more willingly. It's still not a race bike, but she rocks plenty well. Sometimes I think I can feel the extra rim weight on spin up, and perhaps I can. Still, I'm not as strong as I've been in the past a bit, mostly due to a knee (IT band) that I still can't see a fitter/PT guy about because of the virus stuff.

So, some final quick thoughts before I give you some pictures and limit my ramblings here: 35mm tires are a go now, and I do have Paselas that I used on a previous 23mm wide rim (the black ones when I had this built with Campagnolo EPS). That will be cool to test. Those Campy-splined wheels were just over 1800g with their Origin8 hubs and Velocity A23 rims. Stiff and light and a great match with the Paselas. I will do a more granular break down of wheel component weight for those wheels and mine, and see where things lie.

I am pleased with them overall. Now to get used to them and re-true the front wheel as I expected to do some touching up after riding them.To pictures:

RiddleOfSteel

Thank you!

Russ Roth

Good write up and a good looking setup. I've just replaced some open pros with a velocity, the open pro fit inside the new sidewalls and the weight was only 20g difference. I have to say I noticed an improvement in ride comfort, I did stick with 23mm tires though so not a big difference, but out of the saddle sprinting and corner were much nicer, more responsive and more assured. I have to agree with your assessment that the wider, stiffer rims are worth the weight penalty. Unfortunately my frame won't handle a much wider tire though I think I'm going to outfit it with a 25 which is the widest.
I do find it funny that people worry that there's a thread or two showing on the spokes, I personally don't allow 2 full threads to show, but all these years and mileage later its the rim that failed and not the spokes being right to the bottom of the driver valley. Wheels are built to some amazing tolerances but at the same time still have a bit of leeway for what makes a perfect build. Glad spoke length worked for you.

repechage

In this case the existing wheels had spokes too short.
i ran into the same situation - maybe even worse - went from 27” Super Champ
Gentleman rims to the scary but free to me Ambrosio Elite 19’s in 700c.
worked well - spokes should have been 3-4 mm longer.

RiddleOfSteel

What model Velocity rims did you have? Deep V? Some frames are super tight for tires, which baffles me. Trek did it with their road stuff in the '90s and early '00s. 23mm max. Same with some early Specialized Sirrus'. Unnecessary, and I'm not a fat tire advocate.

No spokes were showing threads in the MA2 / DA build prior to my changing to TB14s, just to keep the record accurate here. The spoke threading discussion centered around--when looking from the "back side" of the rim (where the tire, tube, and tape live) at the spokes--how shallow or far down the spokes were in the nipple and what is generally considered a proper or healthy thread engagement.

Yup. Weird on such a high end build, but nice parts in the hands of less-than properly skilled builders don't magically build perfectly. We of course see this everywhere.