Death of Mentorship
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Death of Mentorship
Throwing this out there as I actually want some discussion. For those that don't already know I have a podcast out there (like everyone else these days). It's mainly racing focused but the premise is more - hey look who stopped by the shop. Sit down and have a beer. let's talk.
Kind of like those long discussions you have in the car on the way to a far race. We seem to have a re-occuring theme. A lot of the older school guys keep mentioning it. They feel that the level of general cycling ability amongst all fields - including and especially the P12 fields - has dropped significantly.
This isn't a power or speed discussion rather a general ability to be a cyclist. Riding ability, skills at reading the pack, handling, knowledge of the simple stuff.
Some claim it's because everyone trains with their heads down now buried in powermeters and they no longer go through the type of mentorships that used to be present in the fields/groups/teams.
Thoughts?
Kind of like those long discussions you have in the car on the way to a far race. We seem to have a re-occuring theme. A lot of the older school guys keep mentioning it. They feel that the level of general cycling ability amongst all fields - including and especially the P12 fields - has dropped significantly.
This isn't a power or speed discussion rather a general ability to be a cyclist. Riding ability, skills at reading the pack, handling, knowledge of the simple stuff.
Some claim it's because everyone trains with their heads down now buried in powermeters and they no longer go through the type of mentorships that used to be present in the fields/groups/teams.
Thoughts?
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#2
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There's been a general replacement of a lot of aspects of club culture with the internet. This has made cycling more accessible and understandable, but also means there are a lot of people out there who've been riding for two years and learned everything on the internet sharing their "expertise." And it's hard to sort the good from the bad. I'm super-guilty of being one of those guys (though I was lucky enough to get some mentoring when I started), but now that I've been road riding for a decade I finally have some glimmers of real experience. I think it gets better if people stick with it, eventually they develop wisdom.
But yeah, the ultimate issue is the club system has become a lot weaker. Partly because it's possible to get info elsewhere, but there are probably lots of other causes, too.
But yeah, the ultimate issue is the club system has become a lot weaker. Partly because it's possible to get info elsewhere, but there are probably lots of other causes, too.
#3
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While I don't doubt that this is somewhat true, I don't think it's totally true. Then again I didn't race 'back in the day' (whenever that was, exactly), so I don't know.
Yes training is more scientific now - but if you look at the guys who win races today, they know how to read races, have riding ability, good handling.
I would think that back in the day, the guys who lost a lot also didn't know how to win races and generally race well.
/My $0.02
Anyway, what's the podcast called?
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I was a mediocre racer, and very deep into the culture. I of course miss the hard core don't need no stinking car days, but as a sport - it depends.
The USA juniors wave my son grew up in 2015/2016 - that most don't even know about - is faster and higher performance than any group the USA has ever had.
USA was the #1 junior UCI team in the world 2015. Search for Adrian Costa, Brandon McNulty and a few before 2105 like Logan Owen, and others.
Even the 2nd tier supporting kid competitors from Specialized juniors, Hot Tubes and LUX get some serious respect from any USA P1 field and are faster and stronger than a ITT champs of prior years.
We have more Cat 1 17/18 year olds than ever now (based on what I could search).
So...the USA youth cycling talent is better than ever by far.
But - cycling is a damaged sport, thanks mostly to USADA where we eat-our-own, those that cheat, and those that don't understand your chances of winning at the world level without banned substances is less than 20%. Many USA kids growing up aware of all this, believe they could be pros, but choose to do something else. A decade ago - they'd be pros. Not now.
Is that bad? To me it is bitter sweet, but they have choices. Why put a kid in a sport where stats show you have to take PEDs (I posted elsewhere only 3 riders/3 TdF wins in the 25 years were done by riders with no record of taking banned PEDs - it is that bad)? If they don't use PEDs and do well, they are accused of doing PEDs.
I guess we could tell them to go out and soft pedal and have fun, but it doesn't work that way. They do something else.
On the mentor part. I hired a coach that was a mentor and friend to my kid. Years earlier he was pre-riding course with him pointing out strategy.
I see that is fairly common among the talented kids to have a hired mentor/coach. It just seems the rela$ionship$ require financial means first. That does not bother me, but it is different.
The USA juniors wave my son grew up in 2015/2016 - that most don't even know about - is faster and higher performance than any group the USA has ever had.
USA was the #1 junior UCI team in the world 2015. Search for Adrian Costa, Brandon McNulty and a few before 2105 like Logan Owen, and others.
Even the 2nd tier supporting kid competitors from Specialized juniors, Hot Tubes and LUX get some serious respect from any USA P1 field and are faster and stronger than a ITT champs of prior years.
We have more Cat 1 17/18 year olds than ever now (based on what I could search).
So...the USA youth cycling talent is better than ever by far.
But - cycling is a damaged sport, thanks mostly to USADA where we eat-our-own, those that cheat, and those that don't understand your chances of winning at the world level without banned substances is less than 20%. Many USA kids growing up aware of all this, believe they could be pros, but choose to do something else. A decade ago - they'd be pros. Not now.
Is that bad? To me it is bitter sweet, but they have choices. Why put a kid in a sport where stats show you have to take PEDs (I posted elsewhere only 3 riders/3 TdF wins in the 25 years were done by riders with no record of taking banned PEDs - it is that bad)? If they don't use PEDs and do well, they are accused of doing PEDs.
I guess we could tell them to go out and soft pedal and have fun, but it doesn't work that way. They do something else.
On the mentor part. I hired a coach that was a mentor and friend to my kid. Years earlier he was pre-riding course with him pointing out strategy.
I see that is fairly common among the talented kids to have a hired mentor/coach. It just seems the rela$ionship$ require financial means first. That does not bother me, but it is different.
Last edited by Doge; 02-28-17 at 11:39 PM.
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RE: the level has dropped.
i haven't raced much at all compared to many and this is stream of consciousness forum ranting, but for what i saw in the past 5 seasons here on the east coast , racers benefitted from the point change, the general 'young' mentality of instant gratification, and also the sheer hilarity of USAC points accountability, makes me believe that there are indeed less experienced people in the p12 fields.
- points dont expire like in the past, and a broken clock is right twice a day. My thought being if you are hungry enough for points and race enough, someone is bound to get those 1 point per race , if they race 40 times.
- similar to the bullet above, i think nowadays people just wanna do the cat5-1 thing because it's 'cool' and they wanna get in and get out quicker. Same mentality for people who might have podiumed a cat5 race and are sending their race resumes requesting a cat 4 to coordinator
- There has been one case where I began to question how someone was a cat1 here in MABRA. I looked up their road results, and their points total was not very optimistic, and I honestly believe they simply lied to the upgrade coordinator. Whereby the coordinator should be 'checking' right? Another case was mentioned to me by a friend , and he was upgrade to cat 1 with 10 less points than he needed , got his cat 1, someone who was close to the coordinator mentioned it and then was down graded within 2 weeks back to cat2..... i can barely wrap my head around that sentence.
the mentorship thing, can be parallel to time on the bike. Cycling is very insular , so im not exactly surprised that people sometimes do the lone wolf thing. I am like that. But for me (and in other sports i've done) i am a firm believer in 'upgrading' when you've done your time properly and the more you do something should equate to more experience.
i haven't raced much at all compared to many and this is stream of consciousness forum ranting, but for what i saw in the past 5 seasons here on the east coast , racers benefitted from the point change, the general 'young' mentality of instant gratification, and also the sheer hilarity of USAC points accountability, makes me believe that there are indeed less experienced people in the p12 fields.
- points dont expire like in the past, and a broken clock is right twice a day. My thought being if you are hungry enough for points and race enough, someone is bound to get those 1 point per race , if they race 40 times.
- similar to the bullet above, i think nowadays people just wanna do the cat5-1 thing because it's 'cool' and they wanna get in and get out quicker. Same mentality for people who might have podiumed a cat5 race and are sending their race resumes requesting a cat 4 to coordinator
- There has been one case where I began to question how someone was a cat1 here in MABRA. I looked up their road results, and their points total was not very optimistic, and I honestly believe they simply lied to the upgrade coordinator. Whereby the coordinator should be 'checking' right? Another case was mentioned to me by a friend , and he was upgrade to cat 1 with 10 less points than he needed , got his cat 1, someone who was close to the coordinator mentioned it and then was down graded within 2 weeks back to cat2..... i can barely wrap my head around that sentence.
the mentorship thing, can be parallel to time on the bike. Cycling is very insular , so im not exactly surprised that people sometimes do the lone wolf thing. I am like that. But for me (and in other sports i've done) i am a firm believer in 'upgrading' when you've done your time properly and the more you do something should equate to more experience.
#6
Blast from the Past
Psimet, I don't think it's just Power, it's training solo. My experience (entering the sport it the 80's) most training was in a group. Whether that was formally a USCF Club or a group of local racers. A ton of time in pace lines, sending someone up the road to chase, sprints at signs, taking contact, ect.
It's a fact though that as an individual you can maximize aerobic fitness much more effectively riding solo with structure. Entry into the sport (not getting dropped) requires fitness more than it does bike handling or race craft. And the raw fitness level required is higher IMO. So the 10 to 20 hrs/week I would have spent in a rotating pace line as a 4 in 1985 (and getting fit along the way) is now spent solo or on a trainer trying to hit zone and time targets.
It's a fact though that as an individual you can maximize aerobic fitness much more effectively riding solo with structure. Entry into the sport (not getting dropped) requires fitness more than it does bike handling or race craft. And the raw fitness level required is higher IMO. So the 10 to 20 hrs/week I would have spent in a rotating pace line as a 4 in 1985 (and getting fit along the way) is now spent solo or on a trainer trying to hit zone and time targets.
Last edited by Voodoo76; 03-01-17 at 07:21 AM.
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Yes training is more scientific now - but if you look at the guys who win races today, they know how to read races, have riding ability, good handling.
I would think that back in the day, the guys who lost a lot also didn't know how to win races and generally race well.
/My $0.02
Anyway, what's the podcast called?
I would think that back in the day, the guys who lost a lot also didn't know how to win races and generally race well.
/My $0.02
Anyway, what's the podcast called?
Then they find out they aren't strong enough to ride away anymore, and they have to learn to race. In some cases, they learn quickly or have decent handling skills and do fine. In many other cases, they don't learn to handle their bikes and crash a lot. I had a teammate who was a pro triathlete for about five years before becoming a bike racer. He went 5-2 in half a season, then crashed in pretty much every P/1/2 race he entered until he quit racing and went back to med school. (And if him being super strong athletically and really smart, he was also quite good looking and a very nice guy, so it made it really hard to dislike him.)
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I was fortunate when I first started riding that I lived in an incredibly windy area. Our baseline wind was 15mph. Trees grew at a slant because they wind blew them so much. And because of that, I had to learn how to handle my bike well. A sudden gust, or a sudden drop in wind, could throw me off my line in an instant. In groups, which were always small, drafting was crucial as I was developing and getting stronger and trying to not get dropped. I had to learn how to ride close to others. I also learned how to echelon well before I had even considered racing. So that was huge for me.
When I moved here, I found a group that specialized in developing 4s and 5s. There was a big group of younger people my age. We had very structured group rides, and sometimes people would leave because they didn't like being held to our riding standards. But over time, guys moved away or had kids and stopped riding, and the group shrank. That team still exists, but it is mostly comprised now of older individuals (50s-60s) who do not race on the road. Some do cross, and some do tris.
Beyond that, there is the regular hammer ride, which is a free-for-all, and really needs to be reigned in. It's causing some problems with residents - legitimately. Running stop signs and red lights, crossing the yellow line, cutting off cars...
Rides like that are great for getting stronger, but they do not teach new riders anything good.
When I moved here, I found a group that specialized in developing 4s and 5s. There was a big group of younger people my age. We had very structured group rides, and sometimes people would leave because they didn't like being held to our riding standards. But over time, guys moved away or had kids and stopped riding, and the group shrank. That team still exists, but it is mostly comprised now of older individuals (50s-60s) who do not race on the road. Some do cross, and some do tris.
Beyond that, there is the regular hammer ride, which is a free-for-all, and really needs to be reigned in. It's causing some problems with residents - legitimately. Running stop signs and red lights, crossing the yellow line, cutting off cars...
Rides like that are great for getting stronger, but they do not teach new riders anything good.
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as I sat across from my 21 yr old son at dinner in Boston last night a cpl days before his trip to CA for a journalism conference, I thought about parental advice but had to bite my lip. he's a man now. he needs to learn from ppl in his field, so I encouraged him to attend as many of the presentations as he could stand. it would be work, but it would be worthwhile to learn from experts in the field. his student colleagues (& those that went in previous years) said they would (& had) likely skip most of the presentations & just explore the city ... oy ;-(
#11
Senior Member
The older we get, the faster we were.
While I don't doubt that this is somewhat true, I don't think it's totally true. Then again I didn't race 'back in the day' (whenever that was, exactly), so I don't know.
Yes training is more scientific now - but if you look at the guys who win races today, they know how to read races, have riding ability, good handling.
I would think that back in the day, the guys who lost a lot also didn't know how to win races and generally race well.
/My $0.02
Anyway, what's the podcast called?
While I don't doubt that this is somewhat true, I don't think it's totally true. Then again I didn't race 'back in the day' (whenever that was, exactly), so I don't know.
Yes training is more scientific now - but if you look at the guys who win races today, they know how to read races, have riding ability, good handling.
I would think that back in the day, the guys who lost a lot also didn't know how to win races and generally race well.
/My $0.02
Anyway, what's the podcast called?
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#14
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When I first started riding a cat 3 took me under his wing and showed me the basics and let me tag along on interval sessions and I thought he was the coolest mother ****er on two wheels. The shop I bought my bike from also invited me on group rides and took care to show me how to ride in a paceline and general etiquette. That was like 12 years ago? My experience since then is that there are fewer group rides that focus on teaching skills to new riders, and that is a bummer. I ride with some buddies that are lower category from time to time and when they're doing actual workouts I'll ride along and give them pointers because I know how essential that was for keeping me in the sport long term.
I've been racing pretty consistently for most of those 12 years. It doesn't seem like people suck more at soft skills. It does seem like the lower categories have gotten faster though as access to power training has become normal, and the byproduct of that may be that things seem sketchier than they were a decade ago. I'm pretty new to the upper category stuff so I can't speak to rider quality at this level.
I've been racing pretty consistently for most of those 12 years. It doesn't seem like people suck more at soft skills. It does seem like the lower categories have gotten faster though as access to power training has become normal, and the byproduct of that may be that things seem sketchier than they were a decade ago. I'm pretty new to the upper category stuff so I can't speak to rider quality at this level.
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When I first started riding a cat 3 took me under his wing and showed me the basics and let me tag along on interval sessions and I thought he was the coolest mother ****er on two wheels. The shop I bought my bike from also invited me on group rides and took care to show me how to ride in a paceline and general etiquette. That was like 12 years ago? My experience since then is that there are fewer group rides that focus on teaching skills to new riders, and that is a bummer. I ride with some buddies that are lower category from time to time and when they're doing actual workouts I'll ride along and give them pointers because I know how essential that was for keeping me in the sport long term.
I've been racing pretty consistently for most of those 12 years. It doesn't seem like people suck more at soft skills. It does seem like the lower categories have gotten faster though as access to power training has become normal, and the byproduct of that may be that things seem sketchier than they were a decade ago. I'm pretty new to the upper category stuff so I can't speak to rider quality at this level.
I've been racing pretty consistently for most of those 12 years. It doesn't seem like people suck more at soft skills. It does seem like the lower categories have gotten faster though as access to power training has become normal, and the byproduct of that may be that things seem sketchier than they were a decade ago. I'm pretty new to the upper category stuff so I can't speak to rider quality at this level.
#18
Blast from the Past
I think if anything back in the day (which is way back for some of us) it was slower/easier early season in lower Cat's. How much different would the first training race of the year be if everybody was coming in on a month or two of little ring or fixed gear JRA ? Now even Cat 5's have coaches, access to very effective training information and a higher level of fitness.
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You're getting older. The friends you're talking to are getting older.
This sounds -exactly- like the "back in my day" discussions that occur about every sport as athletes age through it. See NBA ("used to be more physical!") and NFL ("we'd practice 4x/day for 9 months!") and you know, every other sport.
There's probably a measurable decline in participation numbers in amateur racing because there isn't a popular american cyclist outside of cycling spheres. No Merckx or Lance right now to get the sport on TV outside of relatively-tiny cable channels.
This sounds -exactly- like the "back in my day" discussions that occur about every sport as athletes age through it. See NBA ("used to be more physical!") and NFL ("we'd practice 4x/day for 9 months!") and you know, every other sport.
There's probably a measurable decline in participation numbers in amateur racing because there isn't a popular american cyclist outside of cycling spheres. No Merckx or Lance right now to get the sport on TV outside of relatively-tiny cable channels.
#23
Senior Member
I've been racing pretty consistently for most of those 12 years. It doesn't seem like people suck more at soft skills. It does seem like the lower categories have gotten faster though as access to power training has become normal, and the byproduct of that may be that things seem sketchier than they were a decade ago. I'm pretty new to the upper category stuff so I can't speak to rider quality at this level.
I think if anything back in the day (which is way back for some of us) it was slower/easier early season in lower Cat's. How much different would the first training race of the year be if everybody was coming in on a month or two of little ring or fixed gear JRA ? Now even Cat 5's have coaches, access to very effective training information and a higher level of fitness.
(Still got it when it comes to making excuses!)
#24
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Of all the old guys who you've talked to that say nobody goes through mentorship anymore, how many of them are mentors?
Sounds a lot like those old guys complaining about kids getting participation trophies. Well, my 8 year old never asked for one, never demanded one, but his old coach sure like handing them out. Who's giving the trophies? Exactly, you and us other ****ty parents.
Or, even better the old guys who say "all kids do is stay inside on their game consoles, when I was a kid...blah-blah-blah". Then when my son and his friends are outside and heaven forbid the ball goes into the neighbors yard, **** you'd think they ***** his wife. Screaming and yelling at kids when they are outside...so...go back inside is that what you old ****s want?
These old times sponsoring new rider programs? Taking a CAT 5 under their wing? What would happen if I asked a question as a complete Cat 5 noob on this very board? Mentorship? Lol, yeah right. "Did you read the stickies?" (Yes, I've read them all). Or a personal favorite "use the search function". Looks like mentorship to me.
Sounds a lot like those old guys complaining about kids getting participation trophies. Well, my 8 year old never asked for one, never demanded one, but his old coach sure like handing them out. Who's giving the trophies? Exactly, you and us other ****ty parents.
Or, even better the old guys who say "all kids do is stay inside on their game consoles, when I was a kid...blah-blah-blah". Then when my son and his friends are outside and heaven forbid the ball goes into the neighbors yard, **** you'd think they ***** his wife. Screaming and yelling at kids when they are outside...so...go back inside is that what you old ****s want?
These old times sponsoring new rider programs? Taking a CAT 5 under their wing? What would happen if I asked a question as a complete Cat 5 noob on this very board? Mentorship? Lol, yeah right. "Did you read the stickies?" (Yes, I've read them all). Or a personal favorite "use the search function". Looks like mentorship to me.
Last edited by aplcr0331; 03-01-17 at 04:19 PM.
#25
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Slightly hesitant to reply because I'm more likely in the camp of "new riders with a lack of general cycling ability" and don't know what things were like in the good old days, but anecdotally I haven't found problems with lack of mentorship. I've got two solid mentors in @Ygduf and @mattm, and am personally responsible for about 5-6 runners learning about the basics of cycling (things like drafting, gear selection, bike maintenance, pacing, training, group rides, etc) and getting them involved in the sport.
I'm also not entirely sure what the issue is - as others have mentioned, if the skills you feel riders lack these days are important then the riders will either be forced learn them eventually or they won't win races/succeed. And if racers win without those skills, maybe those skills aren't as important as you think?
I'm also not entirely sure what the issue is - as others have mentioned, if the skills you feel riders lack these days are important then the riders will either be forced learn them eventually or they won't win races/succeed. And if racers win without those skills, maybe those skills aren't as important as you think?