Munny

Sorry, I'm about quality and not mass production
And quality is not about economics, hence, chrome was used on many brands.

You will understand if I'd say that I prefer the good quality Merckx not produced by Merckx.
My only "Merckx produced by Merckx" was owned by someone of this family name.
Other that this one,, a Merckx Fiat of the 1977 team (De Rosa with Kessels fork); an early Kessels Molteni with details that the EMC would dream of, and a not so good quality but very rare Molteni by Jeunet.
I sold or gave the other Merckx named bikes.

Miele Man

I see that in the description that it's listed as a custom build that was built in Italy. Interesting.

Cheers

jiangshi

I have nothing to add, except to say this is the best thread in this forum in a decade, in my opinion. This is what the forum was like before the 'know it alls' came along.

I would like to say 'chapeau' to Munny , I hope you chime in on Merckx more often. To alexihnen for his valuable perspective, and especially to our new actual Merckx expert, CyclesMakaron . You have been a true asset to this community and to ThePaceline, as well. Thank you also for overcoming our language barrier. Some of us truly appreciate true classic race bikes and, especially Merckx's.

Once again... Chapeau!

P!N20

You must have missed the box thread.

jiangshi

This one?
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...lling-box.html

I don't think I missed it.

P!N20

You missed it. https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...-open-box.html

jiangshi

Saw that one, too, hence the reason for the post above.

I learned nothing from that thread. This one has been a learning experience.

cudak888 

Of course it the box thread was the best thread of the decade. If one's idea of "best" means "best trainwreck"

He meant it tongue-in-cheek.

-Kurt

CyclesMakaron

Okay! We're comparing two different weight categories... it won't work
I'm very curious about your "Merckx - no EMC" especially that:
- the early EMCs were "license copies" of De Rosa... (without the Kessels fork)
- Kessels Molteni...for team? If so, Kessels didn't build it...
I had a Kessels frame from 1973 (top, full Reynolds 531) - it was a classic solid Belgian frame, no unnecessary fireworks - exceptional details, I admit, I did not notice...
- Jeunet Merckx no matter what the quality is exceptional - always
Is there a chance to see these miracles?

Munny

Sorry but I'm afraid I need to drop this and unsubscribe from the post.
It's not about you or the errors by lack of knowledge.

I'm not here to argue
I'm still bitterfull of what I experienced in another post about an 1987 Alan
Sorry

cudak888 

Fair enough, Munny. But remember that CyclesMakaron is on a mission to document Eddy Merckx production, regardless of "quality or mass production." As such, he most definitely has to document production bicycles that, naturally, were never directly connected or physically built by someone bearing the Merckx name (any more than every De Rosa was touched by Ugo himself).

You say that there are errors of knowledge in his research. But you haven't provided evidence to support this. In fact, he only asked to see your uniquely low-production DeRosa/Kessels Fiat team issue, the Kessels Molteni, and the Jeuent-built Molteni.

We'd all appreciate seeing these bikes, and I think CyclesMakaron asked as nicely as anyone could. Not because he doubts you, but because of genuine interest. I realize there may be some misunderstandings relating to digital translations, but it's fairly clear that he simply wants to continue a conversation and even learn from you. After all, a picture is worth 1,000 words.

That said, I really don't think it's reasonable to get upset over his comment that there were no Kessels-made Molteni team frames. If you have a bike that proves the contrary, bring it to light and share the knowledge.

-Kurt

jiangshi

I could be mistaken, but I think most every frame in the 1980's had a De Rosa hold a torch to it. Someone told me that, so it must be true

CyclesMakaron

It may be strange, but I'm grateful for demonstrating my ignorance... but documented.
With my method of "gaining knowledge about EMC" every fact, photo, article can "destroy the theory"
Funny examples from recent weeks:
- I have claimed so far (and so it is described in the not yet corrected thread) that the Criterium model was produced in 1986-1988 (because all the frames I saw fit that period, catalogues and photos also)... It's outdated - one Criterium frame from ...1991 was enough (yes, it could have been an exceptional order, but it doesn't matter - 1988 is out of the game)
- I was convinced that all the frames of the Corsa Columbus SL had "road racing geo"... it's out of date - one 1992 frame marked "century geo" was enough...
1 example for "no" is more than 1000 examples for "yes"... ...cruel fun...
The difference between "evidence of non-existence" and "lack of evidence of existence" is decisive, and it is very easy to confuse it.
I am very sorry that I was not well understood - I would really like to see these 3 bikes (e.g. Jeunet "Merckx" - I have never seen one, I wonder when it was built, is it before Starnord etc)
Kessels and her contacts with Eddy Merckx are difficult to write about in one sentence... Kessels had great Belgian subcontractors to build team frames (and that's all I wanted to do); the contract with EM gave him the opportunity (from a certain point on) to "stick to Kessels" each of his frames (including those built by De Rosa - that's why I would love to see the other bikes)
...a situation similar to Colnago-Windsor in Mexico in 1972, but described by contract
...Ugo De Rosa was used to this situation - in 1974 80% of the bicycles (frames) used in Giro came out of his workshop... and what beautiful different names and colours they had

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

R2creatives

This thread has been a good read and I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking/knowing this bicycle listing is way off base on so many points! I challenged the sellers post on Facebook, got nowhere, but eventually the post was taken down. One important point that I would add is that the tag might say "Bike Show Special" not "Show Bike Special". To me that means it was sold at a "special show price" and not that it was actually a "show bike". I own a very similar '81/82 Merckx (#E 5306) with chrome lugs and I assume mine was probably a special order or something like that... not a show bike.

R2creatives

also the "3" on the bottom bracket should specify a 53cm frame (c-t-c) and the tag says 55cm. I'd like to measure that seat tube for myself.

CyclesMakaron

The seller showed an "orange card" with the fair cities, Milan also appears in the collector's papers - but it was supposed to be a "show bike", the "show price" in an ordinary shop is not justified (if a collector bought a bike right after the fair it would make sense, but then the bill from Branford does not fit into the legend)
53 c-c is about 55 c-t... the description is unclear, but it's difficult to question it at this point
E5306 is rather the turn of 82/83
Chromed lugs is a paid option available to the public (very elegant, by the way)

willyw0nga

Beautiful!

CyclesMakaron

Our hero has returned...
...for $1999...

R2creatives

more realistic... probably get some interest at the price.

katsarasj

I have followed this thread and somehow it was surmised that the entire bicycle, as advertised by the seller on E-Bay, was shown at the 1981 Milan bike show. If one, however, takes a closer look at the documentation provided by the seller on his Flickr site, one comes to the conclusion that only the frameset/headset were shown at the show(s) or if a complete show bike, its components were stipped sometime between the end of the show(s) and when Mr. Morgan Woods bought the frameset/headset in question. In the end, Mr Woods built up the frameset as is shown in the E-Bay auction - this is also documented in the seller's Flickr site. To summarize, whether or not this was a show bike or frameset, in my opinion, is irrelevant. The bike stands entirely on its own merits as was built in 1982 by Mr. Morgan Woods.

cudak888 

Who's Morgan Woods?

-Kurt

katsarasj

The person that built up the frameset and owned the bike until his death in 2019.

cudak888 

Exactly. "Who's Morgan Woods?"

Whether or not this is the 1981 show bike is much more interesting and relevant to its historical provenance than Morgan Woods' ownership of it.

If anything, it stands on the merits of being a Merckx.

-Kurt

IBJoel

Testing quote links.