rawklobster

I'm sure they had an amazing time! I don't think any bike is beyond making into a touring bike. Comfort could be a challenge, but not unattainable. For me, I enjoy this process. I spent copious amounts of time building my tadpole trike and was thrilled with the final product. Now I sold it and looking to build a touring rig. The girl I sold it to test rode mine, and then tried some at the only shop in town that had tadpole trikes. She said they were "Awful... Nowhere as computable as yours" which makes sense since I'ma comfort junkie. Anyhoo, it's fun. I find the time I invest into the process of building a bike (trike) very enjoyable. But if I didn't, I'd just buy a Surly LHT with a few changes and take it from there. But that's too quick and unexplored... I'm enjoying this process almost as much as the touring ahead! Once it's built, I'm sure I'll become a camping gear junkie. I'll need something to obsess over. *smile*

Clyde1820

^ This.

I view efficiency not in terms of watts-per-mile but rather in terms of enjoyment by the month. If I can be out there and effectively get where I need to go while easing the path and taking care of these old bones, I'll likely take it.

Adjustable stem, swept riser bar, softer/larger saddle, fatter pedals, cushier tires than is the "norm" for a typical ride ... all of it helps.

Of course, it's been awhile since I can recall the last 25-kt wind I rode through. I'm sure I'd be a little less willing to sit more upright, if living in those spots I used to.


Now, for the wheel rebuild, the 700x45's, and the Brooks saddle ...

manapua_man

I generally ride with an upright position, and flat bars+bar ends on my bike.

Speed isn't usually a priority on this end. And for me its a little easier on my back/neck, and it lets me gawk at everything easier.


IMHO the best thing to do is just try a bunch of different things and figure out what works best for you, rather than get a thousand opinions that really won't make much difference in the end.

hillikus

I'm in the process of doing exactly what you're doing. I've never been comfortable in drop bars and have a bad habit of just getting a different bike with drop bars to try and get comfortable. So far it hasn't worked so I've decided to build up a more upright commutourer. I have a 25" Trek 520 that is most likely too large of a frame for me, but I wanted it to have handlebars that were a bit higher than my normal sized bikes. Then I added VO Porteur bars with cork grips from Rivendell and some simple city brake levers. I haven't done any long rides on her yet, and haven't glued down the grips because I can't quite decide if the Porteur bars will be wide enough for what I want. They hit my knees when I turn sharp, but when just riding they put my hands in a pretty neutral position with little weight on them and they have a bit of room for 2 hand positions(haven't wrapped the bars forward of the grips yet, but that's the plan). Recently I've been getting hand numbness when riding most straight bar bikes and even some swept back bars so I'm trying to find something that works. Might try some bars that are a bit wider than these and perhaps a longer stem as well, but since we all love pictures, here she is as she sits right now.

rawklobster

Enjoyment is definitely the priority. I followed a friend who was doing a long distance ride from Toronto to Montreal, unloaded, on a super angled race bike. The descriptions of pain were erased by the accomplishment, and I know speed is definitely a priority in that feeling of accomplishment, but we all get satisfaction from different things. Mine is definitely comfort.

Will make sure I know all there is to know about adjustable stem, swept riser bar, and fatter pedals. (not faster pedals, right?)

The Nitto Bosco bars have a reach position for wind that could work, possibly at the cost of perineum discomfort.

rawklobster

I wasn't really asking for opinions, but rather looking for evidence. If I was to discover nobody has successfully found a comfortable upright riding position for touring, then I'd have to look at compromises. But I have found what I am looking for, which are other riders who have managed to find this riding position agreeable for touring. I will be trying an upright ride on my Pashley, and see how it goes over 100km, slightly loaded, but then the Pashley slightly loaded is almost the weight of my future touring bike loaded. Give or take 10-15 lbs.

rawklobster

Commutourer!!! Love that name! That's what I'll be using Rawk Lobster II for... Commuting, and mostly touring. I had hand numbness on my steep geometry mountain bike with straight bars. I brought the bar closer and used padded gloves, but that only works for a bit. And my perineum was always super painful on longer rides.

Give the Nitto bars a look. They have lots, and I personally love the Bosco bars.

Also, do you like the cork grips? I will look into Rivendell bar ends and their advantages. I was just going to do leather on the bars, but these look like an attractive option, specially if they are compatible with the width of Rohloff shifters.

schnee

I just met a pair of Serbians who were on the tail end of a 3,000k tour on flat-bar bikes. I think it's kind of a euro thing - basically cross bikes (700c, big tire clearance and cantis) with flat bars and bar ends.

DropBarFan

In Germany the tourists seem to favor flat-bars or butterfly bars. Germany has a famous network of cycling trails; I've read that some of the trails can be a bit bumpy; also German towns sometimes have paving-stone roads--maybe that's part of the reason they like the more upright position. & I've read that's even more the case for Russian tourists, where the back roads often bumpy or unpaved.

rawklobster

Sounds right... I think in North America there was a drop bar fetish in the early days of modern riding and it stuck. *smile* It's only recently that I got turned onto upright bikes by a local shop that promotes comfortable commuting bikes more in line with the European style of biking.

rawklobster

I think I'm missing something? What's the reason upright positions are better able to handle those road conditions? It's not obvious to me but I'm curious to know more.

I think there are more people/per capita that ride bikes in Europe, and I think it's worth looking at why so many choose or prefer upright riding.

elcruxio

They probably like butterfly bars or flatbars because that's what they are sold. The basic commuter sold in Germany has either a flat bar or a butterfly bar. Drop bars are only really used on road bikes.
Drop bar touring is more a an anglican/french way of doing it and I have sadly concede that it is one of the only things the frenchies/anglicans have gotten right.

elcruxio

I would assume european cyclotourists don't ride as long distances per day as one needs to cover in states for example. In middle Europe there are towns every 10km or so so you'll never really need to cover a lot of distance. You can if you want to, but you don't have to.

Also marketing. If drop bar bikes are not sold then they are also not bought.

rawklobster

My first "adult" bike was with drop bars. Same with all of my friends. I recall always using the flat tops, and luckily the brakes were accessible via a curved piece of metal, so you could brake from the drops and the tops. In any case, it was the most popular type of bike being sold, and there was no rhyme or reason to sell kids bikes with drop bars, except that the culture popularized it. That's just my feeling, but I do believe I read it somewhere. Something along the lines of drop-bars being a North American thing, while in Europe, you're more likely to find tour bikes sold with butterfly bars. I'll see if I can find where I read that.

But I agree that the European tourists got their bikes right ... The main reason I'm building a custom bike is that I was swapping too many parts to get what I want, and prefer to buy from North America. Although an exploration of tour bikes being sold in Europe might garner a different result.

DropBarFan

I'd agree w/elcruxio mostly in that it's mostly just traditional consumer patterns there. From what I've seen in western Europe the roads are not severely bumpy, one could manage them fine w/drop bar bike if it had relaxed angles and/or wider tires...but in Germany/northern Europe there's a sharp divide between road bikes & daily bikes. Over there it seems that road (racing-type) bikes are mostly for enthusiasts, not like US where folks splash $2K+ on road bikes just for occasional short fitness rides.

Used to do courier work in DC & streets were getting so terrible that many couriers switched to mountain bikes. Not so much for upright position per se but MTBs w/fat tires & often relaxed angles swallow up the bumps. But in re your question, more upright position does take some shock off wrists/hands etc. In northern Europe many folks commute thru winter so I imagine that it's easier to ride upright with heavy coat, dress clothes etc. In Germany it seems that commuter-types usually buy a bike that's fairly decent, so I guess they figure why buy a separate bike for mild touring?

However this still doesn't really explain why Germans etc who do buy fancy tourers often go for flat bars?

rawklobster

Wrists/hands... Thanks! That's what I wanted to know. Totally clear now.

MassiveD

So where this thread got off to a bad start was

1) the idea that drops, aren't upright, they are two level bars with correct positioning of the hands an a wide range of hand and rest positions, how high or low you place them is up to you;

2) the idea of wind aside. In cycling there is almost always adverse wind, or so it seems to me, comfort is directly related to how well you cut into the wind, or deal with the wind.

3) the idea that drops aren't comfortable seemingly because they are for racing. Racing puts huge loads on the body,and granted, winning is primary, bu discomfort is not the best strategy for a win. Racers simply have adapted themselves to optimal practices, since tourists spend a long time on bikes also, it shouldn't be impossible for them to adapt to optimal practices. I have all kinds of problems that would seem to make adapting to stuff more difficult for me, but after a day or two back in the saddle I am comfortable riding in an efficient posture.

4) the idea that drops are an american thing that somehow stuck, or that upright posture is not a touring thing. If you look at youtube vids of folks out touring post war, there is a mix of upright (sensible bar shapes, not the crazy MTB nonsense), and drops. Both were popular in the UK. My parents were touring in the UK back then and my dad had an upright, and my mom one with drop bars. She wasn't all that convinced about it, but she is evidence of the fact that drops were on bikes sold for touring, back then.

MassiveD

I grew up around bike in TO, and the reason drop bikes were popular was that in the early 70s the "10 speed" arrived on the scene, and virtually every aspect of the bike seemed better than what the likes of CCM where selling. Drops were part of the package and they are better in many ways, but not what everyone wants. And the bikes were racing bikes which is certainly not what everyone wants.

Butterfly bars have always seemed to me to be the worst of all possible worlds. German bikes are not the pinacle of human achievement as far as I am concerned. I owned a very expensive Toxy, and it was a pretty bad design.

Europe is less wilderness vs urban than over here. If Yosemite was in Europe it would have a whole slew of cable cars and railways up to the tops. And you could base jump off anything you wanted to, there would probably be a chalet on Boot Flake on the Nose route, and a metal ladder past the King Swing to keep traffic moving. One result of that is that there are mountain trails where the adventure bike style of touring bike makes some sense. As opposed to trying to keep bikes off. And they are just north of Africa, where if you that kind of bike plays in the imagination.

Over here most people seem to want to do a big drive, like a trans at, and the bikes that suit that are caddies with drop bars. You stretch out the air bags so you can process the oxygen, it's ergo correct, and there is always he possibility of some kind of ache or pain, but certainly as far as wrists are concerned the drop makes a lot of sense. As it says in the PW quote, real cyclists have bent arms and float on their backs, wrist problems are not the issue, and even with a bad back you aren't loading the road shock vertically. Upright makes sense for people that don't cycle, drops make sense for people that do, on roads.

MassiveD

You are onto the right kind of bar if you don't want drops. You want your hands in a shake hands position , for comfort and other reasons. How high or low you place the bar is up to you (and whatever your custom/stock bike allows)

I had all these physical problems following some pretty bad injuries, and when I got back into touring, I looked around, and determined my best bet was a recumbent. After that flirtation, I eventually ended up back on a standard drops bike. It just is the best road eater and I am comfortable. For true offroad, where there are technical challenges, it is not the right thing, but for a lot of offroad,, and any onroad it is the best format. The only two situations where I could see uprights being better would be if one wasn't a serious cyclist and just did the odd tour. That's great, and if one never spent more than a day or two in the saddle, it might make sense because one couldn't adapt. The other situation is some extreme condition where upright is the only solution. If one basically fits within the human family, and one does longer tours, I just don't see the advantage to upright. suck it up, make the commitment, stop doing it wrong, learn the proper techniques. That would be my advice to the average person, but we are all individuals, or so we think.

Last few years I have been overhauling my swimming. I could never do the crawl without getting rapidly winded. I am no distance athlete, but it did seem that I was blowing up way too soon even considering that. So I have been working piece by piece at it, and every year I get quite a bit better. Again, technique commitment, stick with the proven formula. And actually, come to think of it, the solution was the opposite of saying, wind schmind. It turns out that the secret is efficiency, in particular because the weight of water means very high resistance, just as with wind at higher velocities on a bike is where you spend the vast majority of your energy. You learn how to get streamlined, level floating, and not blow up, how to breath. It really isn't the best strategy to figure out how to waste the most energy just to hold on to some preconceived notion of what will be comfortable. I asked my 9 year old whether if she had to swim carrying a gallon jug of water, would it be easier to carry it immersed, or out of the water. She immediately grasped the idea that it would be easier to carry it immersed, but will she immerse her head. No, she prefers to wear a life jacket, and struggle to make 10 feet.

MassiveD

As with all this stuff, though less so than some, that is also just the latest fad. In NA, selling some nonsense is the key. People get excited about some kind of impractical jibberish, like racing bikes, or MTBs in Ontario where the highest mountain isn't, and for that mater is so gradual you can't easily spot it. How many people after buying a Dutch bike experience any real change, or are hauling 5 kids around in a box on yonge street. If the bike industry actually sold people what they needed, there wouldn't be any repeat sales.

MassiveD

Sounds like you are more than fit enough to do it right, and you have enough miles under your belt to know what you like. I just wonder, whether you are set up correctly and have tried it long enough to really know what you are passing by.


I look at a good turn of speed as reducing impact energy in the very rare, rear onset collision, and giving me the initiative. The faster I am going the longer a driver has to see me, coming from my blind spot. That is mostly a city driving mindset for me.




Sometimes you can't go slowly enough, I was in a wind in Quebec, where in the lowest gear I couldn't move the bike in the strongest gusts. I also find I can't slow down enough to get up some hills. I would be willing to do it, but I can't go slow enough. Due to structural problems walking is not an option for me. On a trike worst case you are in a lawn chair. Very nasty stuff seemed to happen if I failed on a Hill on my Toxy.

With the right gloves I don't have hand problems. I suspect you aren't riding your bike properly if you think there are huge loads on your hands when using drops. The main position issue for me is wind. I am probably on the hoods or around them most of the time, but if I have a tail wind I may be up high, or a cross wind I am sloped, or a head wind I am hiding as low as I can get. Your having done the PC I am impressed that none of this makes sense to you. Were you loaded? These days you can get it low enough that there isn't all that much difference either way.

You are putting more weight on your ass upright, and all the cushions you are using, are available on any style of touring bike, most people just don't care to use them.


It's a design spiral, if you want to be super fast, you have to give up something. The same is true about super comfortable. And so I have to wonder what it is you are planing on giving up. A slower paced touring can be a good thing as you point out. I think the aspect of being in a posture where you can really look around is a point in favour. I built efficiency into all aspects of the equation in order to avoid a coronary at my age. I just don't find every pedal stoke of every tour a relaxing sleep in the park. I can't afford to give up that much performance, and while I think maintaining comfort is key, I don't expect it to feel like driving a car. I just want the comfort to be sustainable, no saddle sores sort of thing. The body purring along efficiently is one of my main pleasures while on tour. At your pace you would not be sleeping in the same campsite as I do, and wondering about whether I was enjoying myself, but I do think the idea of how far is far enough is fair enough. When the riding is really great, I can't get enough of it.

MassiveD

Heinz Stucke

OK, toured every country on earth, almost a half million miles or km or something. Pretty much all on a 3 speed upright bike, since decades ago. Therefore:

of course one can do it; Not a new trendy option, "hey look at me they opened a dutch bike store in my neighbourhood". The feeling I get about him though is that he isn't a bike nut. He tours more than any of us, but whatever crap he started on, is fine by him. So that is another category. Non-bike nut uprighters. Obviously he made a good choice. But one has to wonder about a guy who has never upgraded from a 3 speed hub. On that basis no new bikes sales since the 50s. Sounds like heaven.

schnee

Counterpoint: you should meet the Serbians I met. 150km was a lazy day for them.

Believe me, I've had my share of trying to explain to Europeans just how freakin' HUUUGe the 'states are, but don't let that color the perception about the experience, endurance or mileage of the cyclists. If anything, because cycling is so core to the culture, the kind of people that take a car to run a small errand in the 'states will ride a bike instead, and the people who would drive to a weekend getaway will pack up their panniers and bike it. The people who crush it for long, long mileage? I'd bet per capita there are more of them.

I mean, sure, Seattle has lots of people that bike commute in rain. I've been living in Sweden, and I commuted all year, even during snowfall and streets covered in slush. Know the best part? In below freezing weather, I'd be bundled up and trucking along, and a woman in her 60's with no hat or gloves would just dust me on her city bike.

rawklobster

Thanks for all of these points MassiveD! Lots of excellent information and considerations.

I did the Pacific Coast tour on a Tadpole Trike Recumbent. Extremely comfortable! But I sold her to a friend, with no regrets, since the thing is a beast to store, and I wouldn't get much use from her aside from touring. I figure I could sell my commuter Pashley and have a commutourer.

And yes, I was definitely poorly fitted for most of the bikes that have led me to believe I won't find drops comfortable.

As for giving up speed/efficiency... I really have no issue here. I know my quads will ache, as they did on the Trike. But saddle sores, perennial discomfort and sore sitting bones, as well as sore hands are my biggest concerns.

I wouldn't say I would not be sleeping in the same campsites as you. I imagine I will be averaging 100km/day, as I did on my slow Trike, where I averaged about 13MPH. I won't be spending as much time with you at camp, but if there are 12 hours of daylight, and even as much as 6 hours of sightseeing, hiking, eating, stopping, etc, if I was riding 10MPH, I'd still pull off the 100km in a day.

I'm going to pay some money to get fitted to a bike that is in the store at MEC, and see how comfy I can be. I'm also going to experiment with my Pashley upright and bike 100km and see what pain I experience (likely sitting bones despite a wide, sprung broken in saddle). I'm not against non-upright riding if it's comfortable, but so far it's the only non-issue riding I have experienced. But as I said, I was never properly fitted, but that just revealed pain experiences that *could* occur if it's not perfect.

I should add that I feel more comfortable building a bike with a more upright position, and then lowering it if I feel I need. And perhaps even adding drop bars. I think the geometry of the bike will be the same for the builder whether it's upright or hunched.

Pukeskywalker

Can I ask what seatpost you are using? I've never seen something with that much setback