I hate carbon !!
06-08-17, 12:49 AM
#51
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And we all know that spider web is stronger than carbon on a weight per weight basis, but I haven't seen a frame made of it yet. Steel has a high shear strength, you will not see carbon fiber used in nuts or bolts, which gives lie to the idea that carbon is stronger. There are only a couple ways in which carbon is stronger than steel, and many ways in which steel is stronger than carbon.
One problem with carbon is that it is bonded with polymer, which dries and breaks down over time, and with exposure to uv light. Oscillation from riding and breakdown of perishable substances will eventually result in deterioration. The same thing happens to steel from oxygen and oscillation, but on a much slower scale.
I used to practice achery, and loved when carbon arrows were introduced. But then my shooting improved to the point that I was constantly splitting arrows, and carbon arrows are expensive. I went back to aluminum arrows, as I could straighten them out after hitting them with another arrow.
If you buy a light steel frame, and do the basics to keep it clean, your great grandchildren will be able to enjoy it when they are old enough to ride. I doibt the same could be said about carbon.
One problem with carbon is that it is bonded with polymer, which dries and breaks down over time, and with exposure to uv light. Oscillation from riding and breakdown of perishable substances will eventually result in deterioration. The same thing happens to steel from oxygen and oscillation, but on a much slower scale.
I used to practice achery, and loved when carbon arrows were introduced. But then my shooting improved to the point that I was constantly splitting arrows, and carbon arrows are expensive. I went back to aluminum arrows, as I could straighten them out after hitting them with another arrow.
If you buy a light steel frame, and do the basics to keep it clean, your great grandchildren will be able to enjoy it when they are old enough to ride. I doibt the same could be said about carbon.
You can doubt it all you want - the science says otherwise. Lighter, stronger and more duty cycles, hence it's use in airliners (duty cycle and durability) and F1 (strength). Here is a good read:
https://cyclingtips.com/2015/08/what...-carbon-frame/
"Scott Nielson has worked with carbon fibre for over a decade, starting with Trek, and is now the vice president of research and development and engineering at Enve. “If you look at carbon materials in general,” he said, “they’re very good in fatigue, much better than any aluminium or steel would be. If done properly, a frame could last you forever.”"
“Composites do not behave like metals,” explained Chuck Texiera. “In fact, they don’t actually fatigue like metals in the same classic sense of the word. The fatigue life of the fibre itself is just about infinite.”
"If done properly"....like anything. There is good and bad, cheap and high end. Nobody said it was cheap to play with the big dogs. Obviously Stevenson believes in it....why would they spec a carbon fork on their bike? They'd build a carbon frame if they could, but they can't, it's difficult and expensive.
Don't confuse 'better' for 'good enough'. I have more than 1 steel frame, highly customizeable and 'inexpensive' even for the custom one, relative to a custom carbon frame, which would be 4x the price.
I also have a second hand Calfee, 25 year warranty that is transferable - pretty confident and well sorted.
And about UV:
“Most epoxies and resins today are extremely good. I’m sure you could find some place like the moon where really high radiation levels could burn off all the resin. Bikes are typically painted with UVA-resistant paints, even if they’re clear-coated. Then the resins have a certain UV-tolerance as well.”
06-08-17, 12:52 AM
#52
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06-08-17, 02:32 AM
#53
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06-08-17, 04:16 AM
#54
I hope you understand I was three-winky-joking. But this thread is I-hate-carbon and it was started the same time as the I-love-carbon thread, hence my reference to the other side of the street.
06-08-17, 07:56 AM
#55
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06-08-17, 10:18 PM
#56
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Those bike-to-car crashes happened a long time ago & 2 of the 3 I had no significant injury (knock on wood) but the main point is that steel frames can comprehensively fail rather easily. Cars are the #1 cause of bad crashes.
06-09-17, 07:00 AM
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I'm sorry I didn't see this @edthesped. Hopefully you will see this.
I can't speak to it's durability but the Jamis Renegade Elite is another you may want to look at. It has an amazing parts mix and I would likely own it if it came with Di2.
The Niner is easily the most comfortable bike I own. My others are a highly modified steel fixed gear bike which rides like butter and an older Aluminum Fuji endurance bike which is actually rather harsh. The Niner just fits me better than the others but fit aside, I really enjoy riding the carbon. Keep in mind that this is the only carbon bike I've ever owned so my experience is limited but it does seem to absorb any harshness where the steel bike flexes and the aluminum bike transmits. I beat the crap out of the Niner too. I built it to ride, not to worship and am not afraid to use it.
Don't hesitate to send a PM if you have specific questions and please let me know what you decide.
-Tim-
I can't speak to it's durability but the Jamis Renegade Elite is another you may want to look at. It has an amazing parts mix and I would likely own it if it came with Di2.
The Niner is easily the most comfortable bike I own. My others are a highly modified steel fixed gear bike which rides like butter and an older Aluminum Fuji endurance bike which is actually rather harsh. The Niner just fits me better than the others but fit aside, I really enjoy riding the carbon. Keep in mind that this is the only carbon bike I've ever owned so my experience is limited but it does seem to absorb any harshness where the steel bike flexes and the aluminum bike transmits. I beat the crap out of the Niner too. I built it to ride, not to worship and am not afraid to use it.
Don't hesitate to send a PM if you have specific questions and please let me know what you decide.
-Tim-
06-10-17, 09:20 AM
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Carbon isn't worth it for touring light IMO. Titanium is what i prefer. Motobecane makes cheap and study frames. Steel is great too obviously
06-11-17, 09:11 PM
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Titanium would be nice for touring--sturdy & is supposed to have a somewhat comfortable ride--would love to see Ti version of 559mm/26" Disc Trucker with travel couplers & split dropout. But Ti & carbon ~touring bikes seem to be mostly randonneur or gravel style with limited features/versatility for the price. Custom Chinese Ti frame is interesting but a bit risky.
06-11-17, 09:39 PM
#60
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here's the taobao listing for builders
advertising custom titanium frames.
https://s.taobao.com/search?q=%E5%AE...eft=2%2C48&s=0
this'n with the integrated rack looks "interesting yet risky"!
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm...ucket=3#detail
06-11-17, 11:22 PM
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How so? I have had zero problems using my carbon CX bike with bikepacking gear stuck on it. A lot of guys do the same with carbon mountain bikes that get the living crap beat out of them with no issues either.
06-12-17, 09:21 AM
#62
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Titanium would be nice for touring--sturdy & is supposed to have a somewhat comfortable ride--would love to see Ti version of 559mm/26" Disc Trucker with travel couplers & split dropout. But Ti & carbon ~touring bikes seem to be mostly randonneur or gravel style with limited features/versatility for the price. Custom Chinese Ti frame is interesting but a bit risky.
06-12-17, 02:49 PM
#63
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A Lynskey frameset on sale costs more than a complete Surly at full retail. To you it may be worth it but to a lot of tourists it's not.
06-12-17, 08:21 PM
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06-12-17, 08:42 PM
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US-made custom Ti frames are pricey. Disc Trucker sacrifices handling for comfort but a Ti frame doesn't necessarily fix that. IMHO logical thing is light frame with suspension fork: added weight largely offset with lighter & faster wheels & tires--far more comfort & safety. Recently descended a fast but super-bumpy downtown boulevard, even "comfy" DT was bouncing around like crazy @ 20 mph.
06-13-17, 07:22 AM
#68
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06-14-17, 09:54 AM
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hmm,
can't say either way because I've never owned or ridden one with any carbon on it.
all I know is for my type of riding and use carbon isn't cost effective for me.
can't say either way because I've never owned or ridden one with any carbon on it.
all I know is for my type of riding and use carbon isn't cost effective for me.
05-26-19, 10:29 AM
#71
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My aluminum frame cyclocross has a carbon fork, seat post, and handlebars. No problems ever but I have a Nm torque wrench so I don’t over do it on the bolts.
05-26-19, 11:05 AM
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Friend of a friend hit a tree last week. The Whisky carbon fork was completely (visually) undamaged while the Surly ICT frame folded in half. Now, that fork is likely compromised too, but it's a demonstration of the impact resistance and relative strength of modern carbon. The entire bike folded before the steering tube (also carbon) failed.
I say modern carbon very specifically because there has been a long maturation period to the material, and improving technologies in ultrasound and manufacturing in the last decade or so has really brought things to a new level. Today's carbon is many orders of magnitude more reliable than the carbon bikes of the onset.
I have no reservations about carbon. I used to, but I don't anymore. I usually gravitate towards steel for aesthetics, but my list of other reasons (durability, vibration damping, ride feel) is getting shorter since Carbon bikes often out-perform Steel in all categories, even flex. Even budget-wise, it's getting more accessible, and the entry level frames today compare well to pro frames from two or three years ago.
Carbon today? Totally different animal. I have zero reservations.
Ben
05-26-19, 11:20 AM
#73
Banned
Touring .. the race crowd gather for another year .. Transam 2019 .. 17 days to Yorktown VA, last year...
but the regular folks seem to favor steel .. and seeing the countryside..
but the regular folks seem to favor steel .. and seeing the countryside..
05-26-19, 05:06 PM
#74
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Yes, I know I am answering an old post but ... let's say this guy was deep in the woods and not prepared to spend the night; that doing so might be fatal. He's got to ride out if he wants to live. That bike just might make it. Had he hit the tree on an all CF bike, it probably would have snapped in two at roughly the same place. Especially since the CF fork would have taken up none of the energy of the crash just as it did not for this steel frame. Now, had this been an all steel bike and fork, probably the fork would have bent a lot and the top and down tubes little. Find a big stick (we know there are trees around), straighten the fork to be rideable and ride out. No big deal. Riders have been doing on-the-spot re-bends for steel forks and riding on for the past 140 years. (Watch the movie "Stars and Waterbottle Carriers" of the 1970 Giro d'Italia. You'll see racers re-bending their forks after crashes and giving chase.)
Ben
Ben
05-26-19, 05:30 PM
#75
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With all due respect, you know nothing about Rodriquez ride quality.
I happen to own a Rodriguez made from True Temper S3. It is anything but a wet noodle and stiffer than my Niner RLT 9 RDO pictured earlier in this thread.
-Tim-
I happen to own a Rodriguez made from True Temper S3. It is anything but a wet noodle and stiffer than my Niner RLT 9 RDO pictured earlier in this thread.
-Tim-