biketampa

train to speed? What? You’re not thinking clearly. So many things effect speed. The bike you’re riding. The tires. The tire pressure. The road conditions. The weather. Especially wind. That’s EXACTLY why you don’t train to speed. Power is far more reliable metric than speed.

training to power is not blindly tossing out all other factors and blindly training to power. If I wake up and feel fine and have a power based workout I will follow it. If I’m feeling particularly fatigued or something I will adjust the plan.

rubiksoval

Used, used, used. $200-400 bucks all over the place.

rubiksoval

Congrats on choosing two people (and one that doesn't even race anymore) out of a pool of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands.

You're arguing just to argue. It's completely pointless.

rubiksoval

Yes. But yours doesn't?

Because mine do.

rubiksoval

Who's published recently?

Thibault Pinot and Marcel Kittel? Yep.

Then, of course, you have examples of guys training by power going back two to three decades with Basso, Armstrong, and Riis.

And of course, you know this. That you can only come up with two guy (and I'm pretty sure Phinney's video said racing/time trialing with power, not training) is enough to show how misguided your futile attempts are.

You're very familiar with Roy Knickman, right?



Thanks for playing.

MoAlpha

Power2max. No complaints. I never use it to train. In fact, the data go directly to my wife, who only tells me how much peanut butter and cottage cheese to buy for next week.

jaxgtr

Yep, you are correct on the used, I meant to say new sales....

Hiro11

I have a 2017 Quarq DZero Carbon on one bike and a 2019 Giant Power Pro (which is a rebadged Pioneer unit, I believe) on another bike. The Quarq is spider-based, the Giant has two strain guages on the crankarms themselves.

I personally love training with power meters. Power meter data combined with heart rate data provides a fairly conclusive measure of overall fitness and how hard a particular workout was.

The Quarq has been absolutely bulletproof, connects instantly to my headunit and the battery lasts a very long time. It doesn't have a rechargeable battery and replacing the battery is apparently a bit of a pain due to the fiddly cover, but I haven't had to do it yet. Great product.

The Giant has a rechargeable battery but... it sucked when I first got it. Initially, the Giant had tons of lost connections and constant battery drain. I had the charge the damned thing before every ride. Sometimes I just couldn't get it to connect to my head unit as I was headed out the door. Also, I couldn't update the firmware as the unreliable Bluetooth connection caused failures mid-update. The Power Pro was driving me nuts back then. Thankfully after about three months of ownership, I finally got the firmware on the Giant updated without it bombing out. That first update made the connection a lot more reliable but the battery drain issue persisted. Subsequent firmware updates have fixed that problems, the Giant unit now holds a charge for months and connects reliably. Now I really like the Power Pro, it's as foolproof as the Quarq at this point. The 2021 version of the Power Pro has a different appearance but is apparently identical inside. Now that it's reliable, Giant including the Power Pro for free on many models is a great bargain that few are matching at this point.

gregf83 

I think it's call drunk trolling...

tomato coupe

I have one minor complaint about my Power2Max -- it uses a fairly uncommon battery size that isn't stocked in many stores.

Doge

I think you know how well I know him - right? I would expect you might find us agreeing.

As there are too many posts to respond to, I'll start from somewhat the beginning.

I like PMs, I have them on my bikes and my kid's bikes. I like hub meters because I do not think they are useful for racing and they better measure the whole system - after friction etc., although there is tire and wheel loss, they are the closest to power to the pavement you can get now.


My point of not training to power is that trying to adjust effort to a power number has the rider working too hard, or not hard enough. The point of training is to fatigue and then recover. How much fatigue and how long to recover are not things a PM tells the athlete.

Morning resting HR, blood pressure, and feel are better indicators than meeting a power number. A PM does not tell you about fatigue or recovery – just power.


A PM is useful for :
1 Optimizing position by trying to hold a speed at the least amount of power. Power may go down in some positions where speed goes up. Those of certain sizes lose power in regulated positions (UCI TT).

2 Seeing relative power of opponents vs yours over time slices and if racing, act on that. This assumes you have opponents, if not skip.
For example a cycling buddy of my kid can hit 2,000W. But how many times can he do that and how long can he hold 1,200W. Knowing that helps know how to ride against that person.

3 In cases where a known route is being repeated it can be a guide to effort especially when weather is added as an unknown.

4 A recorded power and power/time that coaches can use to devise training methods to fill gaps.

5 Recording total actual work done

6 Seeing progression of training over time - you can get that from speed and races instead.

Not useful for finding what effort you should do to meet a number on the PM.

In a ITT, if it is anything but consistent you have to deal with aero drag and hills. More power should be applied up the hill and less descending as the aero resistance is exponential to speed. How much more power? That is an art. The both year Kona bike section records were set without Wurf looking at a PM, so he said in a video.

Not useful for fatiging the body/training to a number. On any given day you can do more, or less than another day. Try too hard to meet a number and you over train. Follow a number when you could have done more and you left too much on the table.

Not useful for raceing with the rare exception of being alone on a realatively consistant situation. Part of that art is knowing how you feel and what you can do - and when to ignore the numbers.

asgelle

No, the point of training is to overload the system to produce desired adaptations. Fatigue doesn't necessarily indicate overload. Recovery from fatigue doesn't necessarily produce desired adaptations. Training with a power meter, if applied properly, can tell a rider that the correct overload is being generated.

Doge

What is the goal? I assumed it was more speed, not more power. Even so, for more power I might not use a PM to achieve that.
You are correct, so many things affect speed. If the goal is to be faster, why not focus on that? The most aero position for a 6' rider is likely not the most powerful (if regulated by UCI/USAC rules). So when new rules come down, seems to make more sense to find how to deal with going faster with those constraints.

Road Fan

I agree with your first sentence, but why should you not also use them for measuring and regulating your training effort? If there is a better tool, what is it?

tgenec86

Wow has this thread gone off the rails. A simple question turned into a circular debate about the value (or lack of) of using power for training, racing, washing underwear, disciplining small children, and committing lewd acts with houseplants.


So. To answer your question - both of my bikes are equipped with crank based power meters, Quarq brand. It's the more expensive way to go since you can't swap them out easily or quickly, but they are highly reliable and accurate. They provide power measurement for both legs since the strain is measured at the axle. My oldest one I bought in 2013 and it is still on my training / rainy day bike and works fine. Batteries last a very long time - I think I change them out every nine to twelve month whether they need it our not and have never had one go dead on a ride. They just work. Get on the bike, don't forget your computer, and evaluate your power when you get home with any number of great tracking tools. I have used a PowerTap hub and it was OK - wired though, so equally inconvenient. Wireless is the way to go there! I also tried a Stages power meter (left crank arm) and it didn't seem to give as consistent of a reading - but that was while I worked with my coach on a new program and he was doing serious number crunching. Just on my own it would have been sufficient. Get what fits your needs (and budget) and USE THE DATA! It will help you improve or meet the goals you set.


As far as whether or not you "need" a power meter? Power does not lie. Some days you go out and feel like you can crush the world and your power reads what you are able to put down on the road. Some days you go out feeling kind of meh? and notice that you just can't keep the numbers up. You can be deep into a training bloc and notice that your numbers keep going down even though you feel like you are putting everything into it. Or you can be on a day where you just feel good and realize you're pushing huge number and think "damn - I'm doing this?" Your body reacts differently depending on stress. HR, breathing, perceived exertion, sweating, body heat - are all variable depending on your conditions, mental state, health. But power is a measurement of what you are capable of sustaining. I've had days where I felt like sheep dung run over by a pack of wolves, but rode off the front of a group. I've also had days where I felt pretty OK but watched the pack leave me behind and nothing and no one could get any more power out of me. It's also the ideal measuring stick, because the better and stronger you get, the higher the sustained numbers go. My max HR was 172 six months ago getting healthy from a knee injury and my FTP was 264. My max HR today is 172 and my FTP is 286. I don't know of ANY accurate test of your ability to maintain power output based on heart rate, but FTP tests are an all you can eat buffet of methods.

Atlas Shrugged

My power meter helps my Marriage, it’s another cycling indulgence she supports! I have had various power meters for over 10 years, never raced, trained formally or ever approached cycling in a competitive way. I just like riding bikes, bike technology, equipment, its a hobby which we enjoy. There are lot of scolds hiding behind keyboards on this forum telling people they know the exact threshold between necessity and indulgent waste. To someone from the economic bottom 80% of the world everything being discussed is frivolous luxury.

guachi

Indeed. If I have a workout - a HIIT workout - and I want to do X intervals for Y length at Z% of my FTP and I can't meet my Z% (not a set # but a range) then I'll stop doing the intervals even if I haven't done all I've planned. To continue on will just pile up fatigue without generating the adaptations I want.

MoAlpha

2450? Are they rare? I’ve only had the gizmo since July, but I’ve bought two batteries at my local military commissary, where shopping can be an almost Soviet experience.

Thomas15

I'm a PM newbie, about 6 months in with a pair of Garmin Vector 3. Prior to getting them I was using SPD pedals and I wanted to start using road cleats and get a new pair of shoes anyway.

Having the Garmins coupled with an Edge 530 is great, I chose pedal based PMs for the ease of moving from one bike to the other.

I do some interval training inside with Zwift so having PMs outside is helping me to keep from going too hard on the hills. I'm never going to be anything other than a recreational rider but I want to be a good recreational rider. I have more money spent on my Garmin computer and PM pedals than my bike. Some might think that crazy but when I get ready to upgrade my bike it will be a simple thing to move the head unit and PMs to the new.

tomato coupe

Mine uses 2450N batteries. Not a common size, and I think only one manufacturer (Renata) produces them.

MoAlpha

Ah, the first generation, the one that eats batteries? Someone else here has one of those and only premium, Swiss-made, Renata batteries will fit it.

Outrider1

Thanks Hiro!

Outrider1

Thanks a bunch!

scottfsmith

I am new to power meters, I recently got the Stages left crank (only) meter. Why did I get that one? It was the cheapest. It has been reasonably consistent for me if I compare power vs time on different runs of the same Strava segment for example. I am sure it is not as good as what the pros are using, but I don't think an amateur like me needs anything more.

I think tgenec86 hit it on the head why a power meter is an awesome thing. I have learned a ton about what is good and bad about my biking style by watching what power I am putting out. Just to give one example, I found I seriously backed off on the power right at the crest of the hill, as in 300W to 100W. I knew I was backing off a bit, but 300 to 100?? Now I try to even it out a bit. Another example: power across a sprint. I found I was over-exerting at the start of sprints and then not having enough for the final push. One more example: consistency. thought I was keeping relatively steady power, but found when I got distracted (by about anything) my power could drop a huge amount, way more than I had thought. Also it is possible to see how different stroke styles affect the power output. etc etc.

guachi

I've experienced similar to you. There's some point, especially, after a hard effort where you back off to "easy" but with legs still a bit toasted it can be hard to really determine what power you're putting out when maybe what you want is to push over the top and get your speed back up.

Sprinting? What's that? I have no sprint. 290W FTP and I've never cracked 1,000 Watts. Strava says my highest was 952 for a few seconds and 841 for 5 when I saw a light changing red. I'll take your word for it on over-exerting early, though.

I see my power drop when distracted, too. Most notably on Zwift since I can't fall off or hit anything. Watching TV and get caught up in the show - power drop. Talk to wife - power drop.