be110001

I recently purchased a frame off of ebay that was advertised as being from a 78 Trek 510 with Ishiwata 022. However, upon receiving it I am clearly convinced it is not. Right now my hunch is that it is a mid to late 70s Japanese bike, maybe a Nishiki, Miyata, or Univega. Here are the stats:

Ishiwata 4 D stamped on fork steerer tube
JIS fork crown, ie 27.0mm crown race inside diameter
tall head tube, about 9.1cm c-c
rear hub spacing: 120mm
chainstay length: 42.5cm
top tube c-c: 56cm
seat tube c-c: 56cm or 56.5cm
accepts 26.8mm seat tube
chainstays crimped for tire/fender clearance and for chainring clearance
suntour dropouts, but thick paint prevents making out if they are GS-11, GT, or what
No serial numbers on frame, again a thick repaint might be obscuring them
No brand names stamped anywhere on the frame or fork

The 26.8mm seat tube rules out O22 definitely and maybe 024, I'm not sure.

So any thoughts on what tubing the frame is or what brand it is?

Thanks

PS - I'll update with some picks of the lugs and other details if requested

cinco

I can't tell you much without photos but I can say that my '80 414 uses 022 and has the standard 27.2 seatpost. I can't find the specs on 024 tubing at the moment and math doesn't seem to help. For a standard 28.6 OD seat tube the thickness at the top would have to be .9mm to give you a 26.8 seatpost diameter so at least that's a starting point. Serial numbers would probably help ID immensely so look real closely at the common areas and vary the angle of light.

be110001

I have looked thoroughly and cannot come up with any serial numbers on the frame. They might be there, under the paint somewhere, since it was laid on pretty thick by whoever had it repainted. It looks great so I can't bring myself to remove it looking for serial numbers which may or may not be there.

Another detail piece that people who've spent some time around old japanese bikes might recognize is the downtube stop for the collar that shifters are mounted on. It looks like the pontiac logo with three little depressions or dots, one in each point. It has braze-on shifter bosses, but these might have been added later.

I'm hoping that Ishiwata tubing (.9mm or .8mm thick at top of seat tube), a J.I.S. headset, and suntour dropouts might narrow the pool considerably.

I appreciate any help and input on this one.

jjvw

If you can't find a serial number, then posting detailed pics of the frame is the next best thing.

unworthy1

Another detail piece that people who've spent some time around old japanese bikes might recognize is the downtube stop for the collar that shifters are mounted on. It looks like the pontiac logo with three little depressions or dots, one in each point. It has braze-on shifter bosses, but these might have been added later.

I'm hoping that Ishiwata tubing (.9mm or .8mm thick at top of seat tube), a J.I.S. headset, and suntour dropouts might narrow the pool considerably.

Not really, that's a pretty big pool typical of a lot of JP marques from the '70s and into the '80s. If anything, the downtube stop is more distinctive than those other features, and if it has braze-on shifter bosses, too, then they must be later additions. Pics of the details are essential...

T-Mar

26.8mm is the standard post size for most Tange tubesets. Most manufacturers stick with one tubing manufacturer, so it seems unlikely to have a Tange frame with Ishiwata forks.

Normally 022 frames take 27.2mm posts , so unless the seat tube slot is pinched to about 1/2 its normal width or the framebuilder put the seat tube in upside-down, you can pretty much rule it out.

024 is a possibility. It is 0.1mm thicker than 022 in the post end and would normally take a 27.0mm post. Magny V also uses a 27.0mm post. However, the best candidate is 025, which would use a 26.8mm post.

In case you are not familiar with it, 025 was also known as Super Cyclist and was was a touring/commuting tubeset. It used a butted down in conjunction with plain gauge top and seat tubes, and had an advertised weight of 2470g.

No serial number is going make it hard to peg regarding a brand name. Pics would be helpful.

be110001

Thanks for the help so far, I appreciate it.

I'll get the pics posted once I can trim their size down some to get them under the byte limit.

T-Mar, I kind of had a feeling that it might be a touring frame, given the copious tire clearance and the heavier gauge tubing, but I wondered if the chainstay length might be a little short at 42.5cm for a tourer.

Thanks again.

T-Mar

It seems a bit shorter than normal, but I would hesitate to judge the purpose of bicycle solely by the chainstay length. This can vary quite a bit depending on the manufacturer and/or year. For instance, a study of 30 grand touring models from 1984 shows chainstays varying in length from 43.0 - 45.7cm. And the venerable Miyata 1000 which entered the 1980s with 43cm chainstays, saw them grow by 2cm in 1983.

You really beed to look at the whole picture, including things like angles, frame features and components. Even then it can often be difficult, depending on the designer and intended market.

crumbling

Hi
I see the Ishiwata ID on the Steerer tube is 4 D. Tange use an ID system that is similar but 4 D would mean 1984 April. Thus the Ishiwata dating if the same would make this a 1984 + bike unless Ishiwata used the Japanese Imperial dating for the year.
If so the year 4 represents either 1979 or or 1989 in the Julian calender. Does anybody know for certain the dating system Ishiwata used. Refer to The Bicycle Info Project: Technical manuals home page for a 1979 and 1980 Ishiwata tubing catalogues that may help. I have used the 1979 version to identify my Schwinn as a pre 1979 Ishiwata MTB tubed frame. As the date is recorded with the Ishiwata name does this also indicate the date of manufacture of the tubing not necessarily of the frame from the tubing as I cannot find reference to Ishiwata building frames.

crumbling

danco

My Ishiwata 024
Used on my 1982 Ross Super Gran Tour accepts a 27.0 Seat post.
Trek also used Ishiwata until the currency exchange rate made the Japanese "Chromoly" prices too expensive.

unworthy1

My JP frame built with Ishiwata 024 also takes a 27.0 post...but you guys realize this is a (zombie) thread started in 2007 and last updated 2014 (until today, that is)?