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A question on frame material eras

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A question on frame material eras

Old 07-30-19, 07:09 PM
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A question on frame material eras

I'm well aware of the bike boom era frames made of gas pipe. What was being used before the boom? Were there lower quality steels or was it a matter of 531 (for example) being butted or plain gauge that marked it's level in the hierarchy?

Just a question out of general curiosity.
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Old 07-30-19, 07:53 PM
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The farther back in history you go, the thicker the "gas pipe" was. I believe 531 came out in the 30's for use in aircraft, and was much more exclusive back then.
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Old 07-30-19, 08:05 PM
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We use the term gas pipe metaphorically. It's not actual gas pipe. Well, you probably know that. And it's a bit too pejorative, as there are plenty of good bikes made of ordinary carbon steel. There is an implication that Reynolds 531 or 4130 chrome-moly is worlds better than carbon steel. The real difference, as far as I understand, is that carbon steel is a bit weaker. Reynolds 531 and metals like it allow you to use thinner material without sacrificing strength. The result is a lighter frame. And the difference in weight is quite small. Some need their frames that bit lighter, so it's not stupid to want it, but the difference for most of us is fairly small.
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Old 07-30-19, 09:09 PM
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It's really just about overall weight. Early 1970's Fuji high tensile (Ishiwata) steel frames were surprisingly light. So were some of the old original 1960's English (Reynolds) steel frames. It wasn't until the late 70's & early 80's that bike manufacturers started putting steel type frame labels all over bikes. Remember, all forms of steel are some type of alloy. Before 1970, you pretty much had the two finger rule. If you could lift the bike off the ground with two fingers it was a lightweight race bike. If not, then it was just another piece of junk. Schwinn only made one two finger bike back then (Paramount). Peugeot, Raleigh, Bottecchia and, Gitane made way more.The Italians made the most (Columbus).
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Old 07-30-19, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by The_Joe
I'm well aware of the bike boom era frames made of gas pipe. What was being used before the boom? Were there lower quality steels or was it a matter of 531 (for example) being butted or plain gauge that marked it's level in the hierarchy?
Just a question out of general curiosity.
With Reynolds, you had various grades of hi-ten A, B and AA and H.M. (high manganese), the predecessor to 531. Butting was invented prior to 531, so you had plain gauge and butted versions. Other companies like Columbus or A&P use crmo. 531, especially butted 531 was reserved for special frames. The typical roadsters of the day used what is pejoratively known as gas pipe. Not all hi-tensile or plain "carbon steels" as some put it are the same, and can vary in the amount of carbon, the main alloying element in steel, and impurities like P and S.

Originally Posted by Hudson308
The farther back in history you go, the thicker the "gas pipe" was. I believe 531 came out in the 30's for use in aircraft, and was much more exclusive back then.
531 was the name of the bicycle tubeset which came out in 1935. After combing through Reynold's various published histories, it's clear that they claim it has something to do with the the company's involvement in aeronautic steel tubing, but what exactly that link is is unclear.

Originally Posted by noglider
We use the term gas pipe metaphorically. It's not actual gas pipe. Well, you probably know that. And it's a bit too pejorative, as there are plenty of good bikes made of ordinary carbon steel. There is an implication that Reynolds 531 or 4130 chrome-moly is worlds better than carbon steel. The real difference, as far as I understand, is that carbon steel is a bit weaker. Reynolds 531 and metals like it allow you to use thinner material without sacrificing strength. The result is a lighter frame. And the difference in weight is quite small. Some need their frames that bit lighter, so it's not stupid to want it, but the difference for most of us is fairly small.
It's more than a bit in some cases and there's a range even for "ordinary carbon steel." Some hi-ten is worse than other hi-ten. The following is a list of UTS in ton/sq.in:

Hi-tensile plain carbon steels:
1010 (ordinary carbon steel for welded tubes) - 22
Reynolds B - 28
1020 (ordinary carbon steel for DOM tubes) - 33
Reynolds A - 35
-----------------------------------------------------------
Alloy steels:
Reynolds H.M. - 45
4130 (normalized) - 49
Reynolds 531 - 50
Heat treated 531 - 75

The modern air hardening and stainless steels are even stronger. 853 is something like 100 and 953 is something like 145. These numbers don't reflect strength after brazing/welding either which doesn't affect all alloys equally. One of 531's touted advantages was superior strength and fatigue resistance (yes, steel does fatigue for anyone that heard otherwise) after brazing, and the thinner butted fork blades gave a superior ride quality. Many cyclists prefer the feel of a lighter lively frame. A 531DB tubeset is around 30% lighter than something like Reynolds B which is rather considerable in relative terms, even if it's only a pound and a half for a frameset in absolute terms. Reynolds B wasn't bottom of the barrel either. The thing is that with bicycles, a pound here and a pound there somehow leads to the difference between a 20lb racing bike and a 40lb anchor. It's a collective effort spread across all the components that make up a bike.

Originally Posted by ramzilla
It's really just about overall weight. Early 1970's Fuji high tensile (Ishiwata) steel frames were surprisingly light. So were some of the old original 1960's English (Reynolds) steel frames. It wasn't until the late 70's & early 80's that bike manufacturers started putting steel type frame labels all over bikes. Remember, all forms of steel are some type of alloy. Before 1970, you pretty much had the two finger rule. If you could lift the bike off the ground with two fingers it was a lightweight race bike. If not, then it was just another piece of junk. Schwinn only made one two finger bike back then (Paramount). Peugeot, Raleigh, Bottecchia and, Gitane made way more.The Italians made the most (Columbus).
Normal 531 main tubes were the same gauge in the 40's as it was in the 70's and 80's. In fact some of the tubes like the stays seemed to have increased in weight by the 70's. While the practice of coming up with marketing names and stickers for every low end steel might have kicked into full gear then, the practice certainly started much early. Reynolds decals date back to at least the 20's. Even hi-ten steel got labels such as on Raleigh Sports (back when they were considered relatively light) in the 50's, maybe earlier.
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Old 07-31-19, 12:47 AM
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I have 6 classic swiss 3 speeds with almost exactly the same components and same frame size. 5 of them are gas pipe. They weigh 17-18kg. One is reynolds 531 and weighs 16kg.
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Old 07-31-19, 01:47 AM
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High Tension Steel

@Kuromori Very good, saves me a lot of writing.

I'll add a few things to the mix:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HIGH TENSION STEEL!!!

The proper term is High Tensile Steel and it came into use in the late 1800's when steel industries around the world began producing economically affordable steel for everyday use.

High Tension Steel is a Jinglish term that some Japanese translator came up with during the US bike boom, marketers picked up on it!!!

High Tension refers to high voltage power lines with the wires strung under "High Tension"...



High Tensile Steel is a marketing term that goes back to the late 1800's. There are NO technical specifications for High Tensile Steel, it's a meaningless term like: Heat Treated, Hot Rolled, Cold Rolled and even Low, Medium and High Carbon Steels.

Steel didn't become economically feasible to produce until the 1880's. BITD of high wheelers and safety bikes tubes made of soft iron where used. Those tubes had 1/3 to 1/2 the tensile strength of steel tubing coming onto the market. The iron tubes had to be thicker, therefore heavier. Steel allowed the tubing to be thinner thus lighter - and much stronger.

Alloy steels didn't become common until after the 1900's. Before that the strength of Carbon Steel was manipulated by the percentage of Carbon beginning with about 0.5% and going up to 0.70%.

Lower carbon steels were malleable, soft and weak. The more carbon content the harder and stronger the steel could be worked or heat treated to. 0.70% is the highest amount of carbon that can be alloyed with iron in plain carbon steels. Carbon steel cutlery is usually made of .70% carbon steels. Alloy steels can utilize higher levers of carbon which bonds with the alloying elements to manipulate strength and hardenability.

Aside from strength and hardenability, the primary feature of alloys steels over plain carbon steels is much higher fatigue resistance. Alloy steel tubing can be made thinner and lighter because under normal cycling use it will be less likely to fail.

Here's a comparison put out by Reynolds showing pre and post brazing tensile strengths of High Tensile Steel, 4130 CroMo Steel, Reynolds 501, 531 and 753. Note: Reynolds 501 was made of 4130 alloy steel so there's some bull pucky being disseminated by Reynolds Marketing!



This chart was published by Fred DeLong in 1974-76. It shows differences in strength between the cheapest "gas pipe" tubing, Reynold B Quality, A Quality, 531, 753 plus Columbus and other brands.


DOUBLE BUTTING is another misused term. On most bike frames on the top tube and down tube were double butted. The rest of the tubes were single butted, taper or straight gauge. Tange and Ishiwata started selling tube sets with double butted seat tubes and many Japanese bikes came with them.


BTW, the German steel company Mannesmann got a patent for seamless tubing in 1888, a year before Reynolds.


Thank you for putting up with my rant. I wanted to destroy some myths and misinformation. There's a lot more but I'm not writing a book....

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8b3ee575b1.jpg


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Old 07-31-19, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by verktyg
0.70% is the highest amount of carbon that can be alloyed with iron in plain carbon steels. Carbon steel cutlery is usually made of .70% carbon steels. Alloy steels can utilize higher levers of carbon which bonds with the alloying elements to manipulate strength and hardenability.
Actually there are some very plain carbon cutlery steels that have ~1.3% C (Hitachi White #1 ). A good plain carbon steel for cutlery will have in excess of 0.8% C because at that point the steel will form cementite (iron carbide) instead of ferrite (iron). For example, Old Hickory, which makes very basic knives, uses 1095 which is 0.95% C. Cutlery steels in the range of 0.7% C are generally either repurposed spring steels or stainless. However, with the exception of ball bearings and cogs, bicycles generally do not benefit from the increased hardening response or higher carbide content from high carbon steels as the brittleness associated with high hardness is detrimental and the wear resistance from carbides unnecessary.

Originally Posted by verktyg
Thank you for putting up with my rant. I wanted to destroy some myths and misinformation. There's a lot more but I'm not writing a book....
Speaking of which I forgot to link my 531 pamphlet earlier. https://kuromori.home.blog/reynolds-531/

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Old 07-31-19, 05:02 AM
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Fantastic!

Thank you, everyone. I knew I could count on you all for a wealth of history.

This all started because a friend of mine bought a 60s Hercules the other day and I was unsure what was typically used back then. My limited knowledge on the subject only went as far back as a 70s UO-8 I used to own.
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Old 07-31-19, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by verktyg
[MENTION=494559]

High Tension refers to high voltage power lines with the wires strung under "High Tension"...



verktyg
Great post, however, "high tension" refers to the potential voltage difference of the electricity carried by the cables and not their tautness.

In a nutshell, high tension = high voltage.
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Old 07-31-19, 09:21 AM
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I'm glad folks who know more than I do corrected me.
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Old 07-31-19, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ramzilla
It's really just about overall weight. Early 1970's Fuji high tensile (Ishiwata) steel frames were surprisingly light. So were some of the old original 1960's English (Reynolds) steel frames. It wasn't until the late 70's & early 80's that bike manufacturers started putting steel type frame labels all over bikes. Remember, all forms of steel are some type of alloy. Before 1970, you pretty much had the two finger rule. If you could lift the bike off the ground with two fingers it was a lightweight race bike. If not, then it was just another piece of junk. Schwinn only made one two finger bike back then (Paramount). Peugeot, Raleigh, Bottecchia and, Gitane made way more.The Italians made the most (Columbus).
As soon as Reynolds tubing was used by frame builders in the 1930s the decals became a standard. Accles & Pollock followed suit with their "Kromo" steel. There were a plethora of different decals to denote whether it was just the main tubes, or whether plain gauge or butted tubing was used, etc... When Reynolds or Accles & Pollock tubing wasn't used many British manufacturers even made up their own "high tensile" decals, such as what Raleigh did with the Gran Sport models in the early 1960s. I've also seen many French frames with Reynolds tubing or other sorts labeled all the way back into the 1950s at least.

Reynolds tubing transfers

Last edited by Kilroy1988; 07-31-19 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 07-31-19, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilroy1988
As soon as Reynolds tubing was used by frame builders in the 1930s the decals became a standard. Accles & Pollock followed suit with their "Kromo" steel. There were a plethora of different decals to denote whether it was just the main tubes, or whether plain gauge or butted tubing was used, etc... When Reynolds or Accles & Pollock tubing wasn't used many British manufacturers even made up their own "high tensile" decals, such as what Raleigh did with the Gran Sport models in the early 1960s. I've also seen many French frames with Reynolds tubing or other sorts labeled all the way back into the 1950s at least.

Reynolds tubing transfers
Great to know. I was unsure if high tensile steel only came into popularity with the bike boom of the 70s. As if all bikes were finely made machines until they needed to cut costs just to get more people riding bikes.
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Old 07-31-19, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by The_Joe
Great to know. I was unsure if high tensile steel only came into popularity with the bike boom of the 70s. As if all bikes were finely made machines until they needed to cut costs just to get more people riding bikes.
"High tensile" is what you call your steel when you don't have anything else good to say about it.
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Old 07-31-19, 04:59 PM
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1020 is pretty common, but Raleigh sold a lot of 2030 bikes.

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Old 07-31-19, 05:11 PM
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I hope everyone is aware that yield strength is normally higher in importance that ultimate tensile strength. If the yield strength is exceeded during operation, then the component will not return to its original shape, and operation and/or performance of the machine will be impaired, perhaps to an unacceptable degree in the scenario of limping to a repair site. Ultimate strength, UTS, is the stress at which the component will fracture, which can be obviously quite dangerous if it occurs while riding. Typically, the higher performance the material, steels included, the smaller the difference between the yield strength and UTS. This increases the probability of a catastrophic failure under riding, road or collision loads. We have all seen photos and videos of such failures that occurred in competitive or other cycling.
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Old 07-31-19, 06:29 PM
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On a somewhat similar topic, can anyone enlighten me about the weight difference in similar size bikes, one with plain gauge 531 and one with double butted 531? I don't need down to the gram, but would the difference be a couple of ounces, a half pound, etc. I know there are other things such as ride quality attached to butting, but I am mostly just interested in the weight.
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Old 07-31-19, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by old's'cool
I hope everyone is aware that yield strength is normally higher in importance that ultimate tensile strength. If the yield strength is exceeded during operation, then the component will not return to its original shape, and operation and/or performance of the machine will be impaired, perhaps to an unacceptable degree in the scenario of limping to a repair site. Ultimate strength, UTS, is the stress at which the component will fracture, which can be obviously quite dangerous if it occurs while riding. Typically, the higher performance the material, steels included, the smaller the difference between the yield strength and UTS. This increases the probability of a catastrophic failure under riding, road or collision loads. We have all seen photos and videos of such failures that occurred in competitive or other cycling.
Indeed it is, it's just that UTS is a bigger number and therefore the number used in marketing and the numbers that are readily available.
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Old 07-31-19, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by beicster
On a somewhat similar topic, can anyone enlighten me about the weight difference in similar size bikes, one with plain gauge 531 and one with double butted 531? I don't need down to the gram, but would the difference be a couple of ounces, a half pound, etc. I know there are other things such as ride quality attached to butting, but I am mostly just interested in the weight.
It depends on which gauge 531 it is. There were 3 thicknesses commonly available, 0.9, 0.8 and 0.7. Then there's the issue of stays and fittings. 0.7 main tubes would be maybe an ounce heavier, give or take, 0.9 about half a pound.
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Old 07-31-19, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by beicster
On a somewhat similar topic, can anyone enlighten me about the weight difference in similar size bikes, one with plain gauge 531 and one with double butted 531? I don't need down to the gram, but would the difference be a couple of ounces, a half pound, etc. I know there are other things such as ride quality attached to butting, but I am mostly just interested in the weight.
It's the two finger rule. You never know until you test them. Try to approach 20 pounds.
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Old 08-01-19, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Kuromori
It depends on which gauge 531 it is. There were 3 thicknesses commonly available, 0.9, 0.8 and 0.7. Then there's the issue of stays and fittings. 0.7 main tubes would be maybe an ounce heavier, give or take, 0.9 about half a pound.
Thanks. I appreciate it.

Originally Posted by ramzilla
It's the two finger rule. You never know until you test them. Try to approach 20 pounds.
I should clarify. I am interested in the weight differences because whenever I would hear double butted I thought "lightweight". When I heard plain gauge, I thought "heavy". I assigned a positive or negative value to the frame even though I did not actually know the difference. Somehow in my head it was huge, like several pounds worth. Since riding an old straight gauge 531 Super Course, I realized that I should not be so concerned with weight and be more concerned with how a bike rides. Besides, I could stand to drop more than the weight of several straight gauge frames off my own body before I worry about frame weight.
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Old 08-01-19, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by beicster

I should clarify. I am interested in the weight differences because whenever I would hear double butted I thought "lightweight". When I heard plain gauge, I thought "heavy". I assigned a positive or negative value to the frame even though I did not actually know the difference..
That's another good reason why I asked the question in the first place. When I first got into riding vintage bikes 10 or so years ago I only knew very basic stuff to look for. No derailleur hanger meant a "bad" bike. Stem shifters meant a "bad" bike...
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Old 08-01-19, 01:52 PM
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There's more to total bicycle weight than just the frame. Another important place to save weight is on the wheels and tires. And of course, components, cranksets, levers, pedals, seats etc., etc., etc. I would recommend that you purchase an inexpensive 0 to 50 pound luggage weight scale. Weigh a few bikes. IMHO steel bikes are not lightweight until they get below 22 pounds.
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Old 08-01-19, 04:57 PM
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The notion of pre-boom bicycles being"gas pipe" is somewhat exaggerated, though not unfounded. The first great bicycle boom occurred in the 1890s and the USA was at the forefront. Bicycle evolution was staggering during this period. Developing metallurgy led to stronger and lighter bicycles. Manufacturers were experimenting with new steel alloys and there were even aluminum frames, aluminum rims and aluminum components. High grade competition bicycles were routinely sub-20 lbs by the start of the 20th century, though these were still single speed, fixed gear.

However, the "boom" attracted more manufacturers to the industry and the increased competition led to a downward spiral in prices and market saturation, at least in Canada and the USA. By the very late 1890s, the boom was bust and many manufacturers went bankrupt or amalgamated. With the industry in jeopardy. the USA government stepped in and imposed heavy tariffs to protect the remaining USA manufacturers.

The industry recession in the wake of the bust all but killed off the high grade, adult bicycle in the USA market. Most consumers had taken advantage of the deflated prices and were not in need of a new bicycle. The industry initially tried to stir interest with a new "chainless" (i.e.. shaft drive) models but that failed. With consumer interest at a low and tariffs effectively keeping European developments out of the country, the remaining manufacturers, to a large extent, lost interest in further technological development. The manufacturers settled into a rut of inexpensive, low cost, heavy, coaster brake, roadsters.

The problem was compounded by early 20th century developments in the automobile. As automobile prices decreased, their sales increased, to the detriment of adult bicycle sales. By the Great War, the USA bicycle industry was primarily a children's market. The significant market development during the Great War was the male juvenile's interest in motorcycles. This prompted a cosmetic "Motorbike" era, which prompted manufacturers to add truss forks, double top tubes, faux gas tanks and other features to reflect motorcycle styling. The weight of bicycles ballooned under the influence.

The government tariffs started to ease after World War II. The first beneficiary was England, who was granted progressive relief in order to rebuild her bicycle industry and pay off war debts to the USA. This resulted in a post war influx of British 3 speeds and established companies like Raleigh in the USA. American servicemen had become familiar with the advantages of internally gears hubs while stationed in Britain during the war and provided a ready market after the war.

Tariffs for other countries started diminishing in the 1960s, leading to import of various European manufacturers and for many Americans, their first exposure to high grade, derailleur equipped bicycles. When the baby boomers outgrew their 1960s hi-riser bicycle and were looking for something new and exciting in the early 1970s, the "10 speed" was the obvious choice.

So, while butted, manganese-molybdenum, and chromium-molybdenum tubesets and derailleur bicycles go back several decades prior the ealy 1970s boom, they were largely unknown and unavailable in the USA, due to a disinterested industry that was protected by heavy tariffs. As the tariffs eased, European developments started appearing in the USA and USA manufacturers took note and followed suit. However, for over a half century, the USA industry was dominated by the heavy, coaster brake, roadster.
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Old 08-01-19, 07:03 PM
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63rickert
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Light gauge steel has been around a long time. Raleigh Record Ace was built with 22gauge Reynolds HM main tubes from 1938. 22 gauge is equivalent to 0.7mm, which would still be considered a light tube today (multiple posts above reverse order of which gauge is lighter, the thin tube is obviously lighter). I have handled a pre-World War I fork made in USA with externally butted blades that weighed under a pound. A fork that had been raced, not a display item.

While the larger consumer market in USA was heavy roadsters in the pre-war era, cycle sport was quite healthy in US. Six day racing in US was fully equal to the European branch of the sport. Six day, not road, was where the money was. US built bikes were light, many of them survive and ride quite well by any standard.
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