A question on frame material eras
#1
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A question on frame material eras
I'm well aware of the bike boom era frames made of gas pipe. What was being used before the boom? Were there lower quality steels or was it a matter of 531 (for example) being butted or plain gauge that marked it's level in the hierarchy?
Just a question out of general curiosity.
Just a question out of general curiosity.
#2
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The farther back in history you go, the thicker the "gas pipe" was. I believe 531 came out in the 30's for use in aircraft, and was much more exclusive back then.
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We use the term gas pipe metaphorically. It's not actual gas pipe. Well, you probably know that. And it's a bit too pejorative, as there are plenty of good bikes made of ordinary carbon steel. There is an implication that Reynolds 531 or 4130 chrome-moly is worlds better than carbon steel. The real difference, as far as I understand, is that carbon steel is a bit weaker. Reynolds 531 and metals like it allow you to use thinner material without sacrificing strength. The result is a lighter frame. And the difference in weight is quite small. Some need their frames that bit lighter, so it's not stupid to want it, but the difference for most of us is fairly small.
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#4
Senior Member
It's really just about overall weight. Early 1970's Fuji high tensile (Ishiwata) steel frames were surprisingly light. So were some of the old original 1960's English (Reynolds) steel frames. It wasn't until the late 70's & early 80's that bike manufacturers started putting steel type frame labels all over bikes. Remember, all forms of steel are some type of alloy. Before 1970, you pretty much had the two finger rule. If you could lift the bike off the ground with two fingers it was a lightweight race bike. If not, then it was just another piece of junk. Schwinn only made one two finger bike back then (Paramount). Peugeot, Raleigh, Bottecchia and, Gitane made way more.The Italians made the most (Columbus).
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I'm well aware of the bike boom era frames made of gas pipe. What was being used before the boom? Were there lower quality steels or was it a matter of 531 (for example) being butted or plain gauge that marked it's level in the hierarchy?
Just a question out of general curiosity.
Just a question out of general curiosity.
We use the term gas pipe metaphorically. It's not actual gas pipe. Well, you probably know that. And it's a bit too pejorative, as there are plenty of good bikes made of ordinary carbon steel. There is an implication that Reynolds 531 or 4130 chrome-moly is worlds better than carbon steel. The real difference, as far as I understand, is that carbon steel is a bit weaker. Reynolds 531 and metals like it allow you to use thinner material without sacrificing strength. The result is a lighter frame. And the difference in weight is quite small. Some need their frames that bit lighter, so it's not stupid to want it, but the difference for most of us is fairly small.
Hi-tensile plain carbon steels:
1010 (ordinary carbon steel for welded tubes) - 22
Reynolds B - 28
1020 (ordinary carbon steel for DOM tubes) - 33
Reynolds A - 35
-----------------------------------------------------------
Alloy steels:
Reynolds H.M. - 45
4130 (normalized) - 49
Reynolds 531 - 50
Heat treated 531 - 75
The modern air hardening and stainless steels are even stronger. 853 is something like 100 and 953 is something like 145. These numbers don't reflect strength after brazing/welding either which doesn't affect all alloys equally. One of 531's touted advantages was superior strength and fatigue resistance (yes, steel does fatigue for anyone that heard otherwise) after brazing, and the thinner butted fork blades gave a superior ride quality. Many cyclists prefer the feel of a lighter lively frame. A 531DB tubeset is around 30% lighter than something like Reynolds B which is rather considerable in relative terms, even if it's only a pound and a half for a frameset in absolute terms. Reynolds B wasn't bottom of the barrel either. The thing is that with bicycles, a pound here and a pound there somehow leads to the difference between a 20lb racing bike and a 40lb anchor. It's a collective effort spread across all the components that make up a bike.
It's really just about overall weight. Early 1970's Fuji high tensile (Ishiwata) steel frames were surprisingly light. So were some of the old original 1960's English (Reynolds) steel frames. It wasn't until the late 70's & early 80's that bike manufacturers started putting steel type frame labels all over bikes. Remember, all forms of steel are some type of alloy. Before 1970, you pretty much had the two finger rule. If you could lift the bike off the ground with two fingers it was a lightweight race bike. If not, then it was just another piece of junk. Schwinn only made one two finger bike back then (Paramount). Peugeot, Raleigh, Bottecchia and, Gitane made way more.The Italians made the most (Columbus).
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#6
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I have 6 classic swiss 3 speeds with almost exactly the same components and same frame size. 5 of them are gas pipe. They weigh 17-18kg. One is reynolds 531 and weighs 16kg.
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High Tension Steel
@Kuromori Very good, saves me a lot of writing.
I'll add a few things to the mix:
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HIGH TENSION STEEL!!!
The proper term is High Tensile Steel and it came into use in the late 1800's when steel industries around the world began producing economically affordable steel for everyday use.
High Tension Steel is a Jinglish term that some Japanese translator came up with during the US bike boom, marketers picked up on it!!!
High Tension refers to high voltage power lines with the wires strung under "High Tension"...
High Tensile Steel is a marketing term that goes back to the late 1800's. There are NO technical specifications for High Tensile Steel, it's a meaningless term like: Heat Treated, Hot Rolled, Cold Rolled and even Low, Medium and High Carbon Steels.
Steel didn't become economically feasible to produce until the 1880's. BITD of high wheelers and safety bikes tubes made of soft iron where used. Those tubes had 1/3 to 1/2 the tensile strength of steel tubing coming onto the market. The iron tubes had to be thicker, therefore heavier. Steel allowed the tubing to be thinner thus lighter - and much stronger.
Alloy steels didn't become common until after the 1900's. Before that the strength of Carbon Steel was manipulated by the percentage of Carbon beginning with about 0.5% and going up to 0.70%.
Lower carbon steels were malleable, soft and weak. The more carbon content the harder and stronger the steel could be worked or heat treated to. 0.70% is the highest amount of carbon that can be alloyed with iron in plain carbon steels. Carbon steel cutlery is usually made of .70% carbon steels. Alloy steels can utilize higher levers of carbon which bonds with the alloying elements to manipulate strength and hardenability.
Aside from strength and hardenability, the primary feature of alloys steels over plain carbon steels is much higher fatigue resistance. Alloy steel tubing can be made thinner and lighter because under normal cycling use it will be less likely to fail.
Here's a comparison put out by Reynolds showing pre and post brazing tensile strengths of High Tensile Steel, 4130 CroMo Steel, Reynolds 501, 531 and 753. Note: Reynolds 501 was made of 4130 alloy steel so there's some bull pucky being disseminated by Reynolds Marketing!
This chart was published by Fred DeLong in 1974-76. It shows differences in strength between the cheapest "gas pipe" tubing, Reynold B Quality, A Quality, 531, 753 plus Columbus and other brands.
DOUBLE BUTTING is another misused term. On most bike frames on the top tube and down tube were double butted. The rest of the tubes were single butted, taper or straight gauge. Tange and Ishiwata started selling tube sets with double butted seat tubes and many Japanese bikes came with them.
BTW, the German steel company Mannesmann got a patent for seamless tubing in 1888, a year before Reynolds.
Thank you for putting up with my rant. I wanted to destroy some myths and misinformation. There's a lot more but I'm not writing a book....
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8b3ee575b1.jpg
verktyg
I'll add a few things to the mix:
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HIGH TENSION STEEL!!!
The proper term is High Tensile Steel and it came into use in the late 1800's when steel industries around the world began producing economically affordable steel for everyday use.
High Tension Steel is a Jinglish term that some Japanese translator came up with during the US bike boom, marketers picked up on it!!!
High Tension refers to high voltage power lines with the wires strung under "High Tension"...
High Tensile Steel is a marketing term that goes back to the late 1800's. There are NO technical specifications for High Tensile Steel, it's a meaningless term like: Heat Treated, Hot Rolled, Cold Rolled and even Low, Medium and High Carbon Steels.
Steel didn't become economically feasible to produce until the 1880's. BITD of high wheelers and safety bikes tubes made of soft iron where used. Those tubes had 1/3 to 1/2 the tensile strength of steel tubing coming onto the market. The iron tubes had to be thicker, therefore heavier. Steel allowed the tubing to be thinner thus lighter - and much stronger.
Alloy steels didn't become common until after the 1900's. Before that the strength of Carbon Steel was manipulated by the percentage of Carbon beginning with about 0.5% and going up to 0.70%.
Lower carbon steels were malleable, soft and weak. The more carbon content the harder and stronger the steel could be worked or heat treated to. 0.70% is the highest amount of carbon that can be alloyed with iron in plain carbon steels. Carbon steel cutlery is usually made of .70% carbon steels. Alloy steels can utilize higher levers of carbon which bonds with the alloying elements to manipulate strength and hardenability.
Aside from strength and hardenability, the primary feature of alloys steels over plain carbon steels is much higher fatigue resistance. Alloy steel tubing can be made thinner and lighter because under normal cycling use it will be less likely to fail.
Here's a comparison put out by Reynolds showing pre and post brazing tensile strengths of High Tensile Steel, 4130 CroMo Steel, Reynolds 501, 531 and 753. Note: Reynolds 501 was made of 4130 alloy steel so there's some bull pucky being disseminated by Reynolds Marketing!
This chart was published by Fred DeLong in 1974-76. It shows differences in strength between the cheapest "gas pipe" tubing, Reynold B Quality, A Quality, 531, 753 plus Columbus and other brands.
DOUBLE BUTTING is another misused term. On most bike frames on the top tube and down tube were double butted. The rest of the tubes were single butted, taper or straight gauge. Tange and Ishiwata started selling tube sets with double butted seat tubes and many Japanese bikes came with them.
BTW, the German steel company Mannesmann got a patent for seamless tubing in 1888, a year before Reynolds.
Thank you for putting up with my rant. I wanted to destroy some myths and misinformation. There's a lot more but I'm not writing a book....
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8b3ee575b1.jpg
verktyg
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Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Last edited by unterhausen; 07-31-19 at 05:34 AM. Reason: broke image tags because of obscenity
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0.70% is the highest amount of carbon that can be alloyed with iron in plain carbon steels. Carbon steel cutlery is usually made of .70% carbon steels. Alloy steels can utilize higher levers of carbon which bonds with the alloying elements to manipulate strength and hardenability.
Last edited by Kuromori; 07-31-19 at 03:35 AM.
#9
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Thread Starter
Fantastic!
Thank you, everyone. I knew I could count on you all for a wealth of history.
This all started because a friend of mine bought a 60s Hercules the other day and I was unsure what was typically used back then. My limited knowledge on the subject only went as far back as a 70s UO-8 I used to own.
Thank you, everyone. I knew I could count on you all for a wealth of history.
This all started because a friend of mine bought a 60s Hercules the other day and I was unsure what was typically used back then. My limited knowledge on the subject only went as far back as a 70s UO-8 I used to own.
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In a nutshell, high tension = high voltage.
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#11
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I'm glad folks who know more than I do corrected me.
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
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It's really just about overall weight. Early 1970's Fuji high tensile (Ishiwata) steel frames were surprisingly light. So were some of the old original 1960's English (Reynolds) steel frames. It wasn't until the late 70's & early 80's that bike manufacturers started putting steel type frame labels all over bikes. Remember, all forms of steel are some type of alloy. Before 1970, you pretty much had the two finger rule. If you could lift the bike off the ground with two fingers it was a lightweight race bike. If not, then it was just another piece of junk. Schwinn only made one two finger bike back then (Paramount). Peugeot, Raleigh, Bottecchia and, Gitane made way more.The Italians made the most (Columbus).
Reynolds tubing transfers
Last edited by Kilroy1988; 07-31-19 at 01:34 PM.
#13
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Thread Starter
As soon as Reynolds tubing was used by frame builders in the 1930s the decals became a standard. Accles & Pollock followed suit with their "Kromo" steel. There were a plethora of different decals to denote whether it was just the main tubes, or whether plain gauge or butted tubing was used, etc... When Reynolds or Accles & Pollock tubing wasn't used many British manufacturers even made up their own "high tensile" decals, such as what Raleigh did with the Gran Sport models in the early 1960s. I've also seen many French frames with Reynolds tubing or other sorts labeled all the way back into the 1950s at least.
Reynolds tubing transfers
Reynolds tubing transfers
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"High tensile" is what you call your steel when you don't have anything else good to say about it.
#15
Death fork? Naaaah!!
1020 is pretty common, but Raleigh sold a lot of 2030 bikes.
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I hope everyone is aware that yield strength is normally higher in importance that ultimate tensile strength. If the yield strength is exceeded during operation, then the component will not return to its original shape, and operation and/or performance of the machine will be impaired, perhaps to an unacceptable degree in the scenario of limping to a repair site. Ultimate strength, UTS, is the stress at which the component will fracture, which can be obviously quite dangerous if it occurs while riding. Typically, the higher performance the material, steels included, the smaller the difference between the yield strength and UTS. This increases the probability of a catastrophic failure under riding, road or collision loads. We have all seen photos and videos of such failures that occurred in competitive or other cycling.
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On a somewhat similar topic, can anyone enlighten me about the weight difference in similar size bikes, one with plain gauge 531 and one with double butted 531? I don't need down to the gram, but would the difference be a couple of ounces, a half pound, etc. I know there are other things such as ride quality attached to butting, but I am mostly just interested in the weight.
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I hope everyone is aware that yield strength is normally higher in importance that ultimate tensile strength. If the yield strength is exceeded during operation, then the component will not return to its original shape, and operation and/or performance of the machine will be impaired, perhaps to an unacceptable degree in the scenario of limping to a repair site. Ultimate strength, UTS, is the stress at which the component will fracture, which can be obviously quite dangerous if it occurs while riding. Typically, the higher performance the material, steels included, the smaller the difference between the yield strength and UTS. This increases the probability of a catastrophic failure under riding, road or collision loads. We have all seen photos and videos of such failures that occurred in competitive or other cycling.
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On a somewhat similar topic, can anyone enlighten me about the weight difference in similar size bikes, one with plain gauge 531 and one with double butted 531? I don't need down to the gram, but would the difference be a couple of ounces, a half pound, etc. I know there are other things such as ride quality attached to butting, but I am mostly just interested in the weight.
#20
Senior Member
On a somewhat similar topic, can anyone enlighten me about the weight difference in similar size bikes, one with plain gauge 531 and one with double butted 531? I don't need down to the gram, but would the difference be a couple of ounces, a half pound, etc. I know there are other things such as ride quality attached to butting, but I am mostly just interested in the weight.
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I should clarify. I am interested in the weight differences because whenever I would hear double butted I thought "lightweight". When I heard plain gauge, I thought "heavy". I assigned a positive or negative value to the frame even though I did not actually know the difference. Somehow in my head it was huge, like several pounds worth. Since riding an old straight gauge 531 Super Course, I realized that I should not be so concerned with weight and be more concerned with how a bike rides. Besides, I could stand to drop more than the weight of several straight gauge frames off my own body before I worry about frame weight.
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#22
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I should clarify. I am interested in the weight differences because whenever I would hear double butted I thought "lightweight". When I heard plain gauge, I thought "heavy". I assigned a positive or negative value to the frame even though I did not actually know the difference..
#23
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There's more to total bicycle weight than just the frame. Another important place to save weight is on the wheels and tires. And of course, components, cranksets, levers, pedals, seats etc., etc., etc. I would recommend that you purchase an inexpensive 0 to 50 pound luggage weight scale. Weigh a few bikes. IMHO steel bikes are not lightweight until they get below 22 pounds.
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The notion of pre-boom bicycles being"gas pipe" is somewhat exaggerated, though not unfounded. The first great bicycle boom occurred in the 1890s and the USA was at the forefront. Bicycle evolution was staggering during this period. Developing metallurgy led to stronger and lighter bicycles. Manufacturers were experimenting with new steel alloys and there were even aluminum frames, aluminum rims and aluminum components. High grade competition bicycles were routinely sub-20 lbs by the start of the 20th century, though these were still single speed, fixed gear.
However, the "boom" attracted more manufacturers to the industry and the increased competition led to a downward spiral in prices and market saturation, at least in Canada and the USA. By the very late 1890s, the boom was bust and many manufacturers went bankrupt or amalgamated. With the industry in jeopardy. the USA government stepped in and imposed heavy tariffs to protect the remaining USA manufacturers.
The industry recession in the wake of the bust all but killed off the high grade, adult bicycle in the USA market. Most consumers had taken advantage of the deflated prices and were not in need of a new bicycle. The industry initially tried to stir interest with a new "chainless" (i.e.. shaft drive) models but that failed. With consumer interest at a low and tariffs effectively keeping European developments out of the country, the remaining manufacturers, to a large extent, lost interest in further technological development. The manufacturers settled into a rut of inexpensive, low cost, heavy, coaster brake, roadsters.
The problem was compounded by early 20th century developments in the automobile. As automobile prices decreased, their sales increased, to the detriment of adult bicycle sales. By the Great War, the USA bicycle industry was primarily a children's market. The significant market development during the Great War was the male juvenile's interest in motorcycles. This prompted a cosmetic "Motorbike" era, which prompted manufacturers to add truss forks, double top tubes, faux gas tanks and other features to reflect motorcycle styling. The weight of bicycles ballooned under the influence.
The government tariffs started to ease after World War II. The first beneficiary was England, who was granted progressive relief in order to rebuild her bicycle industry and pay off war debts to the USA. This resulted in a post war influx of British 3 speeds and established companies like Raleigh in the USA. American servicemen had become familiar with the advantages of internally gears hubs while stationed in Britain during the war and provided a ready market after the war.
Tariffs for other countries started diminishing in the 1960s, leading to import of various European manufacturers and for many Americans, their first exposure to high grade, derailleur equipped bicycles. When the baby boomers outgrew their 1960s hi-riser bicycle and were looking for something new and exciting in the early 1970s, the "10 speed" was the obvious choice.
So, while butted, manganese-molybdenum, and chromium-molybdenum tubesets and derailleur bicycles go back several decades prior the ealy 1970s boom, they were largely unknown and unavailable in the USA, due to a disinterested industry that was protected by heavy tariffs. As the tariffs eased, European developments started appearing in the USA and USA manufacturers took note and followed suit. However, for over a half century, the USA industry was dominated by the heavy, coaster brake, roadster.
However, the "boom" attracted more manufacturers to the industry and the increased competition led to a downward spiral in prices and market saturation, at least in Canada and the USA. By the very late 1890s, the boom was bust and many manufacturers went bankrupt or amalgamated. With the industry in jeopardy. the USA government stepped in and imposed heavy tariffs to protect the remaining USA manufacturers.
The industry recession in the wake of the bust all but killed off the high grade, adult bicycle in the USA market. Most consumers had taken advantage of the deflated prices and were not in need of a new bicycle. The industry initially tried to stir interest with a new "chainless" (i.e.. shaft drive) models but that failed. With consumer interest at a low and tariffs effectively keeping European developments out of the country, the remaining manufacturers, to a large extent, lost interest in further technological development. The manufacturers settled into a rut of inexpensive, low cost, heavy, coaster brake, roadsters.
The problem was compounded by early 20th century developments in the automobile. As automobile prices decreased, their sales increased, to the detriment of adult bicycle sales. By the Great War, the USA bicycle industry was primarily a children's market. The significant market development during the Great War was the male juvenile's interest in motorcycles. This prompted a cosmetic "Motorbike" era, which prompted manufacturers to add truss forks, double top tubes, faux gas tanks and other features to reflect motorcycle styling. The weight of bicycles ballooned under the influence.
The government tariffs started to ease after World War II. The first beneficiary was England, who was granted progressive relief in order to rebuild her bicycle industry and pay off war debts to the USA. This resulted in a post war influx of British 3 speeds and established companies like Raleigh in the USA. American servicemen had become familiar with the advantages of internally gears hubs while stationed in Britain during the war and provided a ready market after the war.
Tariffs for other countries started diminishing in the 1960s, leading to import of various European manufacturers and for many Americans, their first exposure to high grade, derailleur equipped bicycles. When the baby boomers outgrew their 1960s hi-riser bicycle and were looking for something new and exciting in the early 1970s, the "10 speed" was the obvious choice.
So, while butted, manganese-molybdenum, and chromium-molybdenum tubesets and derailleur bicycles go back several decades prior the ealy 1970s boom, they were largely unknown and unavailable in the USA, due to a disinterested industry that was protected by heavy tariffs. As the tariffs eased, European developments started appearing in the USA and USA manufacturers took note and followed suit. However, for over a half century, the USA industry was dominated by the heavy, coaster brake, roadster.
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#25
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Light gauge steel has been around a long time. Raleigh Record Ace was built with 22gauge Reynolds HM main tubes from 1938. 22 gauge is equivalent to 0.7mm, which would still be considered a light tube today (multiple posts above reverse order of which gauge is lighter, the thin tube is obviously lighter). I have handled a pre-World War I fork made in USA with externally butted blades that weighed under a pound. A fork that had been raced, not a display item.
While the larger consumer market in USA was heavy roadsters in the pre-war era, cycle sport was quite healthy in US. Six day racing in US was fully equal to the European branch of the sport. Six day, not road, was where the money was. US built bikes were light, many of them survive and ride quite well by any standard.
While the larger consumer market in USA was heavy roadsters in the pre-war era, cycle sport was quite healthy in US. Six day racing in US was fully equal to the European branch of the sport. Six day, not road, was where the money was. US built bikes were light, many of them survive and ride quite well by any standard.