terrymorse 

Straw man argument aside, I see an implication that cadence is determined by a person's distribution of muscle fiber types. But is that actually the case?

I'd say maybe, and here's why —

If: the goal of cadence selection is to avoid muscle fatigue, and muscle fatigue is reduced when pedal force can be exerted exclusively by the type 1 (slow-twitch) muscle fibers, without having to recruit the more quickly fatigued type 2 (fast-twitch) fibers;

Then: cyclists with lots of type 1 fibers can put more force into pedaling without calling upon their type 2 fibers, meaning they can mash a lower cadence without getting tired;

But: at some point, the road turns up or the pace quickens, and even cyclists with lots of type 1 muscle can avoid fatigue longer by lifting their cadence.

livedarklions

To be clear, I am not claiming to average 25 mph, but I do routinely hit it in the flat. I can sustain 23 mph for several miles, but my easy steady pace is more in the 20-22 mph range. These numbers have been going up in the past few months, which I am a bit surprised by at age 58.

livedarklions

It's pretty clear that many if not most people have a different cadence for hills and flats. I generally stay in the high gear in the flat, and when I want to speed up, I just pedal the big gear faster. No question I'm recruiting the fast twitch at that point, but the type 1 muscle doesn't become fatigued as a result. I do gear down a bit for hills, but I don't think I do so as much as most people.

I admit I geared down slightly in the flat between miles 115 and 124 today, but that's because I was dealing with a lot of stop lights, and the repeated acceleration slow down cycle was wearing on me. I recovered and flew through the last 16 miles in the high gear as there were very few stops.

terrymorse 

And when you speed up without changing gears, you increase your cadence.

Dirt Farmer

Hey, were we separated at birth?!?? That's me!

HTupolev

Not that I'd agree with 63rickert's overall argument, but...

Eddy Merckx used a 52-14 gear in his hour record attempt, resulting in an average cadence of around 104rpm. He wasn't a masher.

He often had a very low cadence on mountainous climbs, but this was purely a consequence of racing drivetrains of the day being very narrow-range. If he'd had lower gears, he would have used them.
(Similarly, since his racing bike frequently had a top-end gear of only ~52-13, he sometimes spun very high cadences if someone was drilling the pace on a shallow downhill.
I run into the same thing when I use vintage bikes on modern group rides. Some of my friends get the idea that I'm an extreme spinner because I'll sometimes be doing 140rpm in the 52-14, but it's mostly just me being out of gears.)

livedarklions

I wasn't disagreeing with you, just explaining how I do vary my cadence in the same gear. See title of thread.

livedarklions

I didn't say he was a masher. I said he used a big gear.

HTupolev

But he didn't. He used fairly ordinary race gearing for the time, which had a much lower top-end than today's road race gearing.

And if we're talking about self-selected cadence, "used a big gear" doesn't mean anything outside of a speed-relative sense. I'm hardly "using a big gear" when I'm descending in a 52-14

63rickert

Slow twitch/fast twitch has nothing whatsoever to do with ability to ride at any particular cadence. Whoever told you that does not know one thing about physiology.

63rickert

You did 140 miles today, solo. I am impressed. Really. You did it at age 58. Very impressed. This is an internet discussion and that's all it is. Nothing I said or would say takes one thing away from you.

Eddy dominated. Eddy mashed. Eddy spun. Eddy had style at all times. With all his power he used a top of 53x13. When you saw him with a 57 that was together with 571 wheels.

The person who does 140 solo was never likely to spin. That has not changed. One big exception would be Lon Haldeman. I remember chatting with Lon while cruising 27mph in a small group in 52x16. Lon was in 42x16 fixed. When he was done chatting he just rocketed away from us, certainly above 30mph. But then Lon was totally exceptional. Any other solo long distance big man I can remember rode much as you say you do.

livedarklions

So now you just identified a class of rider who "was never likely to spin". I don't see how that's any different from saying we in that group have a lower natural cadence.

Also, just to be clear, the OP never mentioned racing and this is not the racing forum. In the context of the OP, 53 x 13 is a big gear. The OP did mention his size and that he wants to build endurance. Telling him to pick a style of riding because it doesn't promote getting big muscles doesn't strike me as good advice. My advice to OP remains the same: different cadences work for different people as do gear preferences, so ignore all the advice that you must do x, and try different cadence/gear combos and see what works for you.

livedarklions

He used the top end of that equipment, you're arguing semantics. No one's telling OP to get a giant chain ring.

As for your second point, I use it to mean big relative to the other gears on your bike, so pretty much everyone has to use a big gear if they want to pedal down a descent. It's so obvious that the only real choice in a significant descent is spin a big gear or coast, that it doesn't merit discussion.

As far as I am concerned, all the racing stuff is a bit of a thread hijack, OP isn't about racing.

livedarklions

Ability to, probably. Results from? You're just wrong. As you say, us big men distance riders use a lower cadence bigger gear. It's because we can apply greater torque per stroke aerobically than average, so this is a very efficient way of getting speed that allows for endurance. Our muscles are heavy, so the up stroke also costs us more energy than less-muscled people so spinning a lower gear doesn't work effeciently-it underuses the power of our muscles while maximizing the costs of lifting them. We're applying the torque over very long periods of time, and fast twitch muscle can't do that. Do the math, I am carrying a lot of slow twitch muscle.

I can spin a low gear, and I do so on hills or in a strong headwind, but if I ride like that most of the time, I just get slower with less endurance. I'm quite sure you could train me to ride worse than I do, but that's rather beside the point.

smontanaro 

WWES? "Neither a masher nor a spinner be."

bikehoco

How do you track your cadence?

63rickert

There appears to be some confusion about what muscle fibers are. Just riding along at 60 rpm is all slow twitch. Just riding along at 120rpm is all slow twitch. Riding training rollers at 200rpm is all slow twitch. One winter workout I used to do indoors was 60 seconds at 200rpm, cool down 60 seconds, 200 rpm again and repeat ten times. That would be wholly impossible if fast twitch fibers were involved at all.

Fast twitch fibers are for sprinting. How could anyone who rides at 60 or 70 or 80 rpm know about sprinting? It would be like trying to start a car in fourth gear. Sprinting from 90rpm sorta happens but there's a lot of lag, like starting up a big V8 in third gear. Those who pedal slow have never met their fast twitch fibers. Those who pedal slow have large areas of cycling experience closed off. Some of the conversation here are like trying to explain vision to those who live in a dark cave.

I do appreciate that you read accurately. "Ability to" was chosen, not an accident.

63rickert

Is that What Would Eddy Say? Have you ever talked with Eddy? When the conversation is not going where he wants, or is plain uninteresting, he does monosyllables. Forgets his English. Grunts. Caveman Eddy. Since the caveman is part of the public persona it all works out.

smontanaro 

Sounds like most people I know, including me.

smontanaro 

One Mississippi, Two Mississippi...

woodcraft

How did you measure the rpm?

livedarklions

Yeah, that's wrong. You're forgetting resistance. If the gear is big enough, a person could need to recruit fast twitch in order to run it at 60 rpm. Point is I can run a 52x12 on slow twitch at a higher rate than most people, and it's a very efficient low CV demand relatively high speed method of riding.


I cruise between 20-23 mph using slow twitch, and I can accelerate very fast, exceeding 25 mph and 30 a couple times. I assure you I am very well acquainted with my fast twitch muscle. I also attack hills quite effectively, again fast twitch. I don't race, but I can also go from zero to 20 faster than anyone else I'm seeing on the road. Frankly, your patronizing comments are completely ill-informed.

Guess what, I vary my cadence. You make a fetish out of 100 rpm, but if I pressed you on it, you'll never be able to tell us what is magic about that number.

I'm done with arguing with you. Your posts are getting too silly to bother.

63rickert

There are a few ways to measure rpm. Most common and obvious is to mount a computer (speedometer) that has that function. Before those devices existed it was necessary to have a watch mounted on handlebars and count. That also worked as a speedometer if you knew what gear you were in and how to convert the numbers. Currently I do neither, but rely on the roadside radar speed signs many local jurisdiction use and convert in the other direction. Or a riding companion will mention the speed on their computer and I'll run that number against my gear ratio. Low accuracy but a useful check from time to time.

For the other person who says he's out of the conversation: Imagine a forum or publication in some other domain. Imagine someone writing for car enthusiasts and claiming he has a magic car that accelerates as well off the line in top gear as in first gear. Imagine the howls of laughter. Yet such claims are made constantly when the topic is cycling. It never ends.

asgelle

Bikes are not cars. That said, I'm pretty sure a lot of effort goes into choosing the transmission and differential ratios for performance cars based on the torque curve of the engine.

xroadcharlie

I think the ideal cadence for recreational cyclists depends largely on the load. Whether we are climbing a hill, fighting wind, or just normal cruising. The greater the load, Higher up in our candace range seems best if we want to maintain the same speed.

I consider myself to be of about average fitness for a 62 year old man, And am working on monitoring my cadence, using my speed in gears. It's actually easier then it seems. I just memorize my minimum speeds in my 3 or 4 favorite gears (16, 18, & 20 kph in 4'th, 5'th and 6'th) using 54 rpm as a minimum cadence, and adding about 1/3 for max cruising cadence (54 + 18 = 72) and max speed (18 + 6 = 24 kph @72rpm in 5'th).

Seems to working very well so far. Sometimes I find my cadence too fast or too slow, And during normal cruising, Switching to a better gear really feels good. I think its a good way to protect these old knees, and make biking more pleasurable too with longer, Less fatiguing rides.