Parson

Reading through the "weaning off the granny gear" thread made me think to ask the following, but I didn't want to hijack the thread so I'm starting a new one.

I'm just starting cycling. Hills, as expected, have been a real challenge since the start. Coming from a pretty basic mountain bike, I was excited to see how much further I could get up the hills around here when I purchased a new road bike (carbon with 105 components). Because the gearing is so much bigger (53/39 with 12-27), I'm finding that there really isn't much difference in how well I can climb hills. I asked my LBS about putting on a bigger cassette and they think that since I'm young (30s) and thin that all I need is more conditioning and to develop more power.

On my moutain bike, I can spin away and get up some fairly steep sections. On my road bike, even when I have it in 39 front 27 rear, I feel like I'm really pushing hard on the pedals rather than spinning when the grade starts to creep up.

If I do hill repeats once a week and ride around 5hrs/ roughly 120km a week (and progress as able), how long would it take the average person to notice a significant change in their ability to apply some power to the pedals for sustained periods to get up a decent hill. For me, in this area, a decent hill would be 1.5km at 8% with a couple sections of 10-12%.

At this point, the most challenging hill that I'm able to complete is a 3km stretch of sustained 3-5% (small sections of 6-7%) which leaves me gasping for air for the last 1/4. As soon as I hit any hills with sections around 12%, I'm done in 30 seconds and physically can't go any further. It seems that my lungs and legs both give out around the same time.

I guess what I'm wondering is if improvements come within a year or so, then i can continue with my current set up, but if it takes longer than that, perhaps I should go against the advice of the LBS and just get a 30t cassette.

What are people's thoughts on this? Thanks.

Carbonfiberboy 

Depends on your genetics. Some can, some can't. We have a fair bit of hills in the PNW, but usually only up to about 7%. 10% is the exception, and only short bits of 15%-18%. Even so, I don't ride with anyone who uses a double. It's all about ego, IMO. The more you pay for a bike, the smaller the stock cassette. Ever notice that? And bike shops are big on ego. Get the big cassette. Heck, get a 32. You'll probably need a different RD, but save the original. After a year or two, if you find you never use the last couple of cogs, get a smaller cassette.

vesteroid

really only two options...better gears or better training...but one thought...really try to slow your cadence and see if that helps...I know this is not conventional wisdom, but I use to find I was getting exhausted easily. At the time I thought I was going as slow as possible without falling over, but oddly enough I simply tried slowing down, and realized I could make it up hills that use to kill me. yes I mashed and went below 60 rpm but I found it worked for me.

gregf83 

Are you standing or sitting for those sections. Spinning up at 90 RPM will take 50% more power than standing up at 60 RPM.

If you want to improve your performance on a particular hill you need sufficiently low gearing and technique that you can do repeats on the hill. If it takes 5 min to get up you should be able to do 5 or 6 repeats with 5 min rest in between attempts. If you can't get up 5 or 6 times on a short hill you should look at lower gearing with either a different cassette or a compact crank.

Carbonfiberboy 

You mean 90 or 60 in the same gear, don't you Greg? Because for most folks it takes the same power for the same speed, sitting or standing. It's just that standing imposes a considerably higher aerobic load for most people. Bruyneel was always after Lance to sit more, but for Lance it didn't matter. I have ridden with one slender fellow who claimed to be faster standing. He stood on most hills and seemed plenty fast enough. Otherwise, everyone I know is faster standing on a short hill and faster sitting on a long hill, IOW sitting anything over about a minute.

Excellent point about the repeats. That is a good way to judge it, regardless of technique.

I find I can't stand efficiently in a gear under about 50", because the bike is going so slow it almost stops between strokes. Just thinking about it, I supposed some inch figure like that would be true for everyone, only the slope would vary. Meaning that for extremely steep slopes, my bike is geared so that I have to sit in my granny and grind at 50 or whatever it takes. Standing is no help, but good pedaling technique is.

SCochiller

Comes down to one thing, really - your power/weight.

Carbonfiberboy 

Speed, yes. But getting up a hill is just gearing and technique. Anyone can climb, even one-lunged ladies. Even I can climb. An old man with a below average cyclist's VO2max can ride RAMROD. I once saw a woman who must have weighed 300 lbs. on the top of Cayuse Pass, having ridden up the south side on her MTB. Chapeau!

Parson

Thanks for the replies everyone. I usually sit on the hills. I always sit except for the very steep sections where I feel like I don't have a choice (ie I wouldn't be able to turn the pedals if I stayed seated). I guess I'll keep praciticing and see how much progress I make. If I'm not making much progress, I'll get the 30t cassette. After just having bought the bike and all that goes along with it, paying for another RD to accept a 32t is not an option at this point.

I appreciate the info about hill repeats. The hill that I ultimately want to get up is around 1.5k with an average grade of 10% with sections as steep as 18% so that's not realistic now, but there are some easier hills that I can practice on to improve my power/weight ratio and strength endurance. Thanks.

gregf83 

Yes, I was assuming the OP was in his lowest gear. If you want to spin that gear at 90 RPM it will be a lot more work (but faster) than standing and just using body weight to grind up the hill.

ericm979

Buy the 30t cassette. There's a cheap low end Shimano one that'll work fine. It'll help you get up that hill you want to climb. Since your LBS sucks, buy it on line and get the tools. You'll only need to buy them once and they'll enable you to swap cassettes for many years. Cassettes are wear items like chains and tires.

But what you really need is a compact crank. The 30t cog won't be all that much lower than the 27t (about 10%) and it sounds like you need lower than that to get up the climbs in your area. 3km of 3-5% isn't that hard a climb.

I don't subscribe to the tough it out and you will get better school. As long as you apply yourself (i.e. do the climbs without loafing) being able to ride them at an appropriate rpm will train you better than grinding in too low a gear will.

Also practice standing before you have to. It's useful.

RWBlue01

I don't know if this will help you, but......

I live on a hill. So to get home I have to ride up a hill. For a while it meant walking.

I was able to make it up the hill most of the time now, but there is a trick......My knees and muscles will not allow me to muscle my fat * up the hill, so.....I sit at the bottom and get my heart rate down to a resting HR. Then I slowly work my way of the hill keeping the gears as high as I can. If I can keep my heart rate reasonable on the lower part of the hill I can make it to the top with my heart rate in zone 5 for only a limited amount of time.

I am also working the weights now. Hopefully this will mean bigger gears and getting to the top of the hill and NOT being in zone 5.

Carbonfiberboy 

Strategies . . . You'll be more likely to have a good climb if you spin a gear in which you are comfortable. You'll be more likely to have a good climb if, during your ride to the foot of the hill, you go hard for about a minute or so a couple of times and then recover while still riding. Rollers work well for this. Starting a hill with a resting HR isn't so good because your muscles won't be full of blood, oxygen, and nutrients the way they'd be if you were riding. It takes me at least ten minutes to bring my systems online from a resting start, sometimes as long as an hour if it's first thing in the morning. Racers will warm up for at least a 1/2 hour before starting a hard ride, trying to finish their warmup as close as possible to their start time.

Weights won't help. Climbing more hills will. You just gotta suffer. That's how we all did it and still do it.

ericm979

Weight lifting is of minimal use for climbing.

Why don't you get lower gearing? Lower gearing is easier on the knees and lets you go slower and still have a reasonable cadence, so you're putting out less effort. Keeping in as high a gear as you can is the hardest way to make it up a hill.

Living on a difficult hill (2 miles @ 10%, then 1/3 mile averaging 16% with a 22% ramp) I run low gears. When I first started riding and was really out of shape I left running shoes in my mail box for that last steep part. It took me a few years before I could do it on a road bike (with a triple) without stopping to let my HR go down. Eventually I no longer needed the triple, but I'm stuck with a 34t small ring if I hope to get home after a long hard ride.

When I bought my Cervelo I asked the shop to put a compact crank on it. When I came to pick it up they asked for my address. I told them and the guy says "Oh, that explains it. We were wondering why a guy who looks as fit as you would want a compact".

RWBlue01

I don't know if I am abnormal, but....
I tried the warm up and then up the hill. It didn't work for me. The heart rate peaked mid hill. I was ok for a while at max HR, but after a while....it became time to walk. But if I ride to the bottom of the hill, stop, rest and start with a low HR, I make it up to the top.

As far as the weights, I think they should help. My heart rate goes up in proportion to the cadence. But not nearly as much in relation to bigger gears. So with a higher gear, I can go at a slower cadence and slowly work my way up the hill.


I should state: I am very much out of shape. I am not racing anyone but myself. I am using a Mt. Bike (think very low, low gears, so low that I can not go anywhere in my low low gear peddling at max cadence). Riding up at 2mhp IHMO, is better than walking up the hill at 3MPH.

StanSeven

Do a search on weight lifting and cycling. Weights improve short term power, mostly at the start when your fresh. Track racers lift and that's about it. Cycling is endurance - you get stronger by riding and do drills to improve performance

RWBlue01

I have "Bike for life" by Roy Wallack and Bill Katovsky sitting on my lap. Here are just a couple lines "Weight Training, No Doubt-Cyclists Must Pump Iron" "Weight training will actually help you become a better cyclist."

I don't think it is a matter of one or the other. I think I will get better if I do both.

nkfrench 

You've been fitted on your road bike, right? Small differences in saddle position can affect climbing ability.

On long climbs I am best served by slowing cadence and getting into a steady rhythm. Spinning blows my cardio out the roof. I will stand for short periods if cadence drops too low, but standing jacks my heartrate out the roof too. YMMV.

My favorite bike is 53/39 with 12-27. In the 39/27 combo I am at my limits on 1 minute climbs grade about 12%. My other bike is 53/39 with 11-28. The extra low gear allows me up some 10% grades without having to stand but I still struggle on the short 13% climbs. The 53/11 is great once I am headed back downhill.

Expect to see continued improvement for several years. The hills will make you strong. Be patient.

Parson

Nkfrench, Yup, I've been fitted on my bike. Thanks for the encouragement. I'm looking forward to feeling the improvement as I continue to ride more.

ericm979

Bike for Life is a great inspirational book but it's not that good on exercise physiology. Weight training won't help your climbing much. The muscular systems used to do 10 reps of weights are different from what you use to do hundreds of pedal revolutions on a climb.

I do weights in the winter and try to maintain my gains through the season. But inevitably I lose the ability to push the weights through the season, especially as I stop lifting around peaks for A races. I'm down to less than half of what I was doing in February. But I'm climbing significantly faster, and I'm only a few lbs lighter so it's not due to lower weight.

Where weight training is good for cycling is in the supporting muscles- core and upper body. And it's useful for non cycling fitness, bone density, etc. but that isn't making one faster on climbs.

RWBlue01

Maybe it just makes a difference with me because I am really out of shape. But I did see a significant boost in my hill climbing ability when I started lifting. I don't know, maybe I am doing something else different, but I don't think so.

Trish

First question - how do you know what grade a hill is? I live in an area with quite a few hills and TO ME they seem gigantic! I track most of my rides on Endomondo, so is there something I can look at on my workout summary to determine the grade?

Second question - what does all that mumbo-jumbo mean? The 53/39 with 12-27, 39/27 combo, 23/39 with 11-28 and 53/11 - explain please?

Thanks!

DataJunkie

That is the number of teeth on the gears (chainrings up front and cogs on the cassette in the back).
Big numbers up front = more teeth = harder to pedal
Big numbers in the back = more teeth = easier to pedal

The hardest (highest) gear is 53/12 (53 in the front and 12 in the back).
The easiest (lowest) gear is 39/27 (39 in the front and 27 in the back).

Trish

Thank you! And obviously there is a way to know how many teeth/cogs my bike has besides sitting in my driveway with my bike in my lap and counting them....right...?

10 Wheels

https://i256.photobucket.com/albums/h...-24/503934.jpg

11-34

https://i256.photobucket.com/albums/h...5-39-24002.jpg

10 Wheels

The teeth numbers are stamped on the gears, but sometimes difficult to read.