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Do you put patched tubes back in your saddlebag?

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Do you put patched tubes back in your saddlebag?

Old 01-03-21, 02:28 PM
  #101  
rekmeyata
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Okay, I think we got a failure to communicate here. When you say “roll”, I see this



When I say “fold”, I see what what DiabloScott has posted.

I’m not a fan of the roll like above because the the stem sticks out and pokes other things in the bag. “Folding” the tube with the stem on the inside cuts down on that problem.
Even that roll has at least 3 folds that I can see. That's one of those new poly tubes, how the heck does the valve stem go into the tube? does it just screw in? It wouldn't seem that the poly would be strong enough to hold high psi and the air would just blow by the threading. I'm looking at it but it seems weird, I know it works, just seems weird.
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Old 01-03-21, 03:40 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by dscheidt View Post
There are other ways to produce a cold vulcanizing bond. Park, and many others, use zinc dibutyldithiocarbamate or a related zinc thiocarbamate. This is the system that most automotive patch systems use. These won't show up on the SDS, for the same reason the rubber in cement isn't listed, because at the levels used, they're not a safety concern. But It's a perfectly acceptable system.
While you can do cold vulcanization in a bunch of ways, most of them are very slow. The thiocarbamates you are talking about are added to the rubber of the patch. They are called secondary accelerators and are used to activate the primary accelerator. In Rema fluid there is N-Ethylcyclohexylamine listed in the fluid in about 2% concentration. This is the primary accelerator that speeds up the reaction. The thiocarbamate is the sulfur source as well. Long ago I found something similar listed in the MSDS for the patch but Rema doesn’t have an MSDS for the rubber patches anymore. This article has a very good description of the process but it is rather techical.

I pretty exclusively use Rema patches, purchased in bulk, because they're mechanically the best pataches around, but I use vulcanizing fluid made by someone else, because it's readily available at the auto parts store, and cheaper than buying little tubes of rema fluid. Works great.
While Rema patches are good, they are part of a system. The “vulcanizing fluid” from Park as well as several others don’t list the N-ethylcyclohexylamine in their MSDSs. They only list solvents. There is the possibility that they aren’t listing the primary accelerator in the fluid but most of the accelerators that would be use tend to be amines which are pretty nasty as a class. Additionally, many of the tubes of cement in kits that aren’t Rema are marked “rubber cement”. Many of the cans of patching fluid I’ve run across, such as Slime and Park, just list solvents. Some, like Xtra Seal Vulcan Cement, list solvent and natural latex. That’s rubber cement.

Even if the fluid from other manufacturers contains accelerators, the chemistry is between the accelerators is probably going to quite specific. Accelerator A in Fluid A is specific to Accelerator B in patch B. Adding Fluid C into the mix may not result in the same results because they are using accelerators that don’t work together. Without knowing the specifics of the chemicals in the different fluids, I wouldn’t trust that they are compatible. That’s been borne out by my experiences with more generic patch kits. The failure rate is higher with the other brands in my experience.
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Old 01-03-21, 06:43 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
While you can do cold vulcanization in a bunch of ways, most of them are very slow. The thiocarbamates you are talking about are added to the rubber of the patch. They are called secondary accelerators and are used to activate the primary accelerator. In Rema fluid there is N-Ethylcyclohexylamine listed in the fluid in about 2% concentration. This is the primary accelerator that speeds up the reaction. The thiocarbamate is the sulfur source as well. Long ago I found something similar listed in the MSDS for the patch but Rema doesn’t have an MSDS for the rubber patches anymore. This article has a very good description of the process but it is rather techical.
.
There's lots of environmental and work safety pressure to eliminate the use of cyclohexamine, and there are alternative chemistries that work just as well. the zinc thiocarmates require an activator, which is usually stearic acid, or zinc oxide in combination with stearic acid. None of these require use at levels that show up on SDS, because the SDS is about work place and transport safety, not reverse engineering the trade secrets of products.
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Old 01-03-21, 07:09 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
Even that roll has at least 3 folds that I can see. That's one of those new poly tubes, how the heck does the valve stem go into the tube? does it just screw in? It wouldn't seem that the poly would be strong enough to hold high psi and the air would just blow by the threading. I'm looking at it but it seems weird, I know it works, just seems weird.
I see a whole lot more than just 3 folds, depending on how you count them. Each layer of the roll could be considered a “fold”. They certainly are stress points.

I suspect the valve has to be threaded into the tube because of the materials of construction. It may not be possible to form the seal around the valve like rubber does.

Just to be clear, this tube is only an example of what I would call “rolling” a tube. I’ve seen rubber tubes rolled like this but it’s rather uncommon.
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Old 01-03-21, 07:30 PM
  #105  
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I just discarded a Schrader tube from my hybrid that had five or six patches. Probably been on that bike since 2015 or '16. Only reason I had to finally toss it was I got careless replacing a tire that fit too loosely and the tube sneaked out between the rim and bead and burst. That's always been a problem with the Alex S1000 rim on that bike -- the rim is slightly undersized and gets along only with Michelin Protek Cross Max tires. I tried to substitute my favorite hybrid tire, Conti SpeedRides, but the bead slipped on too easily, which should have been my warning.

Anyway, those glued patches may have been the toughest part of that tube. Those old glued patches feel more supple and more like part of the tube with age. If not for the bursting due to operator error, I'm sure that tube would have been good for years to come.

I'm a bit pickier about reusing patched road bike tubes, but with my hybrids? Nah, I'll patch and run those for as long as the tube lasts. I think my record was 9 patches on my errand bike rear tire. Lots of construction debris for a couple of years and I picked up a lot of staples, etc., back around 2015 before switching to those heavy duty Michelin bulletproof tires.
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Old 01-03-21, 07:39 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I have been on rides where we had an epic number of flats...27 between 4 people...and I was the only one without a flat, including one person with tubeless. My wife got one of those 27 because I forgot to put a liner in one of her tires, the tubeless guy got 6 and one poor soul ended up with 20.
.
LOL. I hope you kicked the guy who had the 20 flats out of every future ride ever.
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Old 01-03-21, 08:27 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by dscheidt View Post
There's lots of environmental and work safety pressure to eliminate the use of cyclohexamine, and there are alternative chemistries that work just as well. the zinc thiocarmates require an activator, which is usually stearic acid, or zinc oxide in combination with stearic acid. None of these require use at levels that show up on SDS, because the SDS is about work place and transport safety, not reverse engineering the trade secrets of products.
The link I provided goes into the chemistry pretty extensively (I’m still working through the article). It does seem to be about hot vulcanization rather than cold. But it appears that stearic acid and zinc oxide would have to be used but that is seems to be for natural rubber. There are about 150 different accelerators and stearic acid and zinc oxide seem to be the most innocuous of the bunch. Apparently there are about 50 that are commonly used in the rubber industry. The ones listed in the paper are particularly safe and would likely have to be listed in the MSDS.

Zinc oxide, by the way, wouldn’t be in any vulcanizing fluid for patching. It’s not soluble in the organic solvents used in any of the fluids, whether rubber cement or vulcanizing fluid. It seems to be used in the hot vulcanization

I know that the SDS isn’t for reverse engineering a product but it can give valuable information on what’s in a substance.
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Old 01-04-21, 12:17 PM
  #108  
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The spoke bolts inside all wire wheels I ever had sooner or later make pin-hole leaks in the inner-tube. I tried care in placing the rubber gasket in place which is supposed to prevent this but it still did not work. I purchased a set of smooth interior mag wheels which have no wire spokes and no spoke bolts and it has been almost two years with never a leak since. The wheels came from China and claim to be lighter than wire wheels but since I do not compete in races to ride into town for my groceries I don't care.
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Old 01-04-21, 12:37 PM
  #109  
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unless you know of a problem with your patching technique - they should be better than new

(now one place is 2 layers deep )
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Old 01-04-21, 12:39 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by drbarney1 View Post
The spoke bolts inside all wire wheels I ever had sooner or later make pin-hole leaks in the inner-tube. I tried care in placing the rubber gasket in place which is supposed to prevent this but it still did not work. I purchased a set of smooth interior mag wheels which have no wire spokes and no spoke bolts and it has been almost two years with never a leak since. The wheels came from China and claim to be lighter than wire wheels but since I do not compete in races to ride into town for my groceries I don't care.
I had a problem like that once. Plastic rim strip deformed enough to let the spokes poke through the nipple and the rim strip. That was about 20 years ago; the problem has not recurred with proper Velox rim strips.
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Old 01-04-21, 12:41 PM
  #111  
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Not to jinx myself, but I must be living a charmed life as I've gotten maybe a half dozen flats in the past 11 years (5,000 miles this year and one flat). And, most of my flats have been because the stem broke away from the tube (two of them I noticed while the bike was in the garage so no need to change on the road). So, my view is skewed based on my experience. I carry a patch kit but have never used it, partly because I'm a klutz and would probably screw up gluing it on, but mostly because my tubes have lasted a long time without flatting due to a puncture. So, I don't have practice patching and, given my infrequency of flats, I wouldn't be surprised if the glue hasn't dried up and become ineffective (I'm assuming that happens??). My position is to just toss the tube when it flats, even on the rare occasion it's a puncture - up til now, they've always lasted a long time.
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Old 01-04-21, 02:15 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by the sci guy View Post
Replaced a flat during a ride with a new tube from my saddlebag. Brought the flat home and found the hole. Patched it. Is it safe to put it back in the saddlebag for next time or does folding it ruin the patch or cause it to tear or or anything?
I would obviously roll up the tube so the patch wasn’t on a bend but...

Thoughts?

and to be clear sure I could take out the tube I replaced with yesterday and the put the patched tube back in the tire and roll up the spare tube again and put it back in my bag but man I just don’t feel like it!
Safe? Sure. Worst case, you put a leaky tube back on and use up an inflator or some arm strength squeezing the mini pump. I reused previously punctured tubes all the time in my college days (some with more than 1 patch). Now, the $2 for a new tube seems like a cheap alternative to patching, rolling, and hoping on an already punctured tube is road worthy.
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Old 01-04-21, 05:14 PM
  #113  
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We need a link for these $2 tubes...
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Old 01-04-21, 05:32 PM
  #114  
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I only put a patched tube back into my saddle pack on my touring bike, never on my
road bike. I'm running tubeless on my gravel and mountain bike.
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Old 01-04-21, 06:46 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by the sci guy View Post
Replaced a flat during a ride with a new tube from my saddlebag. Brought the flat home and found the hole. Patched it. Is it safe to put it back in the saddlebag for next time or does folding it ruin the patch or cause it to tear or or anything?
I would obviously roll up the tube so the patch wasn’t on a bend but...

Thoughts?

and to be clear sure I could take out the tube I replaced with yesterday and the put the patched tube back in the tire and roll up the spare tube again and put it back in my bag but man I just don’t feel like it!
Yeah, that would be a lot of work for absolutely no reason. I'd check to see if the patch worked with the water test and pack it with no reservations. I've had tubes with 4 patches but I usually draw the line there. A guys gotta have some standards.😁
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Old 01-04-21, 06:47 PM
  #116  
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My patched tubes go back on the tire, I'll only use a spare if the patch job fails. If that happens I re-patch the tube at home and it goes back on the tire. I don't get many flats fortunately.
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Old 01-04-21, 06:49 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by WinterCommuter View Post
Safe? Sure. Worst case, you put a leaky tube back on and use up an inflator or some arm strength squeezing the mini pump. I reused previously punctured tubes all the time in my college days (some with more than 1 patch). Now, the $2 for a new tube seems like a cheap alternative to patching, rolling, and hoping on an already punctured tube is road worthy.
Unfortunately cheap tubes usually hold air for a week or less. I'd rather use a quality patched tube.
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Old 01-04-21, 07:09 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by the sci guy View Post
Thanks all. Tube is patched and currently waiting overnight inflated to see if it holds. But it'll go back in the saddlebag after. thumbs up emoji.
One would think that after 40-50 years of riding that I could patch a tube but I've had a few failures lately right at the patch. One thing about testing tubes (overnight) is that the tube has to be inside a tire to test it under pressure. It takes very little pressure to inflate outside a tire, so it's not a solid test.
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Old 01-04-21, 11:21 PM
  #119  
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Yes, install the other I had with me, and ride on. Ive used tures with numerous patches in them, for spares. As long as it works.
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Old 01-04-21, 11:22 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by curbtender View Post
Interesting...

Because your not using hot patches, lol.
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Old 01-05-21, 08:42 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
One would think that after 40-50 years of riding that I could patch a tube but I've had a few failures lately right at the patch. One thing about testing tubes (overnight) is that the tube has to be inside a tire to test it under pressure. It takes very little pressure to inflate outside a tire, so it's not a solid test.
I blow the tube up so it's stretched a bit before an overnight test. (One night for the patch to dry and harden, one night for the inflation test.) I don't remember if I've ever had a tube pass the overnight inflation test, where it's still obviously inflated in the morning, and fail on the road without getting another puncture. User error; my own fault for not finding what caused the first flat and putting another tube in -- I can't attribute that to poor patching.
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Old 01-05-21, 10:30 AM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by cacher View Post
Because your not using hot patches, lol.
My first experience with patching a tire was in the early 60's on a trip down 99 to San Diego in a 49' Chevy pickup. We got a flat and my Dad pulled the split ring, hot patched the tube and hand pumped it back up. Bikes are so much harder, lol...
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Old 01-05-21, 12:52 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by the sci guy View Post
Replaced a flat during a ride with a new tube from my saddlebag. Brought the flat home and found the hole. Patched it. Is it safe to put it back in the saddlebag for next time or does folding it ruin the patch or cause it to tear or or anything?
I would obviously roll up the tube so the patch wasn’t on a bend but...

Thoughts?

and to be clear sure I could take out the tube I replaced with yesterday and the put the patched tube back in the tire and roll up the spare tube again and put it back in my bag but man I just don’t feel like it!
I never ever carry a patched tube as a spare. To me, the only valid test of a patched tube is at full pressure inside a wheel. And I've probably patched over 1000 tube in my 60+ years of riding a bike. Even used to do sew-ups. My old paper boy bike doesn't count here as I don't remember ever getting a flat on it. But for bikes I ride miles from home, at least one new tube and a patch kit as back-up
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Old 01-05-21, 07:28 PM
  #124  
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I'm mostly on tubeless these days, but I still have one set of wheels that's tubed, or sometimes. And on those, I've taken to putting ~15-20mL of sealant that I use on my tubeless wheels, into the inner tubes. Pulled a 1.5" staple out of a tire this past summer - spit a bit for ~5sec., but then I rode the 20km home still on ~100psi.
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Old 01-05-21, 08:29 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by Cycle Tourist View Post
Unfortunately cheap tubes usually hold air for a week or less. I'd rather use a quality patched tube.
Exactly, and the biggest problem I've had with cheap tubes is crappy Presta valves that fail after using them 3 to 6 times.
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