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will slicker tires make a notable difference?

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will slicker tires make a notable difference?

Old 01-11-21, 09:49 AM
  #26  
WhyFi
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Originally Posted by wilson_smyth View Post
Schwalbe lists my G-Ones at 480g. (40-266)
They list the marathon almotion v guard (non microskin) is 490g. the microskin one is over 600g.

Even with variation between avg weight vs what ends up leaving the factory, i cant see a diffence of 30-40g making any notable difference to my acceleration at traffic lights.

I think im leaning more toward the almotion v-guard non microskin, nice balance of speed & durability that should be as agile on the road as my current g-one allround.
If you're primarily going to be on pavement and you're looking for good ride quality and decent performance, you're barking up the wrong tree and you're completely neglecting what everyone has been trying to tell you about casing quality and suppleness.
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Old 01-11-21, 10:16 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
If you're primarily going to be on pavement and you're looking for good ride quality and decent performance, you're barking up the wrong tree and you're completely neglecting what everyone has been trying to tell you about casing quality and suppleness.
Im not ignoring it. reviews have said the almotions are a nice ride and very durable. outside of buying a set and trying them out, that's all i have to go on.
Im also ok with sacrificing a bit of comfort in the interest of durability, i.e. not fixing a puncture on the way home from work and being late collecting the kids from creche.

The balance of speed, durability and agility is a tough one to crack.
The G-ones dont rate well on rolling resistance, but are reasonably durable and agile in acceleration.
The almotions rate well on rolling resistance and durability at the cost of some agility.
They're both almost the same weight.

im weighing up the tradeoffs.
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Old 01-11-21, 10:28 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by wilson_smyth View Post
Im not ignoring it. reviews have said the almotions are a nice ride and very durable. outside of buying a set and trying them out, that's all i have to go on.
Im also ok with sacrificing a bit of comfort in the interest of durability, i.e. not fixing a puncture on the way home from work and being late collecting the kids from creche.

The balance of speed, durability and agility is a tough one to crack.
The G-ones dont rate well on rolling resistance, but are reasonably durable and agile in acceleration.
The almotions rate well on rolling resistance and durability at the cost of some agility.
They're both almost the same weight.

im weighing up the tradeoffs.
This is the first time that you've mentioned durability or puncture resistance. You mentioned comfort in the OP, have raised weight as a concern and keep harping on about acceleration. You need to decide on your priorities.

Also, when looking at reviews, you need to consider that they're going to be relative to their competition within a given category and that you're looking across multiple categories. I have not touched a Marathon, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that they're not going to come close to touching a Pro One in terms of being fast, supple, and grippy at appropriate pressure.

If you really want the best of all worlds, and are responsible and competent enough to deal with occasional maintenance, I'd be looking at road tubeless tires in the 28-32mm range.
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Old 01-11-21, 10:47 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post

If you really want the best of all worlds, and are responsible and competent enough to deal with occasional maintenance, I'd be looking at road tubeless tires in the 28-32mm range.
Thats unfair and rude. I am both responsible and competent enough, i have time limitations that necessitate that i do what i can to avoid punctures, i.e. kids need to be picked up.
Ive been tubeless, overall the experience was slightly negative so im not going down that route again just yet.

The bike is a gravel bike so i wouldnt be going lower than 36-38mm on it anyway.

Thanks for your input.
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Old 01-11-21, 11:01 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by wilson_smyth View Post
Thats unfair and rude. I am both responsible and competent enough, i have time limitations that necessitate that i do what i can to avoid punctures, i.e. kids need to be picked up.
Ive been tubeless, overall the experience was slightly negative so im not going down that route again just yet.
How is that rude? You've never mentioned a history with tubeless and I'm simply acknowledging that tubeless requires preventative maintenance to be effective. Some people don't want to be bothered with it and, for whatever reason, others aren't capable of dealing it with it - that leads to negative experiences.

Originally Posted by wilson_smyth View Post
The bike is a gravel bike so i wouldnt be going lower than 36-38mm on it anyway.
It's a gravel bike that's not going to be seeing gravel. Put slicks on it and it's an endurance road bike. Many people buy gravel bikes and an additional wheelset so that they can quickly and easily swap between wide and knobby and slick and fast.
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Old 01-13-21, 08:16 AM
  #31  
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To close this off, I've ordered a set of Continental GP 5000 32mm. Coming from a 40mm nobly tire I have no doubt they will be very different, hopefully in a good way and durability wont suffer too much.
Not going tubeless as I've been there before and when it gets messy, it gets very messy, so will stick with tubes and the hit to puncture resistance they bring.

once they're delivered and I've had a few spins on them ill give an update.

Thanks all for the advice and discussion.

Last edited by wilson_smyth; 01-13-21 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 01-13-21, 10:52 AM
  #32  
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I had to replace my stock tire after I got a gash in it and replaced it with a GP5000. Nice tire except mounting it was extremely difficult.
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Old 01-13-21, 01:57 PM
  #33  
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You won't necessarily go any faster, but you will notice a lot less buzz from the knobs or tread.

As mentioned above, if you want to go noticeably faster you need to get a lightweight tire with supple casing and sidewall and (unfortunately) no flat protective layer.
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Old 01-13-21, 02:15 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by ClydeClydeson View Post
You won't necessarily go any faster, but you will notice a lot less buzz from the knobs or tread.

As mentioned above, if you want to go noticeably faster you need to get a lightweight tire with supple casing and sidewall and (unfortunately) no flat protective layer.
That's not entirely true. Only track racing tires really have "no flat protective layer". GP5000's have vectran puncture layer.
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Old 01-14-21, 01:34 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
I take drum roller tests with a big grain of salt, unless I am looking for a tire for my indoor rollers.

drum roller tests is so flawed.
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Old 01-14-21, 01:45 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by sean.hwy View Post
drum roller tests is so flawed.
Oh? Care to elaborate? Some pretty knowledgeable people seem to think that they're not without merit and value -

Originally Posted by RChung View Post
Almost always, the rank ordering of tires on rollers is the same as on the road. Sometimes two tires will swap ranking, but usually that's when the tires are pretty close to begin with. An exception can occur when the impedance break point on one tire comes a little earlier than the other. If you're in the neighborhood of that threshold, you can also observe a ranking swap.

Almost always, if you see a discussion of impedance breakpoint they're talking about real world field testing on roads as opposed to on a roller.
Originally Posted by RChung View Post
That depends on how careful you're being in testing. If you're being really careful, you can reliably discern a difference in Crr *on the road* of maybe around 5% or maybe a bit less (I prefer to work in Crr rather that watts since watts depends on your speed and total weight). So if you're measuring a tire that has a Crr on the road of around .004, that means you can reliably discern a difference of around .0002, or a bit less.

So, one thing we noticed in addition to the rankings not changing much between roller and road testing: Real roads tend to be a little less perfect than even the kind of diamond plate Jarno uses for his big drum, plus when you pedal you're moving around and leaning the tire this way and that. So Crr measured in field tests tends to be maybe 1.5x higher in absolute terms than what Jarno measures on his drum. That is, the relative rankings and the relative differentials tend to be very close between rollers and road, but the absolute raw Crr values vary by maybe 1.5 (and this will depend on the condition of the pavement).

Here's the practical bottom line: if I absolutely positively need to know--like when I'm working with someone making a record attempt--I'll test CdA and Crr on the surface being raced on. However, for most purposes, I just use the roller tests, multiply by maybe 1.5, and use that. That usually gets me close (but, of course, I check).
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Old 01-14-21, 02:30 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Oh? Care to elaborate? Some pretty knowledgeable people seem to think that they're not without merit and value -
I have never seen any tests that demonstrate that ranking on roller drums translates reliably to ranking on the road. I have seen many people say that they do, but no evidence. I have also looked at studies supposedly verifying roller drum results, and they do verify certain aspects of the results, but not the rankings of one tire relative to another.

If you know of such a test that has in fact demonstrated this, I would love to look at it.
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Old 01-14-21, 03:32 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
I have never seen any tests that demonstrate that ranking on roller drums translates reliably to ranking on the road. I have seen many people say that they do, but no evidence. I have also looked at studies supposedly verifying roller drum results, and they do verify certain aspects of the results, but not the rankings of one tire relative to another.

If you know of such a test that has in fact demonstrated this, I would love to look at it.
Why don't you address the guy I quoted? I'm happy to defer to his authority.
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Old 01-14-21, 04:25 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post

It's a gravel bike that's not going to be seeing gravel. Put slicks on it and it's an endurance road bike. Many people buy gravel bikes and an additional wheelset so that they can quickly and easily swap between wide and knobby and slick and fast.
In my case I bought more expensive carbon wheels for my road bike. Then I kick down my my alloy wheels from the road bike to the gravel bike. So nice to have two wheels sets for the gravel bike when you go out of town. one bike with two wheels sets = 2 bikes.
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Old 01-14-21, 05:46 PM
  #40  
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I wanted to try 28mm tires, so recently swapped 35mm panaracer t-serv tires with 28mm continental ultra sport iii because they were cheap. The 28s are easier to pedal, specially off the get go but it comes in expense of giving up some comfort although not by much. The conties are 160gm/each lighter than the t-serves. I also switched to lighter inner tubes. So, overall ended up with 470gm weight reduction (2tires + 2tubes + 1spare tube), so maybe that's the main reason that makes a difference.
I also have a pair of panaracer tour 42mm tires that feel really cushy but compared to the other two, they have lead in them. My next tires will be 32mm wide mostly ridden on paved road.
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Old 01-14-21, 05:51 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Why don't you address the guy I quoted? I'm happy to defer to his authority.
What is to address? Where are these tests? He is stating something, but I am not seeing any of the data. Most importantly, I don't know what type of tires or roads he is talking about. How does he even test the RR on the road?

Sorry, but I am not taking someones word for this.

Why am I skeptical? My first inclination that something was off was when they gave the Compass Bon Jon Pass (among the fasted tires I have run) a pretty slow score. This made no sense to me and is definitely not my experience. Further, as I looked around to compare to other tires I have owned, I found they gave a very similar scores to the Bon Jon and the Marathon Supreme. I have owed both of these tires, and there is no way in hell they are anywhere close to each other in rolling resistance. The Bon Jon was WAY faster. Night and day difference. Heck they rated the Gatorskin (which I have also owned) only slightly slower, and that is a freaking garden hose compared the Bon Jon Pass.

I think the problem with the roller drum test is that it deforms to tire differently than a flat surface does. Is deforms the casing under in the middle or the tire (under the tread) more sharply than a flat surface does. This means it gives more weight to the flexibility of that part of the tire casing than a flat surface does.

Now, maybe that does not matter for many tires, if they are of similar construction. But what if you have a tire that is especially flexible in the sidewall both rather thick under the tread (Like most compass/RH tires)? I think what is happening is that the thick tread slows it down more on the roller drum than it would on a flat surface (a real road).

So until I see some evidence (not just someone saying it is so) that the roller drum tests are a reliable predictor of rolling resistance on real world surfaces for a wide variety of tire constructions, I am taking them with a big grain of salt. Are the results correlated? I am sure they are, but that can fall apart with individual tires that have unusual characteristics.
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Old 01-14-21, 05:55 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
How does he even test the RR on the road? ...

Sorry, but I am not taking someones word for this.
I can see you've done extensive reading on this subject.
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Old 01-14-21, 06:01 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
I can see you've done extensive reading on this subject.
I'll ask yet again as I have been asking for several years: show me the tests that validates roller drum results as an accurate predictor real world rolling resistance across a range of tires.

I am not saying it does not exist, but to date, nobody has pointed to it.

I am still waiting....
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Old 01-14-21, 06:05 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
I'll ask yet again as I have been asking for several years: show me the tests that validates roller drum results as an accurate predictor real world rolling resistance across a range of tires.

I am not saying it does not exist, but to date, nobody has pointed to it.

I am still waiting....
Have you ever considered the actual data is proprietary and can't be shared, but respected, reliable people are able to talk in generalities about their conclusions?
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Old 01-14-21, 06:09 PM
  #45  
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There are data to the contrary.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/test...res-isnt-easy/
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Old 01-14-21, 06:21 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
Have you ever considered the actual data is proprietary and can't be shared, but respected, reliable people are able to talk in generalities about their conclusions?
Sure, but without knowing what they were testing and under what conditions, it is impossible to know how widely applicable the findings are.
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Old 01-14-21, 06:24 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
What is to address? Where are these tests? He is stating something, but I am not seeing any of the data. Most importantly, I don't know what type of tires or roads he is talking about. How does he even test the RR on the road?
Welp, there's a way of doing this, it's called the Chung Method. It's widely used within high performance road cycling, including professional and Olympic levels. It's worth noting that the fellow that I quoted is named RChung. Do the math.
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Old 01-14-21, 06:25 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
I can see you've done extensive reading on this subject.
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Old 01-14-21, 06:26 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Welp, there's a way of doing this, it's called the Chung Method. It's widely used within high performance road cycling, including professional and Olympic levels. It's worth noting that the fellow that I quoted is named RChung. Do the math.
Fine, then I will ask you again (as I have been asking for years): Show me the tests that demonstrate that drum tests can accurately predict RR in real world road conditions across various types of tires.

Still waiting....

Last edited by Kapusta; 01-14-21 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 01-14-21, 06:29 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Fine, then I will ask you again: Show me the tests that demonstrate that drum tests can accurately predict RR in real world road conditions across various types of tires.

Still waiting....
It should be simple to infer from the second plot. https://blog.silca.cc/part-4b-rollin...-and-impedance
Though you do need to know that translation from roller data to road doesn't use any information on the tire; only roller geometry and road roughness.

Last edited by asgelle; 01-14-21 at 06:32 PM.
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