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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 01-18-21, 05:46 PM
  #23801  
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Originally Posted by bluesteak View Post
I have a front and rear hub to build an extra set of wheels for the mongrel Lenton. I have a 40 hole fm, and an steel 32 hole front hub which appears to be English.

What should I use for rims? I am thinking 700c, so I have looked at zac19s, sun cr18(Is 40 hole available?), velocity might have something also. I am also looking at rigita superchromix 27 inch, but I already have a have set of ea1 wheels.

I would appreciate any input.



Mongrel lenton
My Lenton was made for 27" wheels. I'd go that way if you can find a nice set of rims. Mine was equipped with Weinmanns. The 27" wheel size has a very nice ride quality. To do that on 700c you need at least 28mm...
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Old 01-18-21, 07:14 PM
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Thanks
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Old 01-18-21, 08:24 PM
  #23803  
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On my Raleigh Lenton Tourist, I went with 700c wheels, 32mm Pasela tires, and Bluemels Lightweight fenders. It originally came with EA1/597mm wheels.

LentonTourist1.jpg
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Old 01-19-21, 04:10 AM
  #23804  
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
On my Raleigh Lenton Tourist, I went with 700c wheels, 32mm Pasela tires, and Bluemels Lightweight fenders. It originally came with EA1/597mm wheels.

LentonTourist1.jpg
The frame was built with almost an inch of additional clearance? I couldn't get 597 wheels into the Hercules frame with 590 wheels without rubbing all the way around the fenders!
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Old 01-19-21, 04:23 AM
  #23805  
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I found a 40h Dunlop rear rim yesterday for the Dunelt, the hub is dated 3-57. Its not perfect, but likely a good match to the existing front rim on the bike now. Its got some brake wear, not as much as the front rim but close. The hub in it now is marked SW not AW and has a smaller flange. The spokes are junk, too rusty to use but the rim and hub are usable. The guy who sold me the wheel said the hub is likely junk, he said none of the SW hubs were any good.

The same source has about 30 5 gallon buckets of old Sturmey Archer hubs, I dug through every one and all I found was two more 1957 hubs, a ton of 1969/70 dated hubs, and about 100 dated in 1954 and two dated 9-56. The closest I found to 1960, is a 6-62 that looks pretty clean. He had a few 1961 hubs but all were 36h. The hubs all have bits of spokes attached, he said they were cut out of auction bikes to use for parts. The guy's in his 90's and said he's been messing with old bikes all his life. He's got two 40ft trailers packed full of parts in buckets, boxes, and barrels.

I think the consensus is that the bike is a 1960 due to the style of forks but I had no luck finding a 59 or 60 dated hub shell as of yet.
Were there ever 1959 or 1960 AW hubs? Did the SW and AW coexist at the same time?


Also, where to find spokes? were these originally cross 3 or 4 pattern?
What length spokes for an AW and a Dunlop rim? The old guy I got the rim from said he thinks they were 11 1/8" spokes but he only had 6 old Torrington branded spokes in a box there.

The old spokes were badly rusted, and the hub in there now is a Komet coaster brake, so they won't work.

The spokes in the rim I found are for an sw hub and also badly rusted with a half dozen mismatched spoke nipples so those won't be of any use either.
I called around to about a dozen bike shops and most don't sell spokes, the few that do wanted more than a dollar each. The last time I bought spokes years ago I think I re-spoked two wheels for $8. That wasn't all that long ago. I'm not paying $45-$50 to re-spoke one wheel.

I stripped the rim down and it lays flat so its in decent shape that way. I did break loose the hub end caps so I can open it up to see what shape its in.

The single rim isn't the ideal fix but it does match the front wheel well. I'd rather find a perfect wheelset but I don't see that happening and so far this one wheel is the best I've seen so far if I want to keep it original.

I'm leaning toward using the '62 AW hub in the pic below but am thinking about using the SW hub because it may be closer to the correct year for the bike.



SW on right is the one I removed from the wheel today.



Compared to existing front rim


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Old 01-19-21, 07:01 AM
  #23806  
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Originally Posted by 2fat2fly View Post
I found a 40h Dunlop rear rim yesterday for the Dunelt, the hub is dated 3-57. Its not perfect, but likely a good match to the existing front rim on the bike now. Its got some brake wear, not as much as the front rim but close. The hub in it now is marked SW not AW and has a smaller flange. The spokes are junk, too rusty to use but the rim and hub are usable. The guy who sold me the wheel said the hub is likely junk, he said none of the SW hubs were any good.

The same source has about 30 5 gallon buckets of old Sturmey Archer hubs, I dug through every one and all I found was two more 1957 hubs, a ton of 1969/70 dated hubs, and about 100 dated in 1954 and two dated 9-56. The closest I found to 1960, is a 6-62 that looks pretty clean. He had a few 1961 hubs but all were 36h. The hubs all have bits of spokes attached, he said they were cut out of auction bikes to use for parts. The guy's in his 90's and said he's been messing with old bikes all his life. He's got two 40ft trailers packed full of parts in buckets, boxes, and barrels.

I think the consensus is that the bike is a 1960 due to the style of forks but I had no luck finding a 59 or 60 dated hub shell as of yet.
Were there ever 1959 or 1960 AW hubs? Did the SW and AW coexist at the same time?


Also, where to find spokes? were these originally cross 3 or 4 pattern?
What length spokes for an AW and a Dunlop rim? The old guy I got the rim from said he thinks they were 11 1/8" spokes but he only had 6 old Torrington branded spokes in a box there.

The old spokes were badly rusted, and the hub in there now is a Komet coaster brake, so they won't work.

The spokes in the rim I found are for an sw hub and also badly rusted with a half dozen mismatched spoke nipples so those won't be of any use either.
I called around to about a dozen bike shops and most don't sell spokes, the few that do wanted more than a dollar each. The last time I bought spokes years ago I think I re-spoked two wheels for $8. That wasn't all that long ago. I'm not paying $45-$50 to re-spoke one wheel.

I stripped the rim down and it lays flat so its in decent shape that way. I did break loose the hub end caps so I can open it up to see what shape its in.

The single rim isn't the ideal fix but it does match the front wheel well. I'd rather find a perfect wheelset but I don't see that happening and so far this one wheel is the best I've seen so far if I want to keep it original.

I'm leaning toward using the '62 AW hub in the pic below but am thinking about using the SW hub because it may be closer to the correct year for the bike.



SW on right is the one I removed from the wheel today.



Compared to existing front rim


Oh man, a bucket of SA hubs! I know I'm short a single low gear pawl and spring, and probably the DS nut. I was going to hunt for another online, or at the co op.

Edit: I just wanted to mark my interest in the hubs because poorly functioning or non- functional hubs will still have useful parts. Now here's an idea, I have a 1960 AW hub, with spokes for an ISO 590 rim. The rim is shot, and I used one low gear pawl and spring to replace a missing low gear pawl on the Schwinn's hub (no evidence it was ever there). Perhaps we could arrange a trade? It doesn't even have to be a trade, since that hub is making my Enpluswunosis (say it out loud) flare up and I'm looking at frames with 120mm rear spacing to make a three speed...something.

I've attached photos of my hub shell and spokes. If interested I'll make sure not to mangle the nipples.




I took a spoke out. The nipple was free and came out without issue. The spoke is 283mm, or 11 ⅛" long, for the 4 cross pattern used.

Last edited by Unca_Sam; 01-19-21 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 01-19-21, 09:09 AM
  #23807  
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam View Post
Oh man, a bucket of SA hubs! I know I'm short a single low gear pawl and spring, and probably the DS nut. I was going to hunt for another online, or at the co op.
There's no co ops around here that I know of, never heard of any such thing till I found this site.

The guy didn't have A bucket of SA hubs, he had a trailer full of buckets, barrels, boxes, etc. He had two full size, 40+ foot long tractor trailers full of old parts, plus a few outbuildings, his porch, basement, and a few old campers all packed with old bike stuff.
I answered an ad for a Hercules girls bike, which turned out to have a Shimano hub with wheels that likely came from a Huffy on it. When I said I needed rims, he dug around in the back of an old van and handed me the 40h Dunlop rim. He said he had whole wheel sets but he wanted $250 for a perfect pair. He said all the hubs in the buckets came from junk bikes, bent rims, or were missing parts. All were missing things like sprockets, bearing cones, axle nuts, etc but most were fairly clean looking. Most of the bikes he had that were whole had police auction tags on them from NYC with dates all in the early 70's. I didn't ask his age but I'd guess he was in his 90's. He knew what the parts were but didn't sound like he was ever a bike guy, just someone who bought and sold what he could. I saw no tools and all the hubs had cut spokes hanging on them. He had about 200 ladies frames laying in a pile outback, stripped bare, and about 30 or so mens frames in the one trailer that I saw. Plus a bunch of Schwinn, Columbia, and Ross bikes that were somewhat complete but rough.
He didn't seem to value the loose parts much, I got the rim and two AW hubs for $20, plus a bag full of other bits and pieces I found in the trailer. He did have a couple of really clean bikes but he said they weren't for sale. One an early 60's Robin Hood, another a later model Raleigh Sports, another a late 60's Sprite 5 speed, and a row of Schwinn three speeds that looked pretty decent.
Everything looks like its been sitting for 30+ years. At first he didn't want to open things up for me to look around, but eventually he let me walk through the two trailers and one camper. The trailers are organized, the camper and smaller buildings are a mess. Boxes piled to the ceiling, bikes, wheels, and old tires everywhere. It was impossible to even walk in most of them.
My take on it was that when he goes, someone is going to need a dozen big trucks and 50 people to move it all.
I hinted at a price for a bucket of hubs but he balked at the thought of letting that many go, he had to inspect and write down what I took as if he had some sort of inventory. I looked for another SW for parts but the only one I found was in another wheel and he said that wheel was part of a set and wanted $300 for the set.

How close to the date of bike production were these bikes? Could a 1960 model Dunelt have come with a 57 dated hub?
The fact that this was converted to a coaster brake makes me think this bike may have come with a problematic SW hub, it may well have been why the back wheel was changed. Also, is there any chance the bike is earlier? Or does all the Raleigh branded bits guarantee it being no earlier than 1960? Could it be newer?
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Old 01-19-21, 09:35 AM
  #23808  
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Originally Posted by 2fat2fly View Post
There's no co ops around here that I know of, never heard of any such thing till I found this site.

The guy didn't have A bucket of SA hubs, he had a trailer full of buckets, barrels, boxes, etc. He had two full size, 40+ foot long tractor trailers full of old parts, plus a few outbuildings, his porch, basement, and a few old campers all packed with old bike stuff.
I answered an ad for a Hercules girls bike, which turned out to have a Shimano hub with wheels that likely came from a Huffy on it. When I said I needed rims, he dug around in the back of an old van and handed me the 40h Dunlop rim. He said he had whole wheel sets but he wanted $250 for a perfect pair. He said all the hubs in the buckets came from junk bikes, bent rims, or were missing parts. All were missing things like sprockets, bearing cones, axle nuts, etc but most were fairly clean looking. Most of the bikes he had that were whole had police auction tags on them from NYC with dates all in the early 70's. I didn't ask his age but I'd guess he was in his 90's. He knew what the parts were but didn't sound like he was ever a bike guy, just someone who bought and sold what he could. I saw no tools and all the hubs had cut spokes hanging on them. He had about 200 ladies frames laying in a pile outback, stripped bare, and about 30 or so mens frames in the one trailer that I saw. Plus a bunch of Schwinn, Columbia, and Ross bikes that were somewhat complete but rough.
He didn't seem to value the loose parts much, I got the rim and two AW hubs for $20, plus a bag full of other bits and pieces I found in the trailer. He did have a couple of really clean bikes but he said they weren't for sale. One an early 60's Robin Hood, another a later model Raleigh Sports, another a late 60's Sprite 5 speed, and a row of Schwinn three speeds that looked pretty decent.
Everything looks like its been sitting for 30+ years. At first he didn't want to open things up for me to look around, but eventually he let me walk through the two trailers and one camper. The trailers are organized, the camper and smaller buildings are a mess. Boxes piled to the ceiling, bikes, wheels, and old tires everywhere. It was impossible to even walk in most of them.
My take on it was that when he goes, someone is going to need a dozen big trucks and 50 people to move it all.
I hinted at a price for a bucket of hubs but he balked at the thought of letting that many go, he had to inspect and write down what I took as if he had some sort of inventory. I looked for another SW for parts but the only one I found was in another wheel and he said that wheel was part of a set and wanted $300 for the set.

How close to the date of bike production were these bikes? Could a 1960 model Dunelt have come with a 57 dated hub?
The fact that this was converted to a coaster brake makes me think this bike may have come with a problematic SW hub, it may well have been why the back wheel was changed. Also, is there any chance the bike is earlier? Or does all the Raleigh branded bits guarantee it being no earlier than 1960? Could it be newer?
I edited my earlier post, so make sure you check it out again .
I'm not sure about Dunelt and Raleigh. I know that the British Cycle Corporation owned most other smaller brands (like Hercules) for about 15 years before T.I. bought Raleigh in the late 50's and shifted production to Nottingham. By 1962, production was reportedly centralized in Nottingham and Worksop. Try Google and Sheldon Brown for more info.

I think you may want to define the scope of your project better. For instance, you thought stitching a new cover for the saddle and replacing the rivets would be uneconomical, but you're worried about a date matched hub shell and rims. Is your goal to keep the bike as original as possible, to restore to like new condition with new or excellent replacements, or to get it rolling again to enjoy it? It's something I ask myself before I get bogged down in the work. For the 3 speeds, the goal was to use as many parts that came with the bikes as possible. For my Miyata 912, it's to bring it to like new condition. For the Raleigh Super Course, it was to build a solid fixed gear bike for cheaper than I could buy (of similar quality). What is feasible for your Dunelt?
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Old 01-19-21, 09:42 AM
  #23809  
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Go with the AW. The SW's weren't really robust and if you don't have the matching indicator chain, forget it. Some SW's need special indicators on both sides.
I admire your commitment to the restoration. Just don't lose perspective and make it harder than need be.
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Old 01-19-21, 10:05 AM
  #23810  
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
Go with the AW. The SW's weren't really robust and if you don't have the matching indicator chain, forget it. Some SW's need special indicators on both sides.
I admire your commitment to the restoration. Just don't lose perspective and make it harder than need be.
Great "words of wisdom" clubman! The reality is, most folks outside this forum don't care anyways. Its a British three speed and that is all it needs to be. Have fun with it and enjoy the ride.
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Old 01-19-21, 11:27 AM
  #23811  
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam View Post
The frame was built with almost an inch of additional clearance? I couldn't get 597 wheels into the Hercules frame with 590 wheels without rubbing all the way around the fenders!
Lentons were built for the 27" wheel size. Most of the Sports models, regardless of marque, were built for 26" by 1 3/8" or 28" by 1.5". As a very loose general rule of thumb, if its a 3-speed and it has 27" wheels as the OEM parts, it probably has Reynolds 531 alloy somewhere in the frame too.

Originally Posted by 2fat2fly View Post
. The guy who sold me the wheel said the hub is likely junk, he said none of the SW hubs were any good.

I think the consensus is that the bike is a 1960 due to the style of forks but I had no luck finding a 59 or 60 dated hub shell as of yet.
Were there ever 1959 or 1960 AW hubs? Did the SW and AW coexist at the same time?


Also, where to find spokes? were these originally cross 3 or 4 pattern?
What length spokes for an AW and a Dunlop rim? The old guy I got the rim from said he thinks they were 11 1/8" spokes but he only had 6 old Torrington branded spokes in a box there.
That wasn't all that long ago. I'm not paying $45-$50 to re-spoke one wheel.

I stripped the rim down and it lays flat so its in decent shape that way. I did break loose the hub end caps so I can open it up to see what shape its in.

The single rim isn't the ideal fix but it does match the front wheel well. I'd rather find a perfect wheelset but I don't see that happening and so far this one wheel is the best I've seen so far if I want to keep it original.

I'm leaning toward using the '62 AW hub in the pic below but am thinking about using the SW hub because it may be closer to the correct year for the bike.



SW on right is the one I removed from the wheel today.
The SW was meant to replace the AW in the late 1950s and so for a brief period, the AW was out of production. But the SW showed after about a year that it had production issues, probably related to insufficient metallurgy in the pawls. clubman is correct; they slip, which is really disheartening. If you wanted to embark on a project, you might be able to find someone that could make the pawls so they don't wear out and crumble, but that would be a bit of a task. SA went back to the AW within about 18 months or so; the SWs are only stamped in two years. I suspect you are correct- your bike was probably made with an SW which failed. 'SW' has come to mean 'sometimes works' or 'seldom works' whereas AW can be construed as 'always works'. At any rate don't feel bad; just use an early 60s or find a 50s AW and build up the wheel. They used a 4-cross pattern. Unless you find something crazy in the way of spokes, get used to the idea of paying real money for them. If you want them to look the part, use DT Swiss or similar stainless non-butted.

IMO its not crazy to spend $50 on spokes for one wheel. If you do this right (and it appears that your interests lie in that direction) the bike will be a fine rider and give many more years of service. After all, it was originally designed for about a 100 year service life (and I have friends locally that have 3-speeds over 100 years old that ride fine and are plenty reliable) with proper service. You'll want to put a proper set of tires on the bike, a decent set of brake pads and if you pay attention to the little details it will be a charming ride. I own far too many bikes, some of which have frames custom built for me. But my Raleigh Superbe speed gets most of the miles.

Last edited by Salubrious; 01-19-21 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 01-19-21, 04:24 PM
  #23812  
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam View Post
I edited my earlier post, so make sure you check it out again .
I'm not sure about Dunelt and Raleigh. I know that the British Cycle Corporation owned most other smaller brands (like Hercules) for about 15 years before T.I. bought Raleigh in the late 50's and shifted production to Nottingham. By 1962, production was reportedly centralized in Nottingham and Worksop. Try Google and Sheldon Brown for more info.

I think you may want to define the scope of your project better. For instance, you thought stitching a new cover for the saddle and replacing the rivets would be uneconomical, but you're worried about a date matched hub shell and rims. Is your goal to keep the bike as original as possible, to restore to like new condition with new or excellent replacements, or to get it rolling again to enjoy it? It's something I ask myself before I get bogged down in the work. For the 3 speeds, the goal was to use as many parts that came with the bikes as possible. For my Miyata 912, it's to bring it to like new condition. For the Raleigh Super Course, it was to build a solid fixed gear bike for cheaper than I could buy (of similar quality). What is feasible for your Dunelt?
I'm not trying to restore it, just put it back the way it should be.
The rear wheel is borderline junk and needs to be replaced. My thought is that if I'm going to build a new wheel, I might as well build it the right way the first time. Spokes apparently not cheap anymore so building a wheel will likely nearly double what I've got in the bike already.
I've already got far more into it in time than I can ever get out of it. Whether or not it becomes my daily rider or not, I'll likely have to keep it till I die.

I've been searching the web for pics and other's descriptions of various Dunelt bikes, it looks to me like the last year for the Birmingham style forks was 1963, in 1964 the forks change to the type with the flat chrome cap, and the frame looses the pump pegs as well. The Raleigh chainguard, (hockey stick style) seems to start with 1960.
I see quite a few with a 3 speed and coaster brake hub, but no single speed coaster brake bikes. I did see a few older single speed freewheel bikes but those looked older with the wide cg and different decals.
Does the serial number give any info about these bikes?
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Old 01-19-21, 04:43 PM
  #23813  
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Originally Posted by 2fat2fly View Post
I'm not trying to restore it, just put it back the way it should be.
The rear wheel is borderline junk and needs to be replaced. My thought is that if I'm going to build a new wheel, I might as well build it the right way the first time. Spokes apparently not cheap anymore so building a wheel will likely nearly double what I've got in the bike already.
I've already got far more into it in time than I can ever get out of it. Whether or not it becomes my daily rider or not, I'll likely have to keep it till I die.

I've been searching the web for pics and other's descriptions of various Dunelt bikes, it looks to me like the last year for the Birmingham style forks was 1963, in 1964 the forks change to the type with the flat chrome cap, and the frame looses the pump pegs as well. The Raleigh chainguard, (hockey stick style) seems to start with 1960.
I see quite a few with a 3 speed and coaster brake hub, but no single speed coaster brake bikes. I did see a few older single speed freewheel bikes but those looked older with the wide cg and different decals.
Does the serial number give any info about these bikes?
Rarely. Most of the serial number data has been lost.

I wouldn't worry about the cost of a wheel; it rarely works out that the cost of renovation is somehow less than that of the acquisition on something like this. The value of British 3-speeds isn't usually in their cost. Its in their charm and utility. The former is really hard to valuate; the latter only slightly easier. The coaster brake SAs do not have the reputation of reliability as the AW hubs have.
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Old 01-19-21, 05:21 PM
  #23814  
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I'm not trying to restore it, just put it back the way it should be.

From the Cambridge dictionary. Restoration: the act or process of returning something to its earlier good condition or position...

Whether or not it becomes my daily rider or not, I'll likely have to keep it till I die.

Just wait till you stumble across a nicer, pristine example. It's like a new love affair.

I've been searching the web for pics and other's descriptions of various Dunelt bikes, it looks to me like the last year for the Birmingham style forks was 1963, in 1964 the forks change to the type with the flat chrome cap, and the frame looses the pump pegs as well. The Raleigh chainguard, (hockey stick style) seems to start with 1960.

Don't assume anything from what you find or see on the internet. Raleigh had a huge international market and sold different equipment on the same bikes to each market. I've seen Dunelts of the same year with Birmingham forks and D thimbles. SA hub dates are vague since they made huge inventories and we've seen many hubs with nonsensical dates, ie 14 - 61

I see quite a few with a 3 speed and coaster brake hub, but no single speed coaster brake bikes. I did see a few older single speed freewheel bikes but those looked older with the wide cg and different decals.

Same as above. Wait till you stumble across some Malaysian bikes and see what they're kitted out with. I had a 70's Raleigh with a single freewheel and rod brakes. It was a Sports, not a DL-1 or Tourist.
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Old 01-19-21, 05:47 PM
  #23815  
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
Go with the AW. The SW's weren't really robust and if you don't have the matching indicator chain, forget it. Some SW's need special indicators on both sides.
I admire your commitment to the restoration. Just don't lose perspective and make it harder than need be.

I took this out of the SW hub when I wiped it down for he pic.



This came out of the SW hub, the left side has a hole but it don't seem to be drilled through to anything.
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Old 01-19-21, 06:04 PM
  #23816  
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The hole suggest that this was a two piece indicator. The one you are showing should be tapped to accept the thread from the second indicator rod which is inserted from the NDS and screws into the one shown. You need both pieces to adjust the hub to make it functional. Another reason to go with the AW.
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Old 01-19-21, 06:15 PM
  #23817  
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
I'm not trying to restore it, just put it back the way it should be.

From the Cambridge dictionary. Restoration: the act or process of returning something to its earlier good condition or position...

Whether or not it becomes my daily rider or not, I'll likely have to keep it till I die.

Just wait till you stumble across a nicer, pristine example. It's like a new love affair.

I've been searching the web for pics and other's descriptions of various Dunelt bikes, it looks to me like the last year for the Birmingham style forks was 1963, in 1964 the forks change to the type with the flat chrome cap, and the frame looses the pump pegs as well. The Raleigh chainguard, (hockey stick style) seems to start with 1960.

Don't assume anything from what you find or see on the internet. Raleigh had a huge international market and sold different equipment on the same bikes to each market. I've seen Dunelts of the same year with Birmingham forks and D thimbles. SA hub dates are vague since they made huge inventories and we've seen many hubs with nonsensical dates, ie 14 - 61

I see quite a few with a 3 speed and coaster brake hub, but no single speed coaster brake bikes. I did see a few older single speed freewheel bikes but those looked older with the wide cg and different decals.

Same as above. Wait till you stumble across some Malaysian bikes and see what they're kitted out with. I had a 70's Raleigh with a single freewheel and rod brakes. It was a Sports, not a DL-1 or Tourist.
I'm basically comparing mine to what was sold here. Bikes with hubs dated 1961 to 63 have basically been the same as mine, same decals, same forks, same frame and pegs, same cg, and, same saddle, etc.

I was never a fan of rod brakes, the few I rode didn't work well at all and the bikes seemed clunky to me. I've seen a few 26x1 3/8" tire rod brake bikes, but most seem to be from other countries.

Who sold Dunelt here? I don't remember ever seeing one on the showroom floor anywhere over the years. I do remember Raleigh and Robin Hood, but the only RH bikes I used to see were kids bikes. They weren't in the Raleigh catalog, they weren't on the Raleigh price lists. I suspect the sub brands like Dunelt, Robin Hood, Hercules, and Armsrong were likely sold through private bike distributors and not direct through Raleigh dealers from Raleigh or Derby back then. Has anyone ever seen a catalog for Dunelt from the 60's era? Or for any of the sub brands?
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Old 01-19-21, 06:40 PM
  #23818  
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Where is here? I'm from Toronto and I've got a 1965 Merchants distributor catalogue that lists a bunch of Raleigh models but no Dunelts. We saw lots of them in TO but perhaps they were withdrawn from the national market by that time. In '93, I was in Groves Cycle on College St and they had no less than 6 early 60's NOS Dunelts (D forks), hanging from the walls. Perhaps they got a deal on the remaining stock because they had no other 3 speeds at all. Why didn't I buy a few.
I'm going to try to make a gracious exit here by suggesting that it's very difficult to nail down what your bike should have been even if you had some documentation because Raleigh was an international juggernaut that was in some ways, out of control. Anecdotal snapshots from online sources can only point you in a direction but they will never be gospel. I've been horsetrading 3 speeds for a few decades now and I've learned to enjoy the ride, not the technicalities.
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Old 01-19-21, 07:45 PM
  #23819  
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My offer stands:

If you have the rim, I have the hub and spokes.
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Old 01-19-21, 09:36 PM
  #23820  
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If he unthreaded the indicator in the pic, wouldn't that likely mean the other indicator rod is still in the hub?
Weren't there also some of those that used a single indicator, the same as the one for the AW?
If I remember right, any that were repaired were also usually converted for simplicity.

The ticket to running an SW hub is to have a supply of spare parts and a lot of patience. They also work better when its warm out, cold weather thickens the oil and can make the pawls sticky. Most that I've had slipped in high, about half that I've cleaned up worked find with just a cleaning, but they have a horrible track record and sometimes making one work just right is simply a matter of mixing and matching parts till it acts as it should. It will never act or be an AW.
I've ridden on a few SW hubs but never far. Even a good working example often gives you a 'bad' or missed shift sometimes resulting in a slip or neutral situation. After a few miles you get the hang of shifting them and you start to know what a partial or bad shift sounds like vs. a complete shift with proper engagement.
I would never just lace one into a wheel without first having it apart to assess its condition.
They used to be a lot more common but they've faded away by attrition over the years, no new parts are available for them so you need to rely on spare hubs for parts or else pay top dollar online for parts that have become rare these days.
I would hunt down four new 283mm spokes and lace up that 62 hub you have there.

In my opinion, your bike looks to be in the early 60's, what i see is a bike with the later chain guard, pre-65 Birmingham or Norman style fork, a Raleigh frame and likely mostly Raleigh bolt ons. I can't remember if the one piece chain case boss made it all the way to 1964 or not. I've got a Dunelt here that was likely wrecked and used for parts years ago. It came from a shop clean out a few years ago. I saved it because it looked to be an almost new bike that someone bent the forks and frame on. I've been meaning to get to it one of these days and attempt a repair. The forks are like 2f's Dunelt, as is the frame, decals, saddle, and crankset. It also still has the chain case braze on on the right chain stay and still retains the oil port in the BB. The rear hub is dated 63-3. I have a 1958, which has an SW hub, which still used the wider chainguard. That bike is stripped, no wheels, no brakes.

You posted before that your serial number was 105620 XA, the Serial number on my Dunelt with the 63-3 hub is 211555 AA, The 58 has no serial number that I can find. I have another larger Dunelt, with a hub dated 62-2 and the serial number on that one is 102629 A
From such a small sample, its hard to tell if the serial numbers somehow denote the year they were made of if they were just sequential frame numbers. If the numbers are sequential, it would point to yours being slightly later than mine with the 62-2 hub. The serial number may also indicate the year of production by the first digit, but that's only another guess, in that case it would make the bike a late 61 frame built for either a later 1961 or possibly a 1962 model.
Its just speculation going on a very small sample but maybe a serial number data base for these here may help shed some light on how and when some bikes were built. I would suspect that during the bike boom years, parts didn't likely stick around very long.
I've got quite a few AW and SW hubs from various clean outs last year and the year before. I'm finding that the majority of the older hubs are 1954 and 1962, with only a small number of other years. In the later models, 1969,70, and 77 are the most common in the AW hubs.
I've seen 57 and 58 SW hubs only, even though I'm told they made them from '55 to '60.

Maybe if the guy who sold you that hub will part with a bucket or two of hubs, it may be worth while to see if he's willing to part with a few. From the sound of it, that won't be your last or only English bike, so grab the parts when you can, they don't make them anymore.

Spokes are quickly becoming a big problem, what used to be a minor expense now determines the fate of a project. It seems no one stocks or carries spokes, and those that do don't stock plain galvanized spokes. There's no good reason for a set of spokes to do a set of wheels being over $20. About 35 years ago I bought a 50lb box of SA branded spokes from a wholesale distributor a local shop dealt with. That was roughly 2500 spokes for about $90. Think about a box roughly the size of a 30pack of 12oz beer cans filled with spokes. They had four sizes available, I bought four sizes. Those are mostly gone over the years, but for years spokes were roughly 9/1$ for plain 14g spokes with nipples. Its only been the last few years that they went through the roof.
They didn't go up that much on the wholesale end, only the retail end. two years ago I ordered several bags of 100 292mm spokes, they were $11. per bag from Wheelmaster through one of the major suppliers. Those suppliers have been sold out for months now.
I have a hard time believing there are that many wheelbuilders around these days to suddenly exhaust the supply of four or five wholesale destributors and seemingly all of the US and China combined.
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Old 01-20-21, 02:30 AM
  #23821  
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
Where is here? I'm from Toronto and I've got a 1965 Merchants distributor catalogue that lists a bunch of Raleigh models but no Dunelts. We saw lots of them in TO but perhaps they were withdrawn from the national market by that time. In '93, I was in Groves Cycle on College St and they had no less than 6 early 60's NOS Dunelts (D forks), hanging from the walls. Perhaps they got a deal on the remaining stock because they had no other 3 speeds at all. Why didn't I buy a few.
I'm going to try to make a gracious exit here by suggesting that it's very difficult to nail down what your bike should have been even if you had some documentation because Raleigh was an international juggernaut that was in some ways, out of control. Anecdotal snapshots from online sources can only point you in a direction but they will never be gospel. I've been horsetrading 3 speeds for a few decades now and I've learned to enjoy the ride, not the technicalities.
I hear you, but I just figure knowing a bit about it and when it was made helps me hunt the right parts.
Most of the D forks I've seen were later 60's models, 1968-1971 models. All the early models with pre 1964 hubs had the forks like mine. After that for a period they apparently shared forks with Robin Hood and Hercules.
I've even found a few early 70's Raleigh's with the flat top fork crown vs. the tubular version. All of those were made in Holland, Taiwan, or Maylasia in 1972.
I'm seeing a lot of 70's Raleigh models with Rigida steel rims not Sturmey Archer or Dunlop. The bikes still say made in England, the last one was a 1975 model. The Rigida rims were 36h. If it were one bike, I'd assume someone built a set of wheels for it at some point but I've seen a dozen or more now, all with matching wheels. Seeing non English parts on an English bike just doesn't sit well with me. Its one thing if its a road bike but not on a three speed. The Weinmann brakes on the newer sports models are something that really bugs me, as is the aluminum Pletscher rear racks they all seem to have.
I could certainly go online and order two brand new three speed wheels for this bike, they'd come through with a Shimano hub and no name 36h rim. To me, that makes it just like an old Huffy, complete with a Japanese hub.

Something else that I haven't figured out is what the Komet coaster brake wheel on it came from, its a 40h hub and rim, which is something that's inherently British as far as I know. I've had a few German bikes and all were 36/36h rims. So are Schwinns, so what would that wheel have been from? The rim isn't correct, its rusted to bad to ID. Its a quality rim, it would have had to be to get that rusty and not fail. Its double wall just like the SA and Dunlop rims but deeper with more flare to the sides.
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Old 01-20-21, 03:20 AM
  #23822  
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam View Post
My offer stands:

If you have the rim, I have the hub and spokes.
I'm not sure what your looking for? I only have the three hubs, the SW that came from the wheel I bought, and the 56 and 62 dated AW hubs. The 56 is a 36h, and the 62 is 40h and in immaculate condition. I pulled the internals out of both hubs and both were spot clean. The 62 looks almost new, and the 56 is pretty close. Certainly not a parts hub.
I was sort of thinking it may be a good hub to keep around just in case I did find a set of 36h rims instead.

I didn't try and buy the whole lot, the guy only seemed to want to sell ALL the hubs or none of the hubs. I'd need a big truck to move that many hubs. Its far too much weight to just load in the trunk of the car, not to mention the space it would take up. If I knew the trailer would roll down the road, I'd try and buy the whole thing, maybe both. I don't suppose it would take much. He only seemed to value the whole wheels, not the parts. None of the hubs looked like junk, nearly all of them were likely just in need of a cleaning and some fresh lube, some of the buckets were full of oil, he either dumped oil over them or as trying to store them in oil.
A few were missing small parts, things like bearing lock nuts, a cone here or there, sprockets, etc. The worst part was digging through a pile of hubs buried in oil that were covered in cut off spoke ends. I was like reaching blind into each bucket for a porcupine. All I had was a pair of leather gloves and I didn't care to get them soaked in oil.
I took three buckets at a time, unloading one into the top of the other two and going through each hub checking the dates.

He also mentioned he had some 'new' 3 speed hubs, but he didn't offer to dig them out or say where they were.
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Old 01-20-21, 03:41 AM
  #23823  
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Originally Posted by 2fat2fly View Post
I'm not sure what your looking for? I only have the three hubs, the SW that came from the wheel I bought, and the 56 and 62 dated AW hubs. The 56 is a 36h, and the 62 is 40h and in immaculate condition. I pulled the internals out of both hubs and both were spot clean. The 62 looks almost new, and the 56 is pretty close. Certainly not a parts hub.
I was sort of thinking it may be a good hub to keep around just in case I did find a set of 36h rims instead.

I didn't try and buy the whole lot, the guy only seemed to want to sell ALL the hubs or none of the hubs. I'd need a big truck to move that many hubs. Its far too much weight to just load in the trunk of the car, not to mention the space it would take up. If I knew the trailer would roll down the road, I'd try and buy the whole thing, maybe both. I don't suppose it would take much. He only seemed to value the whole wheels, not the parts. None of the hubs looked like junk, nearly all of them were likely just in need of a cleaning and some fresh lube, some of the buckets were full of oil, he either dumped oil over them or as trying to store them in oil.
A few were missing small parts, things like bearing lock nuts, a cone here or there, sprockets, etc. The worst part was digging through a pile of hubs buried in oil that were covered in cut off spoke ends. I was like reaching blind into each bucket for a porcupine. All I had was a pair of leather gloves and I didn't care to get them soaked in oil.
I took three buckets at a time, unloading one into the top of the other two and going through each hub checking the dates.

He also mentioned he had some 'new' 3 speed hubs, but he didn't offer to dig them out or say where they were.
I have a 40 hole 60 8 AW hub that I don't have a use for. It is short one low gear pawl assembly internally, plus the indicator rod, DS nut and anti-rotation washers. It is laced to its rim by 40 rust-free galvanized spokes. I'm offering them to you for your project, since you already have a new 40 hole rim. The spokes are 283mm for a 4 cross pattern.
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Old 01-20-21, 08:02 AM
  #23824  
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Originally Posted by Salubrious View Post
The SW was meant to replace the AW in the late 1950s and so for a brief period, the AW was out of production. But the SW showed after about a year that it had production issues, probably related to insufficient metallurgy in the pawls. clubman is correct; they slip, which is really disheartening.
I have several SW hubs. I've not seen problems with the pawls themselves, but rather their failure to reliably engage, especially in cold weather. A nice thing about the SW hub is that it is dead-easy to overhaul compared to an AW hub. Fewer parts, no fiddly little pawl springs to lose, and even if the pawls do get damaged, they are symmetrical and can be flipped over to expose a fresh engagement face.
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Old 01-20-21, 09:30 AM
  #23825  
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
I have several SW hubs. I've not seen problems with the pawls themselves, but rather their failure to reliably engage, especially in cold weather. A nice thing about the SW hub is that it is dead-easy to overhaul compared to an AW hub. Fewer parts, no fiddly little pawl springs to lose, and even if the pawls do get damaged, they are symmetrical and can be flipped over to expose a fresh engagement face.
I have a complete SW hub ('56) at home that I pulled out of a parts bin just because I wanted to have a look at one.
It appears virtually new and barely used which leads me to believe it was swapped out quite early.
Q- Did Raleigh instigate some sort of recall back then?
-Did the dealers replace the hubs/back wheels?
Obviously it would have been a marketing disaster on a bicycle guaranteed for 100 years.
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