phillyrider

I have a project frame for the summer. I am not at all well versed in older French bikes - but this looked like a fun project bike.
I am interested in opinions/comments.

Some info that I received from the seller:
1930s/1940s french frame, unknown
Hand lined box lining
Rear drop out has 1043 or 1048, the 41
Bottom bracket has AC in a diamond
BB stamp (hard to read) has a 7 X, triangle

Bottom Bracket 68mm wide, french thread
26.0 seatpost
22. quill stem
likely 3-4 speed cyclo/simplex
built-in porteur chain guard holder
spacing: front 90mm, rear 110mm

Although a likely long-shot, does anyone know if brand/mfg?
Is 1930s-1940s about right (maybe the 41 on the drop out is 1941?)

I am looking to keep the frame as-is (just cleaned up) and use some getting around town parts - probably simple, single speed.
Any suggestions on where to get basic parts.
If I really like the bike than period correct could be down the road.

Thanks

phillyrider

Some extra pics...

Catnap 

i don't know the builder, but that looks like a pretty nice French randonneur / porteur frame. It's most likely designed for 650B wheels. It's made for a chainstay-mount derailleur (which would bolt to the tab in front of the drive-side drop-out) with an external tensioning spring that connects to the loop on the drive-side chainstay just behind the bottom bracket shell:



looking at the braze-ons around the BB cluster, they're intended for mounting a chain guard. Lack of a front derailleur braze on indicated that it either didn't have a front derailleur or used a clamp-on model. either way, it was probably rod-actuated as opposed to one controlled by a lever and shift cable. Crankset would be cottered, probably an RFG, Duprat, Nervar, etc.

Brakes were probably an old style of side-pull like LAM. Would have had fenders and racks as well.

Where to find this stuff? Ebay.fr (ebay france) is your best bet. It will be pricey, especially the derailleurs and wheels. I have actually hoarded up nearly all the parts for a restoration of this type and could be convinced to part with them if you're interested. Or you could go the cheaper route and slap a 3-speed SA hub on the back and call it done, it wouldn't be out of place for the period.

phillyrider

Thanks...that rear deraileur is really cool...and this is helpful!

I knew that this would be quite a project. I am not sure if I am ready for fully period correct - although, I may start by getting a cottered crankset/BB set-up going.

If you have full bike pics - It would be cool to see them.

phillyrider

Again thanks for the info...on the brakes, I did not understand why the back brake hole would face down (rather than across). The 2nd pic above shows this.
A quick search on LAM brakes via e-bay shows this...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lam-Dural-de...item257cbe2d3c




A quick search on Deprat has a nice cottered crank:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DUPRAT-CHAIN...torefresh=true


Very cool....I am going to start with the Duprat crank...I imagine that the bottom bracket is going to be difficult to size right.
With 68mm - any suggestions on spindle? links/suggestions are welcome.


Thanks again.

SirMike1983 

If you do it as an original/relic type project, it would be killer. I'm especially drawn to pre-bike boom/pre 10-speed stuff, and I think you could do a very nice, true to the era bicycle. The road ahead is a long one, but I think it would be worth it to do it right in the end. If you do that, you'll probably find it's a bike you'll keep the rest of your life. There's nothing like a really, really old bicycle put together the right way.

iab

I know little to nothing about French bikes. But if that were an Italian frame, 30s-40s, the Y-shaped chain-stays would make it a city/sport bike, definitely not a road/touring bike. Its the same case for the pump pegs behind the seat tube. The "brake" hole is somewhat problematic for me. Typically on city bikes, that was used securing the fender. But those bikes had rod brakes but this bike does not have the braze-ons for rod brakes.

But again, that is for Italy, I don't know if that holds true for France.

phillyrider

I got the frame on C&R from a seller, who knows a great deal more than I. It was a project frame that he was kind enough to let me have at cost.

Probably a bad quote but - old french parts are like an onion. You take a piece and try not to cry...after a little parts research, that's what I am quickly finding.

For this reason - I will likely go with a basic single-speed type-build to see how I like it.
The brake hole was odd until I saw the above LAM pics. I was not sure what to do with a rear brake until I stumbled onto this...As expected, for me this is a learning process, which is part of the fun.

Catnap 

as your search shows, the downward-facing brake hole is a common feature on French bikes of the 30's-50's. It makes mounting fenders a bit easier because the fenders can be directly attached the brake bridge.

you are going to have a tough time with the spindle length... i'm not sure what advice to give there, in my case i had a lot of spare cottered spindles and mixed and matched until i found the right size. you'll also need a French-threaded set of BB cups for a cottered spindle. AND... note that there are several different sizes of cotter pins. not totally sure how to find out which is the right one, so you might need to get whatever you can find and then file it down a little to fit.

here's the article on my 1940's mercier that I restored recently, similar to your bike: https://djcatnap.com/1950s-mercier-650b-randonneur/

phillyrider

Awesome...the article and pics really help...There is much to take in. I had also wondered about the braze-on for the chain-guard/purpose of the bottom hole.
The above pic shows that it is where the tension spring goes. The seller warned me about spindles should I choose to go cottered...It just seems the right way to go...

Thanks again - most helpful.

SirMike1983 

That's a very nice bicycle. I have always loved the use of the bullet type streamliner lamp mounted on the front fender top.

Catnap 

Thanks, Sir Mike! the one part i haven't gotten around to restoring are the lights. i need to check the bulbs and the wiring and get them working again.

AZORCH

Cool looking project - I'm envious. One question: is there tube damage (bend) at the head lugs? It sort of looks possible from the photograph ... but that could just be a product of the photo also.

phillyrider

Yes, there is some bend there. the 3rd picture shows it.
Because of the age of the frame - the seller description was that "the frame is straight by period standards".

I did pick up on it - but it is also a reason why I want to see how it rides/handles.
If it were a more modern frame, I would stay clear - but I took a chance given it's age. I could be wrong...

phillyrider

Although I may not like what I hear - I looked more closely and there is definitely a bend to the top tube.
It is not sitting well with me.

It would be helpful to get some opinions on this - worth an attempt to build?
I am on the fence if it would handle poorly. I would probably need to take it to Blinkys - which could make it a money pit...
What do you all think?

gbi

Really like the RD guard on catnaps bike.

Velognome 

The old tubes are pretty tough. Since there are no crimps, I'd have the frame aligned and straightened, checke for cracks then I'd build it and ride it. There are several shops in the area that would do it. PM me if you have trouble finding one.

Catnap 

thanks! they are hard to find, but pop up occasionally on French eBay.

Velognome 

There is a set of brakes for your frame on ebay now Buy it now is $55 with shipping! https://www.ebay.com/itm/c1940s-50s-B...item1e7c0eabf1

phillyrider

Just a quick update. Thanks so much for the above link. I have purchased the brakes in the above pic as well as a number of other period (range) source parts from the same seller, who has some french items that he can bundle with Int'l shipping. It should hopefully work out ok. I may luck out in that a french BB that he has along with the cottered spindle, as used from the donor with a triple, will size up nicely. The one spindle that I have is a smidge too short.

Thanks for the lead/links Velognome - much appreciated!

I did get the duprat cottered crank as shown in the pic, so this is coming together...

As far as the frame, I would like to get the rear spacing (110mm) to work with some tubular wheelsets that I have. I read about the sheldon brown 2x4 method, but since the frame likely needs to be straightened - it is probably worth the effort/expense to have a shop do it right/coldset. Going from 110mm to 120/130mm may be too much - I don't know since I have not taken this on before.

I appreciate all the feedback/suggestions. Philly area bike shops suggestions are welcome for the frame straightening.
Thanks again...

YoKev

I'm inspired!

But, I'm going to sit on the sidelines and just live vicariously through your French build

Can't wait to see pictures.

fender1

Bilenky Cycle Works or Via Bikes would be my suggestions. Looking forward to the finished build.

John E

That Mercier is tres cool!

phillyrider

Thanks...I think I may consider Via...I had my pogliaghi repaired at Bilenky - they did a great job. It just took a while to get into their cue.

dck

I recognize this frame as one I sold earlier this year. The buyer then offered it for sale on the CR google group. Maybe that's how you found it. I acquired the frame from a seller in San Francisco who bought it in France. Nonetheless, I have a picture of the frame as I received it.





It had CLB caliper brakes and a cyclo 3 speed derailleur, a cracked headset, stem, seatpost and saddle, bottom bracket, but no crankset. The rear brake was attached to the frame with a special clip that used the vertical hole in the brake bridge. As you can see the seatpost was shaped like a 7 with the saddle clamped to the horizontal part of the post. The saddle leather was torn and disintegrated when I tried to soften it. It also had a front light bracket mounted to the stem. When I sold the frame, I also sold most of the parts that were on the frame. I might have a few things laying around. I'll look.

I initially intended to restore it, but lost interest. I'm glad to see you are going to finish the job. I'd love to see pictures of the finished product.