MrEss

I've spent some time trying to identify a cheap find from the bike swap: a mismatched Campy bottom bracket. If anyone would like to weigh in, I'd be really grateful.

MrEss

From the "BREV. INTER" and "rifling," I think the cups are Nuovo Record thick cups. I'm sure that can be confirmed or corrected at a glance.

The spindle is a mystery to me. Note the 14 ball bearings per side. The cones are too large in diameter to fit 11 1/4" balls like a normal bottom bracket; you can't fit them in there at all. (I haven't measured yet whether they're 3/16 or 7/32.) It's obviously not the correct spindle, since it's marked for a 68mm bottom bracket width.

The small bearings and lack of a rear-end OLD marking make me think that this might be the Record spindle from 1990 as mentioned in Sutherland's. Can anybody confirm that?

rootboy 

I'm sure someone will add pertinent information and your answer. FWIW, I always thought the "thick" cups were recessed on the face surfaces, at least on the fixed cup. Not sure though. Didn't Campy change the number of balls, and size, on the Super Record BB's some time in the 80's? Sorry...more questions than answers.

MrEss

I understand that the super record BBs also had 14 3/16" balls instead of 11 1/4" ones, due to the increased diameter of the steel cones that were pressed-on to the titanium spindles.

This spindle is obviously not Ti (and there's no seam between the cone and the spindle), so there goes the super record idea.

Bianchigirll 

Just what is mismatched? it is a 68SS spindle yes? Italian cups? how long is the spindle? is it asymetrical or symetrical? I can't really tell from the pics.

I can't find my 18 bis catalog but according to my '91ish parts catalog you have a Record BB.

The Record BB shows 14 balls but the CdA only has 11.

repechage

Corsa Record, or C Record as it is often known by. Alloy cups 3/16" ball bearings, steel spindle.

Bianchigirll 

OK I found the 18bis. according to the pic the Corse Record (C-Record) only has 11 balls in the BB.

OH I think I got this too a Italian BB is the 70SS spindle not 68? is that what is mismatched?

MrEss

In addition to Bianchigirll's research on the number of balls in a C-record bottom bracket, a C-record spindle should also say "SSc" instead of "SS".

That's the biggest thing that makes me think it's mismatched. The spindle for an italian BB should say "70 SS" instead of "68 SS".

If the cranks fit I won't be too worried -- it just means the NDS crankarm will have migrated 2mm to the right.

Would the 1990 / 1991 Record BB say "BREV INTER" on the cups? I thought they'd gone completely to "MADE IN ITALY" by the mid-80s.

If 1990/91 Record BB cups said "BREV INTER" and had "rifling" then that would take a lot of the mystery away -- it would simply be a 90/91 Record BB with the wrong size spindle.

I can post more / closer pictures of each cup and the spindle, if it'll help any.

Bianchigirll 

accord to the pics in the '90ish parts book for Record (not C-Rec) they say Made it Italy.



do the bearings fit the cups?

MrEss

The bearings do seem to fit the cups pretty well. It rolls very smoothly and the balls roll on the middle of the cups.

I'd read online that in the C-record era Record and Athena shared spindles marked "SSB" even though Record used 7/32" bearings and Athena used 1/4". So, it seems possible that the cups were designed for a 1/4" bearing but fit these smaller ones anyway.

JohnDThompson 

I think the cups and bearings at least are original C-Record from the mid 80s. These used 3/16" balls, not 1/4" balls. If the spindle works smoothly with those cups and balls then it too is C-Record. If instead it works with standard cups and 1/4" balls, then the spindle is mismatched with the cups and bearings.

753proguy

The spindle is mismatched to the cups because it is a 68-SS spindle and those are Italian-thread cups, but that is a spindle that is designed for the smaller bearings, as are those aluminum cups. 14 balls of 3/16" per side would be correct for those cups with that spindle. Just to mess things up even further, however, Campy used 14 pcs. of 7/32" bearings in the 1990 and up loose-ball Record BB, but I'm not sure how/if the cups or the spindle changed, or even how to tell them apart if they did! Dumb move, Campagnolo....

I agree that those look to be 1980s C-Record parts. The spindle is marked correctly for a C-Record one (there was no "68-SSc" spindle), and has the 1 mm 'step' where the bearing surface begins, so it calls for 3/16" bearings. '-SSa' was Croce d'Aune, '-SSb' was Chorus, '-SSg' was Athena, '-SSf' was Xenon....

At that time, only C-Record and Super Record BBs used the 3/16" bearings. All others still used 1/4" ones.

I've seen that combination of parts (that the OP has) on eBay sometimes. If you put the wrong bearings in there (i.e. 1/4") it will kinda-sorta partially make up for using the incorrect spindle with those cups, in an Italian-thread frame, but I don't recommend it at all, because of where the bearings will run (incorrectly) on the bearing surfaces.

miamijim

Here is a mid 80's Corsa (C) Record BB as removed from the bike:

MrEss

Winner winner chicken dinner!

Thanks much, Miamijim, for the picture that puts the discussion and cross-referencing (of contradictory and incomplete documentation!) completely to rest.

Lessons learned:
(A) The presence or absence of a "C" on a C-record spindle (as reported here: long link) must be a manufacturing mark similar to the famous "Z".
(B) Campagnolo kept using the "BREV INTER" marking on cups well into the 1980s even after some other cups went to "Made in Italy"
(C) Working together over the internet to research something is awesome.

Ex Pres 

And that would work just fine on a nice French frame, rethreaded to Italian (I have one)

JohnDThompson 

The "70mm = Italian" is not carved in stone -- merely a heuristic, but any spindle ground for 3/16" balls could be compatible with those cups.

FWIW, Campy also used 3/16" balls in some early 60s Record bottom brackets, but at least those parts were clearly marked as such:

753proguy

Quick, name all of the 70-mm-wide BB shells on pro-level framesets that are non-Italian-threaded?
I'll wait right here while you do that......

MrEss

FWIW, this bottom bracket worked fine in my Italian-threaded Atala.

There are barely enough threads to get the lockring on, but it's on. The crank doesn't seem to have noticed that the NDS migrated 2mm to the right -- there is still plenty of clearance.

Replacing an Ultegra 6500 triple (running as a 74/130 double with only the small and middle rings) I lost approximately 2/3 of a pound on the bike by going to this bottom bracket and a Victory crankset!

dbakl

I'd think the 68 spindle in an Italian frame would put the adjustable cup almost 2mm inside the shell!

MrEss

Nope! A proper spindle would put the adjustable cup far enough out to have the lockring plus an extra mm or so... so with the smaller spindle the lockring is about 0.5mm proud of the adjustable cup. l might look for a thinner lockring some time, but it doesn't bother me much.

753proguy

The bearing shoulder spacing difference is just 2 mm, so it's not huge, plus, if you use the wrong bearing size, that can partially compensate, but I don't recommend doing that....

With the correct bearings, the chainline will be off 1 mm to the right, but that's not much at all, and adds chainstay clearance anyways.