capnjonny 

Submitted for your inspection. I





need an ID

A Magical Mystery Bike

This hodgepodge was donated to the Bike Exchange yesterday. The first thing I noticed was the early Stronglight 6 spoke crank. On closer inspection here is what I found
frame 6o cm seat tube
Frame weight including bottom bracket 5.13 lbs
Fork weight incl. pressed in bearing races 1.69 lb
Fancy (nervex?) lugs

Nervex bottom bracket shell

Campi forged dropouts on fork

Stamped dropouts (no name) at rear with the numbers 49063 cast into the left side (non drive side)dropout

Drive side dropout with integral derailleur hanger threaded for Suntour or Shimano der.

No braze on’s (cable guide, bottom bracket cable guides, bottle cages, down tube shifter bosses or the little bump that often goes below band style shifters. )
The chain stay has a clamp on guide to transition the rear derailleur cable from exposed to covered
Seat tube fits campi seat post stamped 26.2 perfectly

No chrome evedent at front forks or rear stays.

At steer tube there are vertical holes for the original head badge . spacing is (top and bottom) 1 7/8 in or 46 mm c/c

Rims are 27” Mavic ma2 with what look like Phil hubs (no markings on them) with 27 x 1 ¼ tires

Paint is a charcoal grey metallic with tinny flecks that looks original.

There are bike licenses .Top one (probably the original) California lic 3197924

Under that are 2 renewals from 1987 and 1990

This is a true franken bike with Peugeot front and Weinman rear center pull brakes , mis matched levers, Cinelli bars, Suntour shifters and front derailleur, Shimano rear der. Campi clamp on derailleur cable guide, and Zeus top tube cable guide. Looks like someone was cleaning out the garage.

Hopefully I can find the beauty hidden under all the dust and grease.

Help me identify this bike please.

From what I can see it must be early 70's or earlier?

juvela

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Thanks for sharing this interesting new arrival!

Chainset T.A. rather than Stronglight.

What is threading of steerer and shell?

Headplate fastener holes are in head tube rather than steer tube.

What is intended pillar size? You will need to measure opening since a shim is present.

May we have an image of crown and of dropouts?

Thank you.

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USAZorro

What nice bike takes a 26.2 seat post besides a Cinelli (which this isn't)?

rustystrings61 

Good eye catching that shim! I think I see a fishmouth chainstay end - does the bottom bracket have French threads? Also, the fork tip has a different treatment - is it a replacement?

T-Mar

Post size, in conjunction with Campagnolo dropouts suggests metric tubing and French threading.

seedsbelize 

Cinelli was my first guess.

cudak888 

I'll take a bet that the only thing original to the bike is the TA Pro 5 Vis crankset, and maybe not even that.

I know the deck is stacked heavily in favor of this thing being French, but I'd like to hear confirmation on this for both the steerer and bottom bracket.

Not to be insulting, but I have to ask the obvious: Was that 26.2mm with or without the shim?

The stamped dropouts sound odd - at least with the Campagnolo ones up front, but there's no indication for or against the fork having been replaced - but more importantly, it suggests "cheap frame with Nervex Pro and decent details" to me.

I'd almost say it's a Raleigh Super Course that received the seatlug treatment of an International, but despite all the parts bin building Raleigh did, I don't believe the Nervex Pro BB shell was common on these builds. Lord knows you could get a Super Course with any seatpost size under the sun though.

-Kurt

unworthy1

The fact it has both Nervex pro lugs AND a Nervex BB shell points to "high-end" frame despite stamped DOs, the Nervex shell was quite a bit pricier than most other shells BITD which is why you find dozens of makes/models with Nervex pro lugset but another brand of BB shell to save a few pence, centime or lira. It clearly has a shim in the seat tube so if a 26.2 post fits I'd guess it's a 27.2 actual seat tube inner diameter...just a guess...so probably Imperial and not metric tubing. But let's not guess: give us some actual OD tube and threading dims/specs, more close-up pix of the details (SUCH as those DOs, forkcrown, etc.) and we'll see.

capnjonny 

Here are a few pictures and a little more info.




Close inspection revealed that the rear drop outs are Huret forged. Very hard to read but it is there .

The seat post is 26.2 + . There was a shim in it . The Campi seat post fits perfectly . See pic. showing size clearly.

The lugs are Nervex as is the bottom bracket shell per photo.

The weight of frame indicates Reynolds tubing probably 531

The crank is a TA.but the non drive crank arm is a stronglight . picture shows a stronglight along side it for comparison.

Per my friend Greg, the bottom bracket is a Paul Cartridge. I don't have the right tool to remove it . will do Sat. at the shop.


Not shown , the wheels are 27 x 1 1/4 with Paul hubs and a 5 speed freewheel .

Headset threading is still undetermined

Greg, who restores old bikes for a living, thinks it could be either French or possibly English but not Raleigh . More likely a small builder.


I am guessing early 70's at the latest. He says it is a repaint. I think if that is the case it was professionally done. Doesn't look like a rattle can job.

cudak888 

With Huret drops, the deck just got stacked heavily in favor of a French build. Mind, was never quite convinced that it could be a Raleigh; lugwork looked too good for it.

Still trying to understand the seatpost though. It fit the 26.2 without the shim, correct?

I'd be surprised to see a small builder leave a big stamping on the lug without filling it though, but I've also seen some builders who like to leave the dropout ends boxy too, as here. Fishmouth stay ends may also be an indicator.

-Kurt

seypat

Is that an o-ring on the fork crown race? I've never seen that before.

capnjonny 

per request here are some more photos. Tube diameter 28 mm , drop out forged Huret, seat post 26.2

juvela

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The F mark on the seat lug is indicative.

Someone is sure to recall of what...

Awaiting the observations of @MauriceMoss

Steerer gives indication of fork's original colour but it is moot since fork not original.

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TenGrainBread 

Huret dropouts and a 28mm diameter seat tube means it's definitely French. 26.2 seat post means probably a straight gauge Durifort or Vitus 888 tubeset (I have seen @verktyg post on this somewhere...). Although with the ovalizing and pinching these seat tubes often see, it could have been meant to use a 26.4 or even 26.6.

Also, I think you mean Phil, not Paul. Paul has never made bottom brackets or 5 speed hubs.

capnjonny 

Looking through posts of 70's french bikes I am thinking this might be a 73? Motobecane Grand record or Grand jubile.

Grand Jubile had Huret dropouts and the head badge holes look like they could have been from this model.

Also the clamp on Rear derailleur cable stop looks right . Possibly the TA crank was original.

Anyway, This is the closest match to a french bike of this era I have found so far.




Problem is that the lugs and head badge don't match the Grand jubile bikes shown on the site( round head badge and front detail on lugs)

Also, what info I have showes grand jubile in 53, 58, and 64 cm where mine is 60 cm (center of crank to top of seat tube)

Photos of 72 and 74 grand record seat tube detail and 72 grand record head badge

unworthy1

No, the combo of all Nervex Pro lugset with Huret forged dropouts points very much to France but not to any Motobecane I'm aware of. I agree the fork is a replacement (Campy fork ends with Huret DOs) and anybody seen that crown before (not me)? I also would not be surprised if the seat lugs ears have been pinched and the true seat post size is 26.4 putting this in the league of Metric 531 or Vitus. Somebody cared enough to spend on PHIL (yes, not Paul) BB and hubs so together with the frame details it sure looks like a keeper, tho still a mystery (until @MauriceMoss hits the scene!).

seypat

What's the story on the solid dropouts?

juvela

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Machine likely wearing a Specialized branded set made by Hatta.

VeloBase.com - Component: Specialized

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Everyone quick to jump on a gaulic origin for the cycle - most understandable given information provided thus far.

However, we have received no information which would rule out a CH origin.

Just something to keep an open mind about - making no assertions.

Maurice shalt enlighten!

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MauriceMoss

Wish I could provide a conclusive answer here but this is a tough one.

@capnjonny - you mentioned a serial number stamped on the NDS dropout but the closeup shot of that dropout doesn’t seem to have a number on it. Could you post a pic of the number itself?

As @unworthy1 suggested, the frame is sporting a Nervex bottom bracket shell, so it's a nicer model, whatever it is.

As for identification, Nervex Pro lugs and shells were used extensively all over Europe so no help there. The metric tubing, "F" on the seat lug and the fish mouth stays would seem to indicate French origin. The vertical head badge rivet holes are no help either, as quite a few French marques used that orientation.

@juvela mentioned a possible Swiss origin, and that's definitely something to explore. However, in my experience, Swiss builders were more fond of pointy stay ends than of fish mouth ones.


Yeah, what's with those dropouts?

I'd say the solid full length Huret dropouts are definitely an uncommon feature. Never seen them in a catalog. I've only seen those on Schwinn Superiors from the early 60s (62?) and had a hard time thinking of any French maker who used them. After searching through my files I was only able to find one - a 1959 Follis (Follis as a brand doesn't seem like a great match for the OP's frame so, while there could be a connection, I doubt this is their product):





Even the "shorty" solid Huret dropouts that show up online in Huret catalogs aren't very common but you at least see those from time to time (incidentally, I've seen them more on German bikes like Rickert than on French ones, on average):





Other styles of Huret dropouts were used extensively by Motobecane, true, but I agree with @unworthy1 , this is not a Moto.


So, where does that leave us? In the murky waters of Gut Feeling™ and Wild Ass Guesses® I'm afraid.


Here are some pictures that compare a few features of this mystery frame with some examples of known products:


Brake bridge:




Seat stay caps:




Stay ends, inside:




Seat stay ends, outside:




Head badge with vertically oriented rivet holes:





There were Gitane frames from the early 60s that share some features with our mystery bike, as illustrated above. Again, this is just a guess - I've never seen a Gitane with these solid Huret dropouts.


Would love to hear what @verktyg thinks of all this.

verktyg 

@capnjonny those photos in post 15 are my Motobecanes.

Motobecane used specially made Nervex lugs which look similar to Nervex Professionals but have different "nozzles" for the main tubes.

Lugs from a 1960's Motobecane



Nervex Professional lugs



Those Huret dropouts were used in the early 60's. They were proprietary so that only Huret derailleurs would fit but a travel stop for Campy derailleurs could be filed in.


@unworthy1 "I also would not be surprised if the seat lugs ears have been pinched and the true seat post size is 26.4 putting this in the league of Metric 531 or Vitus."

The fork is most likely a replacement from the late 70's to mid 80's. I've seen that crown before but can't remember where.

My guess is that it's a quality constructeur built French frame. Up into the the 70's many French towns had bike shops that custom built constructeur frames which they sold as complete bikes. Rene Herse and Singer are famous constructeur names.

So unless you can find a match, you might have to live with your bike being a bâtard (of unknown pedigree).

verktyg

juvela

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Thanks so much for all of this great information @MauriceMoss & @verktyg!

capnjonny they give you the very finest of help.

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One thing have yet to do is check me headplate collection for the 46mm vertical dimension...

If anything found will report.

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capnjonny 

Thanks everyone for all the replies. I would really like to be able to identify the builder of this frame. For the time being it is hanging in the garage while I get ready to go to Burning Man this Sunday . I am not sure where else to look for a possible ID. I thought the mounting holes on the head tube might point in some direction. The builder at least had a metal head badge , not just a decal. Since this bike is for the Bike Exchange to sell It might help to have a proper pedigree for it. To be honest though, most people who come to the shop looking for a bike are not collectors. Still, I intend to give this guy a nice paint job and dress it with some french hardware, and it should be a sweet ride when it is finished. In the meantime keep me in mind if you all have any further insights. Untill further info surfaces it shall be called a Mysterian .

Bad Lag

The bottom bracket ring and the hubs both look to be Phil Wood. That is "Phil" not "Paul".

Bad Lag

The headset looks to be by JHS. They use an o-ring to keep the bearing clean.