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Wheel building essentials?

Old 08-01-19, 01:58 PM
  #26  
WizardOfBoz
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam
What's the P&K Lie stand then, a Koenigsegg?
I'll bet just about every BF habitue saw this coming. I did. I knew that someone would point this out at the exact moment I hit "Post".

They're both around 2 grand (or about 6 or more times the cost of the very good Park stand). Compare:


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Old 08-01-19, 02:55 PM
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I made all my own wheel building tools. That includes a stand made from a fork, with straight edge indicators (like the ones in Roger Musson's book) and dial indicators, a fixture built into the edge of my workbench to measure dish, and a tensiometer that uses a dial indicator and a weight to bend the spoke. All my tools are as accurate as anything available commercially, and I did all for less than $20. It makes no sense to spend hundreds on wheel building tools when you can buy good wheels for less than the cost of parts, but if you are just in it for the satisfaction of the experience, then working out your own tools takes that experience to the next level. That said, I really like that P&K Lie stuff. Sadly, it was cut from the budget this year.

em
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Old 08-01-19, 03:25 PM
  #28  
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I build wheels with a spoke wrench, the wheel sitting in my lap. I jury-rigged a dish tool from a flat scrap of wood and 2 4-inch wood screws. I build only for myself, about 1 every 5 years. If I were doing it for a living, I'd get real tools.
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Old 08-01-19, 03:29 PM
  #29  
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That P&K stand sure looks sexy if you like that sort of retro industrial look, which I do. But I'm not convinced dial indicators have a place in wheel truing, or at least have a limited place. It seems like you would just drive yourself crazy trying to get the wheel to sub-millimeter perfection when it doesn't need to be, and you should really be focusing on other things like even spoke tension. Hopefully you can at least lock the indicators down so they don't move and you can use it like a conventional stand, especially at the beginning when the wheel is still rough.
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Old 08-02-19, 07:50 AM
  #30  
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I like using the dials. I find it easier because I can graph the indicator values and see the exact effect of every adjustment I make. It also tells me when to stop chasing small errors. As I get better at truing I rely on the dials less, but I still like to have a record of the wheel that I can use to prove that the wheel is stable. I also like to use a straight edge as an indicator, which I find easier to read than the calipers typically used. YMMV.

I worked out all my own tools and methods a long time ago because I was unhappy with the wheels I got from local builders. I became confident that I could build a better wheel than any of the shops around here. Thirty years ago that was a valuable skill, but now you can buy better wheels than you can build for less than the cost of the parts.

Ordinary dial indicators don't work very well when you have a large runout, but the ones on the P&K Lie stand are not linear, so the needle never needs to take extra laps around the face to follow large variations, but it's is still sensitive enough to find small errors. If I were doing quality control on mass produced wheels, I'd have a P&K Lie stand.

em
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Old 08-02-19, 12:27 PM
  #31  
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I just built my second wheel and used a fork in a vise as a truing stand. Normally would've used a stand from the tool library, but I kept missing out on it for the last 3 weeks. I used the side of an isopropyl alcohol bottle to gauge lateral trueness and a machinist square for radial. For tension I used a tuning app combined with muting the cross spoke using a rubberband and a binder clip. I like nice tools, but have very limited space and really only stuff that I'm going to be using all the time.
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Old 08-02-19, 12:36 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by eddy m
... It makes no sense to spend hundreds on wheel building tools when you can buy good wheels for less than the cost of parts, ...

em
+1 I sometimes buy wheels for the parts, knowing I wasn't riding the clunky (and probably mediocrely built) 14 ga spokes for long. If it's got rims I want and a hub I want at a decent price, I'll take it. Times get slow like dead of winter, pull out my DT Competion and Revolution spokes and make some really nice wheels out of 'em.
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Old 08-03-19, 09:10 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam
What's the P&K Lie stand then, a Koenigsegg?
A Bugatti Veron!
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Old 08-04-19, 07:14 PM
  #34  
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You guys shamed me into action!
Had some maple laying around the classroom so I glued it up:



You can see I started with the French curves.
Then I had to figure the actual gauge part, which I promptly messed up.
I'll fix it later:




Got a little carried away with the drillium.
Almost plugged the middle hole but I got it to work.
Kinda.
Some sand paper and some finish and some flames:




Saved me some fitty dollah!
Actually took me about three hours back forth from the hardware man place.
Should've just ordered the Park!
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Old 08-04-19, 09:25 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by jideta
Should've just ordered the Park!
Park's dish tool has neither the flame/fiddleback maple finish nor the Arts and Crafts hand-hammered copper position indicator.

Very nice!
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Old 08-05-19, 05:38 AM
  #36  
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thanks!
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Old 08-05-19, 06:45 AM
  #37  
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By the way, there's a cool trick to using a dishing tool in such a way that it will display an error reading that is actually 4 times greater than the real dish offset. This allows you to get the rim centered really precisely if you want. This article explains it pretty well:

https://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/ma...wheel-dishing/
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Old 08-07-19, 08:58 PM
  #38  
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Just in case anyone is curious about it:



Built like a freakin tank.
Could possibly disarm nuclear bombs with it if needed.
Conversion charts, instructions and USB with manual also.
Worth it?
After watching a bunch of video on wheel building, I'm finding it odd that while most talk about how important spoke tension is, very few of these folks use a gauge. I suppose after a while you can tell by hand or sound, but just for fun I would like to check to see how close I actually am. Or not.
I think a lesser device will suffice unless one is tensioning close to the upper limits of the rim.
It's like the difference between that $30 Snap On screwdriver and the one at the dollar store. They both do the same thing.
I have Snap On screwdrivers.
On the other hand, probably more tool than I'll ever need. The tension gauge I mean. The screwdrivers too.
Still, I enjoy using precision tools.
Might be worth it.
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Old 08-08-19, 02:20 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by jideta
Just in case anyone is curious about it:
(pic of Wheel Fanatyk spoke tensiometer)
That does look nice! I have a Park TM-1, which I think works fine, but I'd get the Fanatyk's tension meter if I could afford/justify it. (Or I'd make one if I had the time & tools).

Anyway, regarding "required tools", specifically dedicated dishing tools... Forget 'em. They're a useless waste of time and money. Seriously.

Dishing tools do NOTHING that a truing stand is not already doing just to true the wheel. And the truing stand is far more precise. ANY truing stand. From the P&K Lie, to using your bike frame and some zip ties.

The key is flipping the wheel in the stand - using only one side to true. It's the ONLY way to accurately true AND center the wheel. And it does them at the same time!

I use a homemade single-post truing stand, similar to Feedback Sports' "Pro Truing Stand". Having the wheel clamped on only one side, leaving the other open, makes it easier to flip, install, remove, etc.

Now, I don't mean anything against your very nice home made dishing tool (seriously, very nice!). But, if you have a half-decent truing stand, you're good to go!
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Old 08-08-19, 06:13 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Self Evident
That does look nice! I have a Park TM-1, which I think works fine, but I'd get the Fanatyk's tension meter if I could afford/justify it. (Or I'd make one if I had the time & tools).

Anyway, regarding "required tools", specifically dedicated dishing tools... Forget 'em. They're a useless waste of time and money. Seriously.

Dishing tools do NOTHING that a truing stand is not already doing just to true the wheel. And the truing stand is far more precise. ANY truing stand. From the P&K Lie, to using your bike frame and some zip ties.

The key is flipping the wheel in the stand - using only one side to true. It's the ONLY way to accurately true AND center the wheel. And it does them at the same time!

I use a homemade single-post truing stand, similar to Feedback Sports' "Pro Truing Stand". Having the wheel clamped on only one side, leaving the other open, makes it easier to flip, install, remove, etc.

Now, I don't mean anything against your very nice home made dishing tool (seriously, very nice!). But, if you have a half-decent truing stand, you're good to go!
A dish stick is easier to use than flipping the wheel, and unless you have a rigid stand with a good flat surface to measure from, it's more accurate too. Any small difference in the way the wheel sits in the stand's drop outs is multiplied at the rim. It doesn't make any sense to me to spend to get better stand just to avoid getting a dish gauge. I built a fixture to measure alignment into the side of my workbench from stuff I had lying around, and it's just as easy use as flipping the wheel.

I don't like the single side wheel stands either. I use a steel fork, and I can clamp the wheel in tight enough to force the rim sideways to de-tension the spokes. That makes it easier to tighten spokes without winding them up.

em
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Old 08-08-19, 06:29 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by jideta
Just in case anyone is curious about it:


Jobst Brandt made the design drawings for that public. By now, there should be some digital files to print one of those. That might bring the cost down to something I might pay.

I made a fixture to hold a dial indicator on the spoke, and I use a weight to bend the spoke. From that I can calculate the spoke tension so there's no need to calibrate a spring. It's easy enough to use if I leave the wheel in the workstand and just tip the whole thing over to hold the wheel horizontally.

My homebrew wheel shop has every tool I need, cost about $30, does everything you can do with Park tools even if it is sometimes a little harder or slower to use, but it's as accurate as anything you can buy.

em
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Old 08-08-19, 04:23 PM
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A dish stick is easier to use than flipping the wheel,
But you have to flip a wheel when using a dishing tool, so how is that easier?

And you have to take it out of the truing stand anyway just for that (the dishing tool). So, just flip it & put it back in the stand. Same effect, but more accurate, more precise, and way easier. The truing indicator is the only reference point you need, and it's immediately obvious which side's spokes need tightened/loosened.

It doesn't make any sense to me to spend to get better stand just to avoid getting a dish gauge.
Me neither, and no such suggestion was made. I said any stand - even your bike frame, is a better tool for centering a wheel than a dishing tool. You just have to flip the wheel in the stand, the same as with a dishing tool, to determine any dish.

I never use a dishing tool, and my wheels are perfectly centered. A dishing tool that just rests freely on an axle end just can not compete with a stand/frame/old fork that holds the wheel in place. I guess I just get confused as to how a seperate tool, that requires extra steps, is way less preceise, and is awkward to use, is somehow better. (But then again, I get easily confused easily about... wait, what where we talking about???

Maybe it just comes down to different strokes...

Anway, I'm no master wheel builder (or master of anything...) - I'm just a joe who likes to takes care of his own stuff as much as possible, and the stuff (wheels, anyway) of a few friends.
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Old 08-08-19, 05:26 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Metaluna
By the way, there's a cool trick to using a dishing tool in such a way that it will display an error reading that is actually 4 times greater than the real dish offset. This allows you to get the rim centered really precisely if you want. This article explains it pretty well:

https://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/ma...wheel-dishing/
I think time and effort better spent are placing a properly dished wheel in the frame where the built wheel will be used. To see where the frames imperfection pulls the wheel.
Most aren't 100% true.

That way, the wheel's dish can be "off centre" by just a little bit to the side which compensates the frame's imperfection.
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Old 08-09-19, 07:08 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Self Evident
But you have to flip a wheel when using a dishing tool, so how is that easier?

And you have to take it out of the truing stand anyway just for that (the dishing tool). So, just flip it & put it back in the stand. Same effect, but more accurate, more precise, and way easier. The truing indicator is the only reference point you need, and it's immediately obvious which side's spokes need tightened/loosened.

Me neither, and no such suggestion was made. I said any stand - even your bike frame, is a better tool for centering a wheel than a dishing tool. You just have to flip the wheel in the stand, the same as with a dishing tool, to determine any dish.
Flipping the wheel only works if you have a rigid stand with a rigid indicator. It doesn't work if you use free standing indicators like the ones Roger Musson recommends, or if you you dials the way I do, or if you use an inexpensive stand like a Minoura. A bike frame is rigid enough but most don't have any flat surface to measure as accurately as a dish stick. My home brew wheel stand + bench alignment fixture works better for me than a Park stand, or any other stand I've seen except a PKLie, which I was going to buy before the recent budget cuts around here.

In actual practice, a dish stick is more accurate than flipping the wheel, and a stick with an offset center anchor that could be used without taking the wheel out of the stand would be the easiest too.

em
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Old 08-09-19, 02:05 PM
  #45  
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Does this look correct?





So I'd be looking at about 48kgf?

Been reading that newer wheels should be about 100kgf?
This is older Campagnolo wheel so I was thinking of shooting for 75-80kgf...does that sound okay?

Apologies for all the questions; I haven't got my wheel building books yet and the internets are kinda obscure about spoke tension. Like some kinda voodoo or something!
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Old 08-09-19, 02:44 PM
  #46  
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Be certain about the spoke diameter

I'm not sure which kind of spoke you're measuring and that tension is potentially appropriate depending what wheel and side it's on. It also looks like you might be using a chart with the wrong spoke type or diameter. Does it say a diameter if 1 mm?? Don't worry about absolute tension at the moment, and see if all the spokes on a side are relatively the same.

Do you have an issue that you need to solve today or is the wheel performing adequately? I'd wait for your book unless it's urgent.
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Old 08-09-19, 03:12 PM
  #47  
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It's a CXray which the chart says to measure at .9mm.
Front wheel, and I got all the other spokes about the same.
Not in a rush.

More curious about why the stuff I've read about spoke tension so far have been vague at best.
High tension builds a stronger wheel, but too high is not good either.
Nothing really about low tension except it's bad for the spokes?
So far, I've seen nothing definitive about spoke tension.
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Old 08-09-19, 03:32 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by jideta
It's a CXray which the chart says to measure at .9mm.
Front wheel, and I got all the other spokes about the same.
Not in a rush.

More curious about why the stuff I've read about spoke tension so far have been vague at best.
High tension builds a stronger wheel, but too high is not good either.
Nothing really about low tension except it's bad for the spokes?
So far, I've seen nothing definitive about spoke tension.
GOOD! You've got it! Low tension is an issue when the wheel is in use. John Forester explains how a bicycle wheel works, and what happens to spokes under the hub. The general idea is that the required absolute spoke tension is the value where a spoke's tension is not released under use, since the goal is to minimize within reason the load/unload cycle and prevent a spoke from going completely slack, which is a Very Bad Thing for spoke fatigue and breakage. Spokes should remain in tension under load. The tension value required for that is as varied as the bikes and riders on those spokes, and the forces the spokes will experience.
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Old 08-09-19, 03:44 PM
  #49  
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Thanks!
That helps some.
So far I ordered the Brandt and Wright books; hope they help.
Thanks for the link!
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Old 08-17-19, 05:16 PM
  #50  
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Follow up:

I tested my skills re-lacing a Campag Mirage wheel changing the stock spokes out for CX-Rays.
Was going good until I bought these alloy nipples off of Ebay and they started to explode on me. Had to reuse the old nipples and alter some ENVE internal nipples to finish.
Wheel was so outta wack wasn't sure I was going to get it back into shape.
At least now I got me some lateral and radial truing skills.
This was a front wheel with radial spokes so it was fairly easy.
Except I bent and twisted two spokes; that is until I learned how to use the aero spoke holder thingy.

Here's what I got so far:



Still waiting on my literature but have been watching lots of video.
Tension is some mystery $hit IMO, still not sure what I'm doing. Mostly I'm checking my current wheels (both custom with CX-Rays) and matching the readings on the tension gauge.
The day of reckoning is near:



Got the hubs today, some used DT 350s 20f, 24r; everything else is due on Monday.
Kinlin XR22 rims just to see if I know what I'm doing.
Got the Hed Belgium + here waiting to see if I got any skills.
I should be good to go!

I gotta say, wheel building/truing is a test of one's patience.
I mean you gotta have loads of it or it gets frustrating pretty damn fast.
Lots of take a deep breath moments to think about what you are doing and where you're going.
Unlike other things I do (I am a ceramic/sculptor person, BFA in sculpture) where you have a goal or things are more abstract, this is more action/reaction type stuff and you have to sort of plot out exactly what you're doing.
Very tedious and a lot more cerebral that I thought.
Luckily, I'm into that kind of stuff.
Thanks for all the help.
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