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What do you think about the Park tool spoke tension site? / Evening spoke tensions?

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What do you think about the Park tool spoke tension site? / Evening spoke tensions?

Old 09-25-19, 05:00 PM
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bikerbobbbb
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What do you think about the Park tool spoke tension site? / Evening spoke tensions?

https://www.parktool.com/wta

I got my Park tool truing stand a few years ago. I got the extra gauges. Those actually do help. It really emphasizes the wobble compared to eyeballing it.

I ran this site though. It looks like it will even out the tension a bit if I can get the numbers. Has anyone used this or something like it before? I imagine useful, right? It sounds like it -- Even out the tension so one or a few aren't super tight while it's overall "even."

When I checked before though (not getting my exact measurements, just testing the site) I ran into an issue. I've got double butted spokes. 14 gauge on the ends. I think. I'm not sure how to input that in this site.

I figured if I used the gauges, why not try this and push the exactness that much more? I'm just one step away from this level of precision/control.
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Old 09-25-19, 05:24 PM
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I think those things are fairly accurate, but perfectly-even tension does not always result in a perfectly-even wheel. I have the Park mechanical spoke tension gauge, and got the spokes on one of my Mavic wheels all to the same tension. Wheel was fairly straight side to side, but the roundness of the wheel was off by about 1/4"! So it turns out THAT was why all the spokes near the rim joint had such high tension.
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Old 09-25-19, 05:27 PM
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I bought a spoke tension meter, used it a couple of times and think they suck , if i was to bring every spoke to read the same tension it would bring the wheel out of true.
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Old 09-25-19, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by le mans
I bought a spoke tension meter, used it a couple of times and think they suck , if i was to bring every spoke to read the same tension it would bring the wheel out of true.
How is that the fault of the gauge?
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Old 09-25-19, 07:31 PM
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Those Park gauges are good, but they do not build you a good wheel. They do help a lot in ensuring your tensions are within the limits of the spoke. Building a good wheel means finding the best balance between even tensions and a true wheel. Unless your rim is perfectly flat and round and your spokes uniform in thickness, getting both uniform tensions and perfect true will probably not be possible.

I build my wheels to have generally even tensions, be round and be side-to-side true; in that order. If I don't hit the first, it will be a short-lived wheel. The second - reasonably close to round, it won't be a pleasant ride. Perfectly true is what you do to impress people. Makes very little difference riding until contact with brake shoes happens.. To get the relative tensions even, I don't mess with a gauge. I can hear pitch and pinging spokes with my spoke wrench is so much faster! Periodically I put the gauge on several spokes to make sure the overall tension is what I want.

Ben
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Old 09-25-19, 08:13 PM
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The thing I find interesting about the Park Tools "Wheel Tension App" is that it provides a way to get all the spokes to within a certain range of "the same" tension. As others have pointed out, having the same tension all around does not guarantee a round, true wheel. But a wheel can be round and true with spoke tensions all over the map... with some too tight and others too loose, and all the complications that come with that. The WTA site takes a lot of the guess-work out of getting the tensions into the most optimal range.
My experience with this site amounts to three wheels (front and rear 700c for my road bike and a rear 20" for my folding commuter), so I'm no expert. But these three wheels have spoke tensions within 10% of the mean spoke tension and haven't required further attention. The app allows a check on the spoke tensions without even taking the wheel(s) off the bike, and gives a graphic display of any changes. I think it's pretty cool.
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Old 09-25-19, 09:25 PM
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re: the thread title...don't focus solely on evening spoke tensions, morning spoke tensions are equally important.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Old 09-25-19, 10:30 PM
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I like using my birthday tension gage, my finger nail. Oh and it's wireless receivers, my ears. No batteries needed

Really, just plucking spokes gets one real close to even tensions. My cynical side wonders why no one here has yet poo pooed this method. Andy
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Old 09-26-19, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
How is that the fault of the gauge?
A lot of builders say they can't live without them. I can! Might be alright to give a wheel a general check once the wheel is built ensuring it isn't too loose or too tight.
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Old 09-26-19, 02:35 AM
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Unless you have perfect recall, the app can be very useful at pinpointing lazy spokes and the spokes picking up the slack, as well as problem areas on rims that have a few miles on them.

The circular graph will exaggerate flat spots and deflected rims so you can focus on those spots for adjustment. Perfectly even tension is ideal, but unnecessary as long as the tension is close.

I true for round, then lateral, recheck round and then record spoke tension into the app. Usually i have mostly even tension with a few favorite spokes that i used to move the rim where i wanted it with neighboring spokes that have insufficient tension. Bring everything into the tolerances and flex the wheel to release any spoke windup.

Jobst Brandt, who wrote the book on bicycle wheels, was not a fan of plucking. He deemed it imprecise. That said, if you only have a thumbnail...
The mechanical park tool and knockoffs aren't that much better, except for measuring relative tension. I wouldn't (and don't) worry about the tension values the tool provides as long as I'm not using my shoulder to turn the nipple.
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Old 09-26-19, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by le mans
A lot of builders say they can't live without them. I can! Might be alright to give a wheel a general check once the wheel is built ensuring it isn't too loose or too tight.
The question was how was that the fault of the gauge?
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Old 09-26-19, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam
Jobst Brandt, who wrote the book on bicycle wheels, was not a fan of plucking. He deemed it imprecise. That said, if you only have a thumbnail...
You need to read the book again. He actually recommended using tone to balance spoke tensions, and stated that a tensiometer was an optional tool for confirming that the spokes were in the right ballpark, tension-wise. That said, he did recommend tensiometers if you're working with what we would call "modern" rims.
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Old 09-26-19, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott
You need to read the book again. He actually recommended using tone to balance spoke tensions, and stated that a tensiometer was an optional tool for confirming that the spokes were in the right ballpark, tension-wise. That said, he did recommend tensiometers if you're working with what we would call "modern" rims.
Do I? Read his archive post here.

Originally Posted by Jobst Brandt
We found that only non interleaved spoking worked and that even this was not easy to assess. We got a microphone to look at the spectrum and found that it was every bit a noisy as it sounded and that a spectrum analyzer could show you what a good musician might decipher... but then he mould have to compute and plot response curves based on spoke measurements of the specific wheel. A good tensiometer gets there more conveniently, repeatably, and accurately.
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Old 09-26-19, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam
Do I? Read his archive post here.
As with all things Jobst Brandt, we need to be clear about what we're discussing/arguing. JB did not feel that plucking spokes was a good way to determine their absolute tension (a tensiometer is better), but that it was perfectly valid for comparing spokes on a wheel. See pages 96 ("Throughout the following sections, tone is used to compare tension between spokes. This is a quick way to find spokes that should be tightened or loosened when making corrections... To get a clear tone from a spoke, pluck it near the nipple with a pick or fingernail so that the higher vibration modes are excited."), 104 ("Pluck the spokes as described in Tension by Tone (page 96). You can accurately match tension among spokes to by matching their tone."), and 118 ("It is not necessary to know the actual tension but only that the tension has reached the desired mark.")

Also, bear in mind that he could find fault with anything, so just because he complained about a tool or process doesn't mean that he didn't use it. He was skeptical of tensiometers, too, and would probably bemoan the current reliance on their numbers as truth.
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Old 09-26-19, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
The question was how was that the fault of the gauge?
If you can't understand gist of my comments, i can't help you, tension meters aren't a necessity, Imo..they suck
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Old 09-26-19, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by le mans
If you can't understand gist of my comments, i can't help you, tension meters aren't a necessity, Imo..they suck
Maybe if your comments applied to your quotes.
You can't even keep track of what you are saying.
IGNORE LIST for you because you are just wasting my time.
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Old 09-26-19, 10:31 AM
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I think some people just don't have a good ear. I can't sing, but someone singing flat or sharp drives me nuts. I get the tension even by plucking spokes before I go back and use a tension meter. I find that I'm pretty good at it. Sometimes I have to go back so I can hear the tone that I'm shooting for.

I started working on wheels before tension meters came into common usage, or maybe nobody had thought of it yet. In any event, I didn't think I needed one until I started using one. I think I build much better wheels now. Sure, there is some magic going from even tension to true, but it's not any harder then truing a bent up steel rim so the bike is rideable, which I have done thousands of times.
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Old 09-26-19, 10:31 AM
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You asked a foolish question to begin with. Kinda trollish.. Thanks for no longer talking to me.
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Old 09-26-19, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott
As with all things Jobst Brandt...bear in mind that he could find fault with anything.
And he was never shy about telling you about your faults, in minute detail.

Like the time he joined my So Long to Summer Sierra ride. He didn't follow my carefully chosen route from Jackson to Markleeville, then complained about all the high speed traffic on Highway 88 (which my route avoided).
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Old 09-26-19, 12:10 PM
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I'm not quite sure if the original question was specific to the web app, or to the tensiometer that you need to feed the app.

My experience is that the wheels I build stay round, true, and tensioned better if I use the tensiometer

Why I'd want to put those numbers in web app, I can't figure out. I could check three consecutive spokes (20, 21, 20) in the time it'd take me to check one spoke, put the tensiometer down, wipe my hand off, enter that number, pick up the tensiometer, and measure the next spoke. Assuming I could remember where I'd stopped and which direction I was going.
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Old 09-26-19, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by pdlamb
I'm not quite sure if the original question was specific to the web app, or to the tensiometer that you need to feed the app.

My experience is that the wheels I build stay round, true, and tensioned better if I use the tensiometer

Why I'd want to put those numbers in web app, I can't figure out. I could check three consecutive spokes (20, 21, 20) in the time it'd take me to check one spoke, put the tensiometer down, wipe my hand off, enter that number, pick up the tensiometer, and measure the next spoke. Assuming I could remember where I'd stopped and which direction I was going.
I usually keep one finger on the spoke I'm measuring to keep the wheel from rotating while I log numbers. as long as you pick a direction and stick with it, figuring out where you stopped is relatively simple, just count the spokes on that side.

You could write them down on paper, but the app does a tolerance check to note which spokes are within acceptable measurement and which aren't. As one of the posters here noted, fully matching tension on every spoke per side will result in a wobbly wheel, so knowing your measurement tolerance will let you true the wheel, then adjust tension to be acceptable while acceptably true. It makes for less guesswork later, and allows you to walk away from the job and come back later to adjust if you're not done.

I haven't done this, but by saving it, you can also keep a record of where you left the tension, and test it again after riding to see how things moved.
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Old 09-26-19, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by pdlamb
I'm not quite sure if the original question was specific to the web app, or to the tensiometer that you need to feed the app.

My experience is that the wheels I build stay round, true, and tensioned better if I use the tensiometer

Why I'd want to put those numbers in web app, I can't figure out. I could check three consecutive spokes (20, 21, 20) in the time it'd take me to check one spoke, put the tensiometer down, wipe my hand off, enter that number, pick up the tensiometer, and measure the next spoke. Assuming I could remember where I'd stopped and which direction I was going.
Totally agree-
I use a different method using alligator clips with different colors. (red, black, green & yellow)
I do a "quick go around" to get an approx. ave. tension per side.
Then I go around again and place a clip for those spokes that are over/under.
Typically Red for high & Black for low.
I'll use the other clips to add "additional value" to the 1st clip. How much depends on how far out of tension and if I'm running out of clips. It may be from 2-5.
THEN-
I mount the wheel in the truing stand and LOOK! Sometimes things stand out obviously enough that "adjusting" just 2-3 spokes can vastly improve the average tension without changing the true. That's a wonderful start!

This is for used wheels.

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Old 09-26-19, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
Totally agree-
I use a different method using alligator clips with different colors. (red, black, green & yellow)
I do a "quick go around" to get an approx. ave. tension per side.
Then I go around again and place a clip for those spokes that are over/under.
Typically Red for high & Black for low.
I'll use the other clips to add "additional value" to the 1st clip. How much depends on how far out of tension and if I'm running out of clips. It may be from 2-5.
THEN-
I mount the wheel in the truing stand and LOOK! Sometimes things stand out obviously enough that "adjusting" just 2-3 spokes can vastly improve the average tension without changing the true. That's a wonderful start!
That sounds like a whole lot more work than, tab, tap-tap...
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Old 09-27-19, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by well biked
re: the thread title...don't focus solely on evening spoke tensions, morning spoke tensions are equally important.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
You are a sick puppy!
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Old 09-27-19, 09:34 AM
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When I build a wheel I spend the early part of the process getting it radially true. As the tension goes up I begin to work on the lateral true. When the wheel is looking good I begin to build tension and stress relieving the spokes. Then I concentrate on even tension until the wheel is finished and I give it it's last stress relieving. I manage to keep both run-outs within .5mm.
I use a Wheelsmith tensiometer.

Last edited by davidad; 09-27-19 at 09:37 AM. Reason: omition
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