spelger

the cinder block i have laying around is 8" tall. that would give me a 21% grade. seems too steep for the alpe du zwift. if i recall the worst on that ride is about 10-11%?

spelger

not what? sorry, don't understand the question. a smart trainer can simulate various road qualities as well as wind. add those variables to the grade it simulates and it is pretty darn cool. not sure if zwift considers wind or road quality. i recall the road quality looks crappy when getting somewhere near teh italian villas but i don't recall the ride feeling any different. i recall seeing wind when heading up the radio tower but again don't recall feeling it. the 17% grade in there is enough to feel.

atwl77

Putting it in another way, when you are on a smart trainer, resistance changes depending on whether you are on a flat, or when climbing. When the resistance increases, your wheel tends to slow down to a halt much faster than when you are on a flat. On the flat - i.e. with less resistance - your wheel tends to spin more before slowing down and coming to a stop.

On a dumb trainer, none of that generally* applies and regardless of whether you're on the flat or climb, the resistance remains the same. So depending on how much manual resistance was initially applied to the trainer, you're either going to make riding the virtual flats feel like climbs, or make riding the virtual climbs feel like flats. I'll make another generalization and assume most people will setup their dumb trainer for the latter, which means they might get a little benefit of (micro coasting, for a lack of better term) when climbing.

Caveat then goes to your pedaling efficiency - the differences will be less (or none) with very good pedaling efficiency, and more apparent for people "pedaling squares" or similar; I guess it's similar to how some people can hold wattage better on climbs than on flats outside.

* - Well technically, you could turn the manual resistance dial of the dumb trainer yourself to simulate the gradient, but who does that?

atwl77

That's exactly it - if you've ridden on an exercise bike at the gym and tried it at different resistance settings, then that's how it feels regardless of whether you're on a smart trainer or dumb trainer.

The main difference is that the smart trainer can automatically change the resistance, whereas the dumb trainer doesn't. Which, depending on your riding and training objectives, may or may not matter. For me, it matters. If I see my virtual self going up a virtual hill on Zwift, I like the feel that it's getting tougher to pedal and either I have to mash up or shift to a lighter gear, just like how it works outside. If I'm doing a set of intervals and for the upcoming block I'm supposed to do X watts at Y cadence, I prefer not to mess with my gearing to figure out which combination gives me those results, and let the trainer automatically adjust the resistance for me.

Although once you go up in price and start getting into special/unique features, you start getting things like the Wahoo Climb, Wahoo Headwind fan, Tacx's road feel, and that Zwift steering device thingy whose name I can't remember at the moment, all which are "quality of life" type of improvements which to some, are great additions and to others, are completely useless gadgets.

Darth Lefty 

I'm thinking that shifting is what makes the difference, because of the flywheel. Power at low wheel RPM and high resistance is going to feel different than the same power at high RPM and lower resistance. That might be enough to simulate drag, or at least better than nothing. It also answers the question of, why even shift or have a smart trainer if you're just going to land at 200W at 90 cadence? It's still not going to give you that kick-back feeling you get in granny gear, like if you let go it's going to unwind.

I'm still just talking out my butt and wife won't be drawn about what she bought. I think she's afraid I'll look at the price and judge it prematurely. We might be in that "first season I tried..." situation

surak

At steady state, one can approximate grades and resistance with a dumb trainer by shifting. Where a smart trainer provides a noticeable difference is when conditions vary, so in Zwift that would either be over uneven terrain and when experiencing draft effect.

caloso

No, not exactly. A fluid trainer increases resistance the faster the drum turns. It gives a pretty good approximation of riding on flat ground outside. For Zwift, you can increase resistance at a given cadence by shifting into a bigger gear, not turning the dial on the trainer.
https://www.kurtkinetic.com/fluid-resistance

Ed Wiser

A smart trainer will give you a tough work out as you are not in control of the resistance. The app you are using does that. I bought a new smart trainer this year and it is way hardier than a non smart trainer. While I have Zwift it is not the only indoor training app. As the one spending a.lot of ad money getting people to sign up. The streets are getting crowded to the point it is not fun watching all the people all over the road.

Thomas15

If you really think about it, is having as close to an exact duplicate of IRL conditions (as provided by a high end smart trainer) as possible in a platform such as Zwift really all that important?

From the perspective of Zwift racing the rules generally require that users use a trainer that reports in zPower. Here is a quote from an article in Zwiftinsider:

1. zPower Classic Trainer and speed sensor: Zwift has calculated a specific “power curve with acceleration” for a very short list of higher-end classic trainers. Capped at 1200 watts, as long as your trainer is set up properly (see below) your numbers should be fairly accurate even when changing speeds. (While the term “zPower” is often used by Zwifters to refer to all virtual power numbers, only a small set of trainers use zPower.) (my add: a number of people who have an opinion on the topic of using dumb trainers vs smart trainers, including some that have used both, do not understand the difference between zPower and vPower).

https://zwiftinsider.com/virtual-power/

See the link above for the complete discussion. There is also a link in that article to another article by Zwift with a list of trainers that are capable of zPower and vPower. But all of this pertains to Zwifters that are interested in racing not general fitness riding or social rides.

When I pair up my Kinetic trainer with InRide to Zwift, I get connected to a "Power Source" via ANT+ not a "Speed Sensor". In my mind this indicates that Zwift will report my data in zpower, this allows me to race in zwift against those using smart trainers. Oddly, sometimes while paring in Zwift, my trainer reports to Zwift that I have a "controllable" trainer. Still, my data in Zwift (and on Zwift Power) shows up in zPower. That is because i'm using one of the supported dumb trainers mentioned in the above articles. I see zwifters flying up the Alpe in zpower all the time. They are either very good pro level cyclists or cheating. I have concluded that many cheaters are cheating with smart trainers because they are showing zPower data reporting.

OK my point is not about cheating or racing issues rather it is about the overall virtual experience. Is it really necessary for most of us to recreate as close as possible the IRL experience on our trainers? I would say no, it isn't. There is the risk that a zwift user may get smacked upside the head, living with delusions thinking that because they have achieved a certain level of competence on the zwift platform that automatically they will be an tearing up the road in club rides. As there is more to riding IRL this isn't easy to do. Maybe there should be a law passed by congress mandating that all zwift users using a dumb trainer should have a caution label attached to their trainer warning that their zwift performance may not match their IRL performance. Perhaps all trainers should have that label.

But still, I can point to my own case, using a supported dumb trainer last winter, no real riding outside for 6 months, all on zwift. In fall of 2019 I was riding just barely better than rank beginner. Winter comes, 3000 miles on a dumb trainer via zwift. Then came the spring 2020 and now I'm doing fast C class club rides and some hilly B rides, and keeping up with the big dogs. Not beating the big dogs but keeping up with them.

So the question for me is would having a smart trainer make me a better rider if I spend half of the year training inside?

Again, if it were not for the fact I already had my dumb trainer (Kinetic RM with InRide) then I would advise myself to get a smart trainer. At $500 I would get the Kickr Snap. Or if you can get a low cost used dumb trainer that is capable of zpower then ok. I have about $150 total invested in my trainer. I have tossed around the question in my head regarding what I have vs. the advantages of upgrading and as much as it appeals to my sense of self worth, the advantages of smart vs dumb are not worth it to me as long as my dumb trainer is ticking along. I'm more interested in watts per kg not in bragging rights.

We all have our priorities. We all have our budget caps. I have a friend that thinks I'm crazy because I put $1000 worth of power meter on my 15 year old AL road bike that I paid $300 for . He thinks I should have a $3000 road bike. This is the same individual that has a $3000+ CF elec shifting road bike on the least expensive smart trainer available.

At the end of the ride up the Alpe, I need to generate the same amount of watts (in zPower) as any smart trainer rider to make it to the top. A typical fun ride for me IRL is 25 miles with 3000 feet of ascent. I live in the mountains. I can do that kind of riding at age 62 with just two years of riding experience because (not in spite of the fact that) I spent all of last winter riding riding riding and climbing climbing climbing on Zwift using a supported zPower dumb dumb dumb trainer.

On Edit: personally I'm not smart enough to cheat my power numbers in Zwift using a dumb trainer. What I report to zwiftpower and Strava is what my trainer reports based on my actual (and honest) performance.

On Edit Edit: This discussion regarding using Zwift with dumb trainers with people, nice as they are, who do not understand the difference between using a zwift supported dumb trainer and an unsupported dumb trainer is getting tiresome.

Marcus_Ti

People used to use dumb trainers and rollers all winter long before services like Zwift were invented. But it was torture, and very hard to stick to a regimen because it simply wasn't fun....rather it was more work not even paid, after you got off work.

There's what you 'need' then there's what motivates you to actually do the workout. For some people it is a zoot bike; for others it is having a smart trainer. Either way, it gets them working on physical fitness.

surak

Yes if your goal is to get better at riding outside in similar conditions and/or want the most realism.

And you have zPower completely confused with zwiftpower.com - they are totally different and opposing concepts. Fundamentally, virtual power is unreliable and automatically disqualifies you from official race results that zwiftpower.com produces.

Thomas15

No surak, I do not have zPower confused with zwiftpower (.com).

I have my results posted on zwiftpower.com and know exactly what it is and what it does.

Nice try though.

surak

Except you wrote this:

Which is wrong. zPower is virtual power. From https://zwiftpower.com/#t_faq: Edit: you also are mistaken about smart trainers reporting zPower. zPower is only for dumb trainers. Smart trainers report actual power, with high-end models being 1-3% accurate. Your inRide reports itself as a power source, which is not what zPower is. It is no different from someone using a powermeter. If you are still using zPower, then you aren't actually using the inRide sensor to report power. Here's an article to help you understand what it is: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2012/12/kinetic-inride-bluetooth-smart-power-meter-accessory-in-depth-review.html

Thomas15

vPower is vPower

zPower is zPower

zwiftpower.is zwiftpower and until a few weeks ago, zwiftpower was not even owned by Zwift.

surak

zPower is a subset of virtual power using an estimated power curve based on reported speed. zPower::virtual power::::square::rectangle

Darth Lefty 

OP, here. I just want to ride my bike in the MMO with my wife. We both have bum tickers and surging waistlines, we are not going to be anywhere near your leaderboards.

Ed Wiser

Just get a spin bike and watch tv while you ride. Start out simple and maybe in a few years you may want to get better in shape.

surak

Even if you won't be racing, trainer accuracy is going to affect your experience. The reason dumb trainers and virtual power are problematic is because they produce unrealistic speeds and give people unrealistic expectations of their own fitness, as evidenced by the disappointment people encounter when going from virtual power to a smart trainer or powermeter.

If you really are only going to care that your avatar moves when you pedal and have no interest in knowing how your fitness in-game would translate outside, then any trainer with a speed sensor is fine. Just know that some of the gamified aspects of Zwift, such as hitting target watts or climbing Alpe du Zwift in under an hour, will be cheapened by inaccurate power estimation.

burnthesheep

Given the bikes you own, I would go with a wheel-on smart trainer. I would maybe start easy with an affordable Tacx wheel on smart trainer on sale. You don't need the massive hill % grade of the expensive smart trainers given what you've described. I'm only 157lbs and 16% in Zwift on my 39t inner ring is a leg breaker! So if you don't need that, the Tacx will be fine.

So, on sale that's like $350.

Then, I'd add in some kind of tray or computer holder. I've done the whole big screen TV thing but got tired of lugging the trainer out and setting it up. It now stays in a corner setup and ready. I highly recommend leaving it setup somewhere to eliminate any distraction to working out. Doesn't need to be a name brand expensive tray, just something you can bring up to the handlebars and hit the directional turns on Zwift if you want.

OR, buy a handlebar phone mount and run the companion app on it and use that to direct your rides.

I never ran a trainer tire, just use an old tired road tire or whatever you have that's no longer good.

You'll need a rubber sweat mat of some kind. Something easily wipeable. I also recommend a little fabric "bike bra". It catches sweat from going in the headset or into the crank area.

Let's see....uhmm....I'd toss in a cadence sensor if you don't own one. It will then show if your rider is spinning or standing to climb.

That'll get you started. Things will come up where you're like "that may be nice", just buy it when you need it.

Darth Lefty 

I've got an enlarged heart and had open heart surgery February 2019. I'm a lot better than I was but I'm not quick, and how good I feel is really inconsistent. So racing successfully is pretty much out of the question. That doesn't mean I don't want to measure what I'm doing. I do. But I don't think I'm going to get up to a situation where it's relevant to compare it to other people's for bragging rights, and so if things are +-5% and not +-1%, it's probably not important.

surak

Sure, even 10% accuracy would be fine for you. The problem with virtual power is that some people's estimates are off by 100%. We're talking amateurs doing World Tour pro 6+W/kg for an hour.

Darth Lefty 

One of the trainers arrived. It's a Saris Mag+ with a five-position resistance shifter. By all appearances it's smart as a sack of hammers. The box nevertheless says it's compatible with all the apps, so I find it in the list of "Virtual Power Classic" trainers, and I need to buy a BT speed sensor for the bike.

It seems like my brand new single speed is DQ'd. The skewer fits inside the thru-axle but I doubt that's really intended, and it's not long enough.

So, I am up/down to the following:Just bought/downloadedNext up?Need to find out

Danhedonia

You need a smart trainer. I've had both - there's no comparison. The Saris is a new toy and will satisfy you for a few months, but a) you're going to wind up frustrated if you want to race; and b) you'll wind up dead-ending in your usage. Currently the phrase 'smart trainer' is used to refer to trainers that can be controlled by the software, not 'trainers that can send info TO the trainer.' There's a great big difference, not only in user experience but in how Zwift will accept your information.

For example, if you want to race, you'll minimally have to feed HR info to have your results verified (and thus the data kept on Zwift) by Zwiftpower.

I'd suggest reading DC Rainmaker's pieces on these topics; he is an acknowledged authority, and has great insights into this.

If you run Zwift on the laptop, feeding video to the TV, you'll be fine. The only extra device you'll need is a HR monitor, and perhaps an ANT+ dongle. However, you're going to have to negotiate the limitations of BLE (bluetooth) connections. They run on a frequency similar to standard WiFi (2.4 GHz) so it's important to set up a 5G SSID for the laptop, and turn off the phone's bluetoothwhile you're Zwifting. Otherwise there are a lot of competing signals and it's frustrating.

caloso

I'm cheap. Instead of buying a bike bra, I just use a crappy old towel. Wrap one end snugly to the top tube and secure it with some tape. Drape the loose end over the headset and bars. I also don't bother with a trainer tire. Every roadie I know has at least one old tire that's getting too unreliable for winter roads, but is fine for a trainer. Run it till the cords show.

spelger

While i agree with much of what you wrote i do not agree with the disabling of bluetooth on the phone. not only is that how the companion app connects to your devices the companion app provides the rest of the UI that zwift "forogt" to put into the regular app we all look at while zwifting. in my garage setup i am running a PC behind me using bluetooth to a keyboard infront of me, a BLE speaker in front of me, ant dongle picking up the trainer, hrm, and cadence. laptop is running wireless to the router in house practically inline with the rest of all of that. it can be done. things to look out for when it comes to crappy signal quaility are leaky microwave ovens. ours was leaking when i noticed that it severely interfered with some hand held wireless gadgets. once replaced those were fine.