Balo

Hi,

Have bought a WhiteBikes ENERGY BOOST HD 18 to commute about 11 miles a day 4 days a week, it looks like this :

Im however not sure that this is really the best e-bike for me? What happens if the motor is malfunction after 1 year(warrenty)? From what I understand it is usually just replaced and a new would cost half the bike. It also have to be the exact same motor. If I bought a ebike with a motor in the rear wheel, then it would probably be easier to replace, even with other brand?

Also, I have read that the chain and gears will wear more with a mid drive?

What do you think about middrives? Will they last?

unterhausen

I think a mid drive is the way to go. I wanted to convert a bike using STEPS, but it's really expensive. I am thinking about getting the bafang ultimate, but I'm holding off just because I'm not sure I'll use it.

How much is that bike?

There are different versions of that mid drive unit, some have metal gears. i assume the ones on a stock bike will not

CliffordK

You already have the bike, so you might as well ride it into the ground, then decide what you need for the next one. It is quite possible there will be some evolution in E-Bikes over the next decade or so, and you may choose to upgrade later.

Proprietary parts is a complaint about any bicycle/vehicle, so you will be stuck with sourcing replacement parts from the manufacturer (battery, motor, electronics). Although, in theory, a battery can be rebuilt if it fails.

A good electric motor should last essentially forever. Perhaps depending on whether it uses brushes, or is brushless.

One of the issues of the mid/crank drive is they put extra force on the chain, and if the chain fails, the bike is stopped beside the road until the chain is fixed. In theory, a front or rear hub drive could be ridden completely without a chain.

unterhausen

I think the weak point of mid drive is the gearbox. I expect that you will be able to get parts for the gearbox, but it might not be worth it.

CliffordK

I suppose it would have some type of gear reduction to match crank speeds. Perhaps a fixed gear reduction?

If a car is designed to do hundreds of thousands of miles, then why should a bicycle be expected to wear out in say 20,000 miles? 50,000 miles?

If done right, it would have a sealed unit with an oil bath. Bearings?

I would hope it could last a good long time, perhaps with periodic maintenance.

I suppose one advantage of the mid-drive is that it allows a choice of rearends. Our co-op is doing well with a Nuvinci hub with their E-Cargo bike. They had issues with throwing chains before adopting the Nuvinci.

2old

Theoretically, a shop can remove the motor and have it repaired by the manufacturer, and batteries can be replaced with new ones from the manufacturer (at least that's how it works with my local e-bike shops). All post-warranty repairs are expensive. I would ride the hell out of it the first year as suggested above and, if possible, keep the battery charged between 10% and 90% of max, or better yet 20% and 80% as I do with mine).

unterhausen

ebikes are even more price sensitive than cars, if that's possible. Lots of plastic gears. Plastic is quieter too. Someone posted pics of the inside of a gearbox here recently asking for help. It was full of grease. Grease lasts a long time, but at some point it's going to fail and most of these things are not easily serviceable.

It's definitely a fixed gear ratio. Brushless motors have good torque characteristics over their rpm range, so that makes sense.

When I was looking before the advent of pedal assist, most of the Chinese mid drives had a freewheel at the crank. Not sure if the pedal assist ones do. The freewheel was an issue.

Balo

The bike cost about 1400 EUR- If I do not expect it to last more then 3 years, then I could choose a bike for 1/3 of the price. It will of course not have the mid-driver but still work for commuting.

How do I know if its a plastic or metall gear in the motor?

fietsbob

disc pads need replacement , drum brake shoes on my bike don't, ...not in over 30 years..

that is a maintenance reduction, right?


DIY research? what brand is it? got your service manual?

it a Shimano Steps or Bosch?



...

Balo

I did not got any service manual but it says Bafang M400 on the case : imgur.com/da4BoEO.jpg

Havent found any pictures or info about its internal yet.

CliffordK

In many cases, one never knows the weak part of a system until it actually breaks.

Of course, not all metal is the same either. Hardened steel, Brass/Bronze, Aluminum, Pot Metal? Etc.

One thing you might do is ask the vendor for an electronic version of the service manual and parts diagram. Verify that they actually have the infrastructure in place to purchase the replacement parts you need.

Does your vendor have a service department?

Buy a direct import bike off of E-Bay, and in 2 years when you need support, it may be nowhere to be found.

So, if you have a local vendor, make sure they have the inventory and motivation to actually provide the future support that you need.

There are lots of plastic gears being used in low torque applications everywhere. Plastic can have some advantages over steel by being less harsh, or perhaps even disintegrating before something worse is broken. I'm trying to think of where plastic gears or sprockets are used in high torque applications, and am at a bit of a loss. There is, of course, the Gates belt drive, although a little different (and often considered better than steel for certain applications).

CliffordK

Here is the company:
https://www.bafang-e.com/en/drive-sy...ve-system.html

Here is the dealer manual, I think. I'm not certain of the model.
https://www.voltbike.ca/Manuals/max_drive_manual.pdf

Parts list begins on page 56, but doesn't include internal parts. Nor do I see any notes on service and lubing.

Anyway, I'd start at your vendor and see what they have for longterm support.

2old

AFAIK, this is the new (to our area) Bafang integrated, lower power (the Ultra is the higher power system) motor. My BBS02 has non-metal gears, as do many brushless motors, and has performed perfectly for almost three years. Non-metallic gears are used because they're quieter than metal ones.

Balo

Tried a couple of other bikes today, all with backmotor and none of them came even close to the feel that this WhiteBike delivers with midmotor. The Crescent Elis motor did have some kick to it but the 24 grears seems complicated and it was not vary comfortable to ride.

A bike with middrive and internal back gears would be great!

Its not possible to set a internal geared wheel on this bike I bought according to the shop.

fietsbob

My LBS owner has done a lot of mid drive conversions, my thought: Bafang just makes the motor itself..

after you buy the bike then you ask questions?

NuVinci is making a continuously variable ratio hub for E bikes,

not seen one in person , though..



..

CliffordK

They do, but it appears as if they also require a special custom bottom bracket shell... which would limit the replacement choice. It is hard to tell, the OP also mentioned test riding some other new bikes.

But, at this point, if the bike has been purchased, I'd just ride it until any issues pop up, rather than trying to predict what could possibly go wrong.As mentioned a few times, the Eugene Center for Appropriate Transport uses a Nuvinci hub (not sure of the model) with their tri-hauler. Single front wheel drive. No doubt the trihauler takes a beating. I think they had some issues with previous hubs, but the Nuvinci is holding up well. Using the crank motor (mid-drive), all the power goes through the chain and hub, but it also allows optimizing power for a narrow band of what humans find easiest for cadence.

I'm surprised the OP's bike won't support an internal gear hub, unless widths are an issue, or perhaps, one won't be able to achieve an optimal chain line, with the rear sprocket being somewhat outboard of the crankset (no different from one's high gear being offset somewhat).

Oh... chain tension. Not insurmountable though.

unterhausen

all the integrated mid-drive have their own proprietary frame interface. If you look at the bafang ultra on luna cycles website, they warn about it not fitting on a bike with a different bafang mid drive. I was trying to get a drawing of them because I wanted to adapt a Shimano shell, but couldn't find one. They sell a shell, but it's aluminum and I want steel. Same sad story with Shimano, the different mid drive units have different shells.

Balo

Yes, I have bought a bike but is still asking questions. There is something called return policy which is very generous in stores where I live, why not use it If I need it? This of course as long as the product is in mint condition I can agree that the buy was a bit hastily but if there is a clearance sale that is about to end, what do to?

Most products have weaknesses, some more then others. By asking people that have more knowelege and experience(like you I assum) you can awoid a lot of hassle and that is what Im trying to do.

At this point it feels like I have bought the right bike, it offers the best feel(to me) among the tested and the component seemse to be well known and not to hard to find replacements for. It might be a bit over my initial buddget but I would not get a cheaper bike with a midmotor.

The midmotor might have special requirements on the frame but if I understand correcet this specific motor is fairly common? So finding a replacement after 2-3 years might be possible compare to other less known variants. But Yes a backdriven or frontdriven motor will probably be alot easier to replace.

I donīt like buying expensive stuff(even if it is considered as a budget selection within the segment) that I expect to just throw away after 2-3 years. So this is why Im trying to find a bike where I replace components and at the same time gives me a "approved comfort".

In a E-bike tha batteri would be a concern but in this case the store have sold the same looking batteri for many years. If it would not be available when I need it I could always switch cells my self.

unterhausen

I really doubt you will have problems that would require a replacement before 5-10 years. Bafang seems to have the best reputation of the Chinese brands. Nobody knows if they will still offer the same interface then though.

2old

I agree with the above. Bafang sells 850,000 motors per year. They must know something.

Nelson37

Mid-drives have increased chain and gear cluster wear. You bought one that also requires a PROPIETARY bottom bracket. Note that word in caps. For future compatibility and replacement cost issues, avoid Everything and Anything PROPIETARY.

Mid-drive advantage is they are good for hills. Do you have lots of hills? I don't, and also am not mechanically inclined, low-maintenance a priority, also reliability, so I did not buy a mid-drive.

Also, that battery mount is unacceptable in my rainy climate.

You have mentioned several times how it "feels good". Does it also taste good, and smell good? What are your points of comparison?

I did not need a bike that feels good, or looks, tastes, or smells good, either. I needed one that would get me to work, reliably. Over 3 and 1/2 years and 12,000 miles, zero problems. Zero failures. Zero maintenance. Zero parts replacement. I did not buy the latest fad, nor the first thing I tripped over that was on sale, nor whoever had the slickest ad campaign.

I have replaced brake pads, tires, and did replace the seat with a free one from an old Huffy that was more comfortable.

Bafang is good quality and should last a while, but just a bit of research of history in the mid-drive market would reveal that the likelihood of that particular PROPIETARY model being still in production 2, 3, or 5 years from now is pretty low.

The plug and play hub motor I bought is still in production with no changes.

unterhausen

my guess is that if that motor makes it through the first year it will be fine in 10 years or even longer. It's true that a hub is more easily replaceable, and so are retrofit mid-motor designs that mount in a standard bottom bracket shell. But it's also possible that Bafang will still have a mid motor that fits in this same mounting system. There isn't a good reason why the mountings are all proprietary. I would be more worried about a Panasonic, Shimano and to a lesser extent Bosch not being replaceable. I'm guessing that the Bafang ultra can fairly easily be made to fit in the Shimano 8000 mount, just as one example. So far, that's my plan for a frame conversion.

Of course, this is all speculation. It's also possible at the end of life of this system, there will be better systems available and the OP will want to upgrade

2old

I have three Bafang BBS02 systems that my wife and I use off road in pretty rugged terrain. The first kit is three years old and the other two, procured at Luna Cycle and powered by Luna's 52V batteries are about two years old. None has exhibited any problems, and all operate as quietly now as when new. I don't think you'll have any issues for awhile.