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Why 'lace' crossing spokes?

Old 02-26-17, 07:37 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by joejack951
Interesting. So your feeling/experience is that non-interlaced spokes yield a stiffer wheel while interlacing makes the wheel more resilient. Other seem to claim that interlacing stiffens the wheel. I'm planted firmly in the middle thinking it makes no difference at all.

Any feeling about the effects of interlacing on j-bend spoke life?
First of all consider that any differences are going to be small. BITD when we were using large and small flange hubs there would be endless debates about wheels stiffness, and also about 3x vs 4x. Some rider swore they could feel the difference, and while I believed there were differences I never felt they were enough to be felt except maybe at the extremes.

Also, consider that there's lots of apples vs. oranges going on, because we were using 15g spokes in the era of LF hubs, vs. 14g as we moved to SF hubs.

Likewise, it's hard to make direct comparisons about weaving because most of us wove when we could, and when we didn't we were also building 1 or 2x vs 3 or 4x.

On the track, I build reduced crosses in the front because that does improve lateral stiffness, and couldn't weave those even if I wanted. I don't weave the rears, and riders have reported that they felt more snappy when they broke into a sprint. I don't know if they really felt anything, or if it was some kind of Placebo Effect, but it didn't matter because the Placebo Effect is a real thing and if a rider thought it was faster it would be. (or at least I wouldn't be blamed if it weren't).

So, all I'll argue seriously is that weaving improves the fatigue life of wheels, and leave folks to believe what they will about not weaving. (BTW- I never argue this points unless asked)
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Old 02-26-17, 08:17 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
Excellent! I really admire the curiosity that led you to experiment like this. We need more of this sort of thing to evaluate some of the old "standards".

That said, I don't think you can evaluate the interaction between spokes on the bench (without sophisticated equipment). Interlacing has to be evaluated considering the dynamic loading and unloading of spokes on the road, where the wheel is subjected to a variety of forces.

Assuming a configuration where interlacing is easy, are there any disadvantages to interlacing spokes? The potential for noise and wear come to mind (though I have never had an issue with either).

Great discussion!
A few comments.

1. Glad you find this discussion interesting.

2. My 'dynamic' loading was fully tensioning a spoke from 0 to 110 kgf while interlaced with an already tensioned spoke. Not a perfect scenario but I really expected more interaction than the tiny bit I saw. I'd love to see a dynamic test illustrating the interactions. I'd settle for a simulation

3. I can't say that there are any disadvantages having never had noise or wear issues even with black spokes. I went back and interlaced my spokes after realizing my 'mistake' after all.
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Old 02-27-17, 09:28 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Jiggle
I did some experimentation on this with a 24h rear wheel. Non interlaced, the nds spokes on the outside of the flange had a lower tension than the ones coming from the inside of the flange. Interlacing them, the tensions evened out to the average of the high and low. Because the tension on the nds is low anyway, I chose to interlace to reduce the risk of the lower tensioned spokes coming loose.
It sounds like you could have achieved the same thing simply by loosening every other spoke a bit and tightening every other spoke a bit. I am surprised that it wasn't the inside (heads out) spokes that were a little looser as those have a shorter run to the rim than the outside (heads in) spokes.
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Old 02-27-17, 09:31 AM
  #29  
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joejack, the more the bracing angle, the less tension required to pull the rim one way or another. Because on a 24 hole wheel the spokes are far apart relative to a 32 hole wheel, I couldn't maintain trueness by doing what you describe. Maybe if I had a stiffer rim.
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Old 02-27-17, 09:36 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
First of all consider that any differences are going to be small. BITD when we were using large and small flange hubs there would be endless debates about wheels stiffness, and also about 3x vs 4x. Some rider swore they could feel the difference, and while I believed there were differences I never felt they were enough to be felt except maybe at the extremes.

Also, consider that there's lots of apples vs. oranges going on, because we were using 15g spokes in the era of LF hubs, vs. 14g as we moved to SF hubs.
Thanks for clarifying. So even for someone who has likely built at least an order of magnitude more wheels than me it still comes down to 'feeling' as to whether interlaced spokes makes a difference in stiffness.

Originally Posted by FBinNY
Likewise, it's hard to make direct comparisons about weaving because most of us wove when we could, and when we didn't we were also building 1 or 2x vs 3 or 4x.
Can you give a specific example of when you wouldn't interlace spokes? On my 2X wheels I just finished, there was ~3mm between the spokes when fully tensioned and prior to interlacing. I was hesitant to interlace for that reason thinking the resultant deflection would be too extreme. I changed my mind after seeing some AX Lightness wheels that looked far worse (in terms of deflected spokes) than mine do now with interlacing.

Originally Posted by FBinNY
On the track, I build reduced crosses in the front because that does improve lateral stiffness, and couldn't weave those even if I wanted. I don't weave the rears, and riders have reported that they felt more snappy when they broke into a sprint. I don't know if they really felt anything, or if it was some kind of Placebo Effect, but it didn't matter because the Placebo Effect is a real thing and if a rider thought it was faster it would be. (or at least I wouldn't be blamed if it weren't).
I firmly believe in the Placebo Effect. The whole nutritional supplement industry is built upon it as well

Originally Posted by FBinNY
So, all I'll argue seriously is that weaving improves the fatigue life of wheels, and leave folks to believe what they will about not weaving. (BTW- I never argue this points unless asked)
Now we're getting somewhere. Why do you believe this? And please, don't take this as me arguing anything. I truly want to learn here. I'm hoping to even get a chance to test some of these beliefs just to more firmly prove (or disprove) them to myself. I have a few non-urgent wheel (re)builds to do that I can mess around with and hopefully my curiosity wins out over my desire to complete them 'correctly.'
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Old 02-27-17, 09:39 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Jiggle
joejack, the more the bracing angle, the less tension required to pull the rim one way or another. Because on a 24 hole wheel the spokes are far apart relative to a 32 hole wheel, I couldn't maintain trueness by doing what you describe. Maybe if I had a stiffer rim.
I'll take your word for it. The front wheel I just built was 24 spokes and 2X cross and I didn't have truing and tension issues with no interlacing. I am also using a 40mm deep, 27mm wide carbon rim which might explain that
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Old 02-27-17, 09:41 AM
  #32  
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The main reason to weave, imo, is the same reason you wear a helmet every time, no matter how short the ride. You want the busybodies to leave you alone.
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Old 02-27-17, 09:48 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Jiggle
joejack, the more the bracing angle, the less tension required to pull the rim one way or another. Because on a 24 hole wheel the spokes are far apart relative to a 32 hole wheel, I couldn't maintain trueness by doing what you describe. Maybe if I had a stiffer rim.
Look at this from the point of view of the hub.

The sum of all the tensions of the pulling spokes has to equal the sum of all the "pushing" spokes. Otherwise the hub would have a net torque and twist slightly to achieve equilibrium.

Unbalanced tension between pulling and pushing spokes can only exist if each flange has a net torque in the opposite direction.

Since you describe all the heads-in spokes having lower tension, you have an impossible situation.

UNLESS the wheel is built with pulling spokes heads in on one flange, and out on the other, or as I prefer to call it, not mirrored.

Otherwise, you must be making some kind of mistake in your measurements.
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Old 02-27-17, 09:51 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by joejack951
So here's the interesting thing I learned about the interaction of laced spokes. My wheels were tensioned to 110 kgf max (less on front disc side and rear non-drive side) without interlacing the spokes. I completely de-tensioned every other spoke one at a time, interlaced the spokes, and re-tensioned to the original tension before moving on to the next. I started off by not only de-tensioning the spoke I planned to completely loosen but also by removing a full turn of tension from the spoke with which it would be interlaced under the assumption that that spoke would gain significant tension with the act of interlacing.

I decided it was worth seeing what might happen if I didn't do this in order to speed up the process. As it turned out, the untouched spoke remained at virtually the same tension (undetectable in most cases and less than 5% where it did show on my TM-1) as it started at after interlacing and bringing the reinstalled spoke back to its original tension. What this says to me is that there is little interaction between spokes, or at least such a small amount that I wouldn't expect any great benefit along those lines for interlacing unless some spokes were nearly completely loosing tension.

If you did all this on your truing stand, it doesn't reflect what happens on the road. Even a poorly built wheel will last forever if you never ride it. Start putting repetitive stress on the rim, loading and unloading each spoke once per revolution, and you'll probably see things change.
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Old 02-27-17, 09:56 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Jiggle
The main reason to weave, imo, is the same reason you wear a helmet every time, no matter how short the ride. You want the busybodies to leave you alone.
If you've ever seen me post about helmets you'll know that I am fairly good at ignoring the busybodies
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Old 02-27-17, 09:59 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by pdlamb
If you did all this on your truing stand, it doesn't reflect what happens on the road. Even a poorly built wheel will last forever if you never ride it. Start putting repetitive stress on the rim, loading and unloading each spoke once per revolution, and you'll probably see things change.
Maybe. As has been noted, plenty of wheels with lower cross numbers and even higher cross numbers when dealing with straight pull hubs (like my very reliable Mavic Cosmos rear wheel) are built with non-interlaced spokes. I anxiously await FB's thoughts on why/how interlaced spokes improve fatigue life. I hope he has some real-world testing to back it up.
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Old 02-27-17, 10:33 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
I believe that the primary reason to cross lace (tangential lacing pattern) is to be able to transmit torque between hub and rim without the "wind up" issues that radial patterns suffer from (just ask the early MtB riders who mounted front disk brakes but still used the radial pattern that their previously rim braked set up had used). A. R. Sharp figured this out in 1896 in his book Bicycles & Tricycles: A Classic Treatise on Their Design and Construction - See more at: Bicycles & Tricycles: A Classic Treatise on Their Design and Construction That a crossed spoke pattern can be tied and soldered is the coincidental benefit, not the driver.


Again I will maintain that hundreds of manufactures have chosen to interlace their wheels for many decades for real reasons. My real life observations when all is otherwise the same (as in hub, spoke, rim and cross pattern being the same) an interlaced pattern results in a laterally stiffer wheel and longer spoke life. The trouble with picking out examples of non interlaced wheels that have no interlaced partners is that they can't be a part of the data pool of real comparisons. Andy.
+1 on your comments, and it also applies to braking when you have disc brakes.
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Old 02-27-17, 11:15 AM
  #38  
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Let's try a new approach to understanding why we weave spokes over/under.

If a picture is worth a thousand words a demonstration is worth a million, and I don't feel like typing that much, so a demonstration is how we'll go.

---------------

You'll need a table and chairs and some length of light duty string like the stuff bakeries use to tie boxes. The actual strength doesn't matter, but something you can snap by pulling hard works better.

Tie a length to each side of the back of a chair at table height, and sitting opposite, draw the chain up to the table, keeping the strings parallel, and pull on both to add some tension. It helps to wind it around your hand to get a solid no-slip grip.

Now give one a quick firm tug, hopefully hard enough to snap the string. If it doesn't snap, try a few times so you have a sense of the spike in tension as felt on your hand. Also note what, if anything, you felt in the other hand. Take a moment and digest.

Next, cross the strings in the middle bringing them back to the same sides to represent 2 woven spokes. Add the tension to both and repeat the tug using the same speed and force that broke the string last time.

I could tell you what will happen, but believe that the lesson won't take until you do it for yourself, though maybe someone who does can report back here.



Now, a small favor, to those who like this demonstration and tell friends, please remember and credit the source.
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Old 02-27-17, 02:32 PM
  #39  
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I built a non-interlaced rear wheel for myself years ago. Worked just like any other wheel - except at high speed descents.
Past 30 mph it would begin to hum and vibrate enough to be felt through the bike and be heard by my riding buddies.
While the bike was still rideable, it was unnerving enough that I decided to rebuild it interlaced, which stopped the noise and the vibrations.
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Old 03-05-21, 12:27 PM
  #40  
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Though this is an old topic, it's still very relevant. I like to play around with things, had extra time due to Covid-19, so decided to build a road wheelset without interlaced spokes. 2X rear both sides. I've got maybe 500 miles on it and I don't detect any differences between it and similar interlaced wheelsets I've built. Spokes are still tight and wheels are still true. Whether that would hold at 2,500 or 5,000 miles is anyone's guess. I think some of it has to do with the components you use. I used stout components and nipple washers. Maybe specifically-engineered components are why some high-end wheel manufacturers don't interlace the spokes on their wheels? Or may they don't interlace them because they don't want the wheels to last forever.
But, in any case, I've decided that I will never again build a non-interlaced wheel. There's no reason to tempt fate. Wear a helmet, check your brakes, keep your chain clean and interlace your spokes.
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Old 03-06-21, 10:18 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by joejack951
Interesting. So your feeling/experience is that non-interlaced spokes yield a stiffer wheel while interlacing makes the wheel more resilient. Other seem to claim that interlacing stiffens the wheel. I'm planted firmly in the middle thinking it makes no difference at all.

Any feeling about the effects of interlacing on j-bend spoke life?
The resilience element makes sense. Laced spokes deflect a little where they cross, so if one spoke is tensioned as in crossing a bump, it also tensions the spoke it is crossed with, thus spreading the deflecting force.

I can see where the spokes of a non-laced wheels have a straighter pull with no deflection, giving more or at least no less lateral stiffness than a laced wheel. This would go against my initial impression.

I have ridden repaired wheels where the mechanic forgot to lace the spokes that were replaced, and the wheel didn't explode or cause other forms of distress.

And, of course, there are some hub and wheel designs where the cross pattern and flange design would just make lacing impractical or impossible.

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Old 03-07-21, 05:15 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by joejack951
There seems to be a lot of tradition in cycling and not all of it makes sense. Tying and soldering spokes was once quite commonplace as I've come to understand but apparently it was a useless modification.
I’d call it ”rarely useful” rather than ”useless”.
A tied and soldered spoke will stay in place even if broken. That can be quite useful under some circumstances. A broken spoke can flop around and cause all sorts of mayhem, incl skewering a calf. Not a frequent accident, but nasty.
I
Originally Posted by joejack951
I'm not saying that interlaced spokes make no difference but short of a test proving it one way or the other I'll remain skeptical. I will still continue to interlace my spokes, though, just in case
The first pair of ”nice” wheels I built for myself I built up non-interlaced. Ended up redoing them as they would hum and vibrate in a disturbing manner at speed. Switching to interlaced stopped that and made for a nicer ride.
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Old 03-07-21, 09:20 AM
  #43  
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Both interlacing and tying and soldering were practices instituted when spokes were of far lesser quality than those available today (and before the importance of correct tensioning of spokes was fully understood).

When I began building wheels in the late 1960s, the choices in spokes available from the local bike store ran from Torrington and Union (galvanized, mildish steel) to Trois Etoiles stainless steel. Back then, in the days of 36-spoke wheels being standard, spoke breakage was not particularly frequent, but it wasn't a big surprise when it happened, either, occurring at something like the rate of flat tires. It's interesting that several changes in bike wheel technology took place at around the same time, in the early 1980s: stainless spokes started showing up at lower price points in a manufacturer's lineup of bike models; spoke counts in high-end wheels dropped from 36 to 32 and, later, to 28, 24, etc.; rims were manufactured with newer, stronger aluminum alloys; and Wheelsmith began selling spoke tension meters.

The availability of tension meters might have been the most significant change of all, where wheel building suddenly changed from an art to a science. Builders could still make blunders (e.g., a local self-anointed wheel-building guru used to build even the lightest wheels, using the most fragile rims, with non-butted 14-gauge spokes---i.e., what DT referred to in their literature as "tandem gauge"), but wheel longevity went way up.

Spoke breakage can still occur, of course, so it makes sense that interlacing of spokes continues to be standard practice. As for tying and soldering, whatever vanishingly small benefit is conferred (if any) is offset by the need to replace two spokes rather than one when a spoke breaks.

On the other hand, I doubt that anyone here would disagree with the statement that high-flange hubs have been conclusively proven to be superior to low-flange hubs. Or is it the other way around? I can never remember.
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Old 03-07-21, 02:14 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
On the other hand, I doubt that anyone here would disagree with the statement that high-flange hubs have been conclusively proven to be superior to low-flange hubs. Or is it the other way around? I can never remember.
Certainly superior aesthetically to my eye at least.
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