drowling23

I've now bought 3 different ebikes, so I though I'd share my (entirely subjective) thoughts on the kind of stuff that works - and doesn't - for ebikes. Here goes...

• Frame: strictly dual-suspension. I don't see why one wouldn't get a dual-sus bike considering with ebikes, it really doesn't matter. As for frame material, don't worry about carbon, just get steel: nice and heavy. Carbon makes no sense for an ebike unless it's a foldable.
• Motor: Bosch or Yamaha are the only ones I know, they are industry-grade motors that you know will work well. As for homemade kits such as Bafang, I will say one thing: torque sensor. This thing makes all the difference, it defines the difference between an ebike and a moped that's completely insensitive to how much effort you put in. Let me just say, the level of enjoyment is very different, and so is the level of safety.
• Batteries: Depends on the range you need. I have Bosch DualBattery (2x500Wh, ~200km range) and I cannot live without it. Traveling on a single battery is annoying, I keep worrying that I will run out of juice. A home-made build will let you make a much larger battery, of course, but with commercial systems Bosch DualBattery is great.
• Rear wheel: Forget derailleurs! They are meaningless on ebikes. Why go for a clunky, unreliable derailleur when you can install a Rohloff 500/14 that will probably live for 10 years? Honestly, now that I've started using geared hubs, I cannot go back, and I keep telling anyone to throw the derailleur away as soon as they get an ebike and replace it. And no, before you ask, there's no issue with high speeds, at least not with Rohloff.
• Wheel size: Most ebikes are 27.5 and you'll have to live with it. If I had to choose, though, I'd go for 24/3.0 or maybe even smaller. Why? Well, to be honest, sooner or later you're going to want to go 50kph and this is when you realize that, oops, your 27.5" bike doesn't give you enough stability. Sadly, this is something that's out of our hands since there are no large 24" frames (though Haibike makes a 24" kids ebike, in case you care).
• Tyre width: I think getting anything less than 2.6 on an ebike is pointless. I would say 3.0 is ideal. Electric fatbikes are awesome, so if you absolutely must do your own Bafang build, get a fatbike! Again, the reason I recommend this is, with an ebike, there are no weight concerns, it's all about comfort. And electric fatbikes are still fairly unique!
• Tubes: the thickest available; for example, if you go with Maxxis, you'd go for Maxxis Downhill (1.5mm thick) on a 24" or 26" bike, Maxxis Freeride on a 27.5" and Maxxis Fat if your tires are thicker than 2.5".
• Tyre type: Well you probably don't want Nobby Nics trust me, I tried, the amount of vibration that you get at 20kph is really annoying, it travels into your backside and your arms. Rock Razors or Table Tops are just fine. If you envisage traveling on roads only, then you want the Hookworm tyre, though personally I lean towards Holy Roller. And yes, this is a 'dirt' tyre with a checkered pattern, very nice.
• Seat, pedals, handlebars: I always get the same set: Serfas Rx Cruiser, Shimano MX80 Saints, NC-17 Trekking. Again, these items are motivated by comfort, which is something you can afford on an ebike since you're not chasing weight economy.
• Lights: I go for Supernova M99 Pro, not exactly cheap, but it automatically adjusts to ambient light (so you can keep it on all the time) and has the low beam/high beam switch, which is super-useful in unlit parks and whatnot. This is a very expensive light, mind you! Also, it's only for Bosch, Yamaha PW cannot handle the 12V power load. For Yamaha I recommend the Lupine SL S, it's half as powerful (only 6V) but also has automatic light adjustment and also a more smooth distribution of light compared to the Supernova.
• Mudguards: Install them. There's no bike where the mudguards don't fit, though as you go with fatter tyres, it becomes more and more tricky.
• Rack: Get one if you can, as large as you can. Again, weight is not an issue on an ebike, so you can bring more food to the picnic or more spare parts for the bike.

InTheRain

Just my two cents

Robert C

My only complaint with your list is that full suspension, non-Chinese mid-drive is an expensive bike. I feel that your list, of used as a spec sheet, would produce a good bike. The problem is that it may be more than a person "just seeing if this will work for getting to work" is going to suffer sticker shock and never give it a chance.

NoPhart

That's the thing about E-bikes, everything is entirely subjective. Throttle-boost is a MUST in my book, so that eliminates all the Bosch & Yamaha mid-drives. Torque sensor vs. other... I totaling prefer the Bafang style that adds power up to a speed, then backs off and lets you pedal; very efficient. Speaking of Bafang mid-drives, they can go from bike to bike AND don't use a proprietary battery; HUGE positives in my book too. As for tire sizes, I've never heard anyone state smaller wheels are more stable. Is that a mis-type? 29er's give the best roll and stability, combined with slacker head tube angles.

Unfortunately the pre-made's still have a long way to go, but the Shimano E8000 mid-drive does look promising when compared to the Bosch & Yamaha mid-drives. I think it will be better than both of those.

Like I said, everything in E-bikes is subjective. That includes what you get for the price you pay. Rohloff? Wonderful IGH, but cost more than most peoples entire complete E-bike!

drowling23

No, not a mistype. As I see it, stability is a byproduct of:

• Area of tyre contact with road
• How high the center of gravity is
• How big the surface area of bike+rider is (crosswind)

Look at motorbikes or home-made electric bikes - they all try to go for 24/3.0 tyres or thereabouts. Cycling at 45-50kph on a 27.5" bike is possible but it feels a bit scary.

angerdan

Here's my conclusion from my experience with bicycles, mountainbikes and pedelecs:

• Frame: depends on the road surface (quality), average speed and personal preference of comfort and the will to spend at least 50% more for full suspension compared to hardtail. Frame material isn't a matter, as long as you're okay with an overall weight of the bicycle around 24kg/53pound.
• Motor: Bosch, Yamaha, Brose, BionX and Panasonic are the names to mention (in this order) for ready to drive bicycles. Middle frame motors gives the bicycle a better center of mass than rear hub motors.
• Batteries: depends on the range you need and amount of support you want. 75km/45miles are possible with 500Wh and 300% support of the own pedal power.
  bosch-ebike.com/en/service/range-assistant/
• Gear: depends on your choice between cheaper derailleurs meaning more service effort and replacement every 5.000km or an hub gear with much longer runtime chain/toothed belt for hassle free continuously variable transmission.
  Harmony H|Sync - Products - nuvincicyling.com
  rohloff.de/en/products/speedhub/e-14/
  Carbon Drive Belts for eBikes | Gates Carbon Drive
• Wheel size: Mostly you can choose between 27.5" and 29". Smaller diameter gives you more control over the bicycle and lower center of mass than 29".
• Tyre width: Since friction loss isn't a matter on an ebike, it depends on the tire tread you need/want. MTB profile gives more grip on most surfaces and are to be preferred for safety reasons. So you'll end in a range between 1.75 and 2.5. But consider if you want fenders/mudguards, they mostly are available unly upon 80mm/2.6".
• Tyre type: Always a compromise wtween rolling comfort, on/offroad grip, puncture protection and service life. Weight isn't a relevant factor anymore on pedelecs.
  So for average use Schwalbe Marathon Plus MTB are the choice.
  schwalbe.com/en/offroad-reader/marathon-plus-mtb.html
• Seat, pedals, handlebars: You probably will go for longer rides than before with an pedelec, so it's about comfort and safety. There are even first pedelec seats. Pedals should have pins to give enough grip and control even when it's wet outside. Handlebars should be very straight to give a direct control in every situation, so stick with straigh or riser bars.
  selleroyal.com/en/ezone
  google.com/shopping/product/12642479932610972099?prds=scoring:tps
  citybicycleco.com/blogs/places-and-spaces/45179589-the-ultimate-guide-to-bike-handlebars
  Lights: The Supernova M99 Pro get's you at the same level as car headlights (1.600lm). If it's worth you $500, go for it! For less money you'll also get good lights like the B&M IQ-X E or Lupine SL.
  20170822_Supernova_Kompatibilit%C3%A4tsliste-E-Bike-Antriebe.pdf
  https://www.bumm.de/en/products/e-bike-beleuchtung/parent/164/produkt/164r60ts7-01.html
  
• Mudguards: Install them. There's no bike where the mudguards don't fit, though as you go with fatter tyres, it becomes more and more tricky.
  These are the widest fenders available (80mm/3.15"):
  pletscher.ch/images/content/products/fenders/en/Aluminiumschutzblech-R80.pdf
  pletscher.ch/index.php/en/products-en/fenders-en/fenders-en
• Rack: The only question is which rack system, not if you should get one. Topeak MTX system is great, gives you plenty of options for mounting basket, waterproof bag, travel bag with panniers, trolley bag and even an suitcase/notebook bag has been out there. Pletscher is also nice.
  topeak.com/global/en/products/rear-rack-bags/122-mtx-trunkbag-dxp
  pletscher.ch/index.php/en/products-en/accessories-en

Joe Remi

Weight is definitely an issue if you want to carry the bike up a flight of stairs to your apartment. It also matters if you want a real cycling experience with the power shut off at times, and if you get caught out there with a drained battery. A huge, full-suspension fatbike on the street is just silly. Not that there's anything wrong with that if it's what you're into (I like them), but presenting it as a necessity for street ebiking is a bit much.

My next build will start as a steel 25-pound bike without suspension, then add a Bafang BBSHD. Light enough to carry upstairs, light enough to run at PAS 0 for parts of a ride.

Oh, and it will have a derailleur. There is no quantifiable difference in reliability or mileage life between this and an IGH hub: Both use chains and sprockets that will wear faster than a non-assisted bike; these forces have no effect on a derailleur's ability to move back and forth across a cassette. Plus it's cheap and easy to replace when the springs do eventually wear out. When a hub goes you have to rebuild the whole wheel.

drowling23

Umm, regarding weight, we have Walk Assist which kind of negates the issue of having to push the bike up the stairs. The bike kinda goes by itself. I don't know if Bafang has it though, but since it has throttle controls, maybe you can just set it to go slowly. Not the same as having a sensor guide you, but should work.

As for derailleurs, my experience is it gets unhinged, starts rattling, you need to watch for different wear & tear on the different sprockets. Basically, it has multiple points of failure. Another issue is that on a kids ebike, an adult-size derailleur almost reaches the ground -- the clearance is far too low. So I would avoid. It's much easier to replace an IGH once every 10 years than to replace the cassette once a year or so. Really, the fact there are fewer exposed parts means much greater reliability. Also, since the chain doesn't get deformed on a gear hub, your chain lives 4 to 6 times (!!!) longer. I think this is significant.

What else? Oh, the chain doesn't bounce so you don't have to protect the frame.

You can check out this page, which outlines all the benefits of IGH over derailleurs... and yeah, some disadvantages, too. TL;DR is that IGH is an epic win.

drowling23

Yeah this is a problem actually, because the largest off-the-shelf mudguards are 65mm, and then it jumps into fatbike territory. I'm inclined to think that 2.6" is the minimum for ebikes, and 3.0" is probably the most sensible. Then again, it depends on the wheel size, too.

I just got the Lupine SL S for my son's Haibike ebike and I'm very impressed. It is 6V only (sadly, Yamaha cannot handle Supernova Pro's 12V requirement) but it has a very smooth light cone, and also has automatic adjustment based on the amount of ambient light.

My ebikes came with the following tires: Hutchinson Toro, Rock Razor and the kids bike has Table Top. All are MTB-ish. Marathon Plus MTB look good, too.

Joe Remi

No, Bafangs don't have walk assist.

No, derailleurs do not get "unhinged and rattly over time, with multiple failure points" unless you're using really crappy cheap derailleurs. You seem to be conflating derailleurs with cassettes as if they're the same part. A derailleur will far outlast a chain and cassette on an ebike, and the latter two pieces are cheap and easy to replace.

I also don't buy that an IGH under the same shifting loads is going to last 10 years without rebuilding or replacing.

You make an awful lot of blanket statements about certain components because you seem to prefer different components. Good on you for your preferences, but your comments about the stuff you're not into don't sound like they're derived from using them.

dilkes

Although I have never actually used it, from the Bafang C965 Display Manual (the display I use on my BBS02):

Joe Remi

Ah, interesting. I used Luna's DPC-14 display (recently sold so I can't try it), so I don't know if that feature was available. At any rate it wouldn't solve the issue of a bike being too heavy to ride without power, but it'd sure be nice on stairs.

Edit: I found documentation that other displays use it, too. I don't know how I missed this first time around, but I didn't think Bafang kits had Walk Assist. Surprise!

Daven911

Thank you. Excelllent stuff.

drowling23

Yeah, I meant the cassette, of course. I'm speaking from experience, one of my ebikes has Shimano XT that I keep having to either tighten or replace, whereas the other bike has Rohloff and I haven't had to worry about it so far.

Joe Remi

I certainly agree that a Rohloff is a very nice piece, but it's like saying a Honda Civic has some weaknesses so you're going to buy a BMW. It's a big jump in cash for a small benefit, IMO.

Joe Remi

OTOH, if you have the cash and really want a Rohloff, check out this baby!

https://lunacycle.com/luna-apex/

angerdan

This pedelec also has Rohloff, but a german Bosch Motor too and goes up to 45km/h.
r-m.de/en-en/e-bike/delite/delite-gx-rohloff-hs/

drowling23

This is precisely the pedelec I actually own, hehe.

So I can comment on Rohloff at 45kph. First, when Bosch sends an ebike manufacturer documents on operation of motors on gearhubs, they cleverly completely ignore the very idea of having Rohloff on the HS motor. I think they want to avoid guaranteeing anything, even in spite of the fact that both R&M and others (e.g., Heisenberg) use Rohloff+speed motors. So manufacturers do go for Rohloff+speed, but I don't know what Bosch thinks about this.

So, what can I say? Well, there are corner cases when the chain comes off. This typically happens on challenging terrain when you put the bike in low gear and the motor applies insane amount of torque against lack of torque, but then suddenly the bike catches the ground good, all this torque forces the gear hub to go neutral, chain comes off the Rohloff hub and also starts going around the front sprocket.

Not nice. But chain going around the front sprocket is also a problem with derailleurs. In fact, it's much worse because the chain is very long, bouncing around, and whenever its natural flexibility is damaged (by mud, of course), it wraps around the sprocket and forces me to choose a large rear sprocket (i.e., go into a low gear).

drowling23

I don't understand how they get a 40 mile range with a battery of 1500Wh. It needs to be said, ordinary Bosch/Yamaha give you 70 miles on 500Wh, so I'd expect 200 miles with this size of battery.


Of course, it's not a like-for-like comparison because Bafang is not pedal-assist, but still, those numbers are very low. Also, repeating myself, 26/4 tyres take the center of gravity too high for speeds over 30mph. Cannot find total weight of this boke.

I also don't understand why there's a chain guide on the rear wheel. You don't need those with Rohloff. With Rohloff, you might want a front chain guide, but generally the chain just doesn't move. Weird, maybe someone can explain this design to me.

Joe Remi

The Apex is available programmed for 2500W, and will undoubtedly be sold that way to most buyers. That's a ton of power and the 40 mile range is quoted for throttle-only. As the text says you'll get much more in pedal-assist, especially if you run it at PAS 1.

I presume the chain tensioner is intended to take up some of the shock between a big blast from the motor through the chain and hub.

drowling23

I don't understand what you need 2500W for and what to do with it. I have an ordinary Bosch motor (250W) yet I have no problems reaching 50kph. What is all that power for? I guess I would need to try, except... sadly, I just got a message on FB from Luna Cycles saying they do not ship prebuilt bikes internationally. I would have liked to try this one out...

Joe Remi

I found you a bike that clicks all your boxes and you're like, "That's lame, my 250W Bosch goes that fast easily." Come on, man!

Bicyclz

I just bought my first new ebike. Scott ESUB Tour with 250 Bosch Active Line motor & 400ah battery.
Pretty cool actually & (maybe importantly for some) road legal here.

Without the motor it rides like a traditional 3 speed Roadster & weighing just over 50lbs it can be carried upstairs if absolutely necessary.

I do believe that a Bosch central drive is a good place to start with ebikes & I'll add my feedback/experiences with this machine if there is any interest hereabouts.

I think Scott is currently promoting sales in US (Check = Electric Bike Review) so they may well be more common your side of the pond before long. This link shows my bike in its USA configuration being reviwed.

Pretty cool for an entry level quality ebike IMHO.
I paid $1400 for mine as an ex demonstrator. Looks like $3k+ on your side of the water!

angerdan

I just can say you'd make a good decision


So true.
Of course it's cheaper inside the EU than international exports.
In germany there're even bicycles with Bosch for <1.400€ new.
Important thing with bosch is the great support with accesoires and spare parts/batteries and service station with qualified staff.

drowling23

Well, I guess I'm just used to what I'm used to. But sadly, I cannot buy the Luna bike; I reached out to them on FB and they say they are "working on" international shipping and they don't ship fully built bikes. I'd get one just for the fun of it.