Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Touring
Reload this Page >

Building up a Surly with old-school parts?

Notices
Touring Have a dream to ride a bike across your state, across the country, or around the world? Self-contained or fully supported? Trade ideas, adventures, and more in our bicycle touring forum.

Building up a Surly with old-school parts?

Old 02-23-21, 05:48 PM
  #1  
Fuji1986
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Vermont
Posts: 24

Bikes: 1989 Miyata 618GT, 1986 Fuji Sagres

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 16 Times in 9 Posts
Building up a Surly with old-school parts?

Since the '80s I've been riding gear from the '80s. My latest bike is a museum-quality Fuji Touring Series III that was barely ridden when I scored it on the 'Bay. In some ways it is the perfect bike, but like so many great bikes from that era it can't fit wider tires--forget about touring on a plush 38mm or 42mm tire in fashion these days. Which means the bike pretty much remains a pavement tourer.

So I'm sniffing around at today's new bikes. The Surly Cross-check seems like a nice all-rounder. My question is how many folks buy the frame and build it up with vintage parts? To keep costs down, I would even consider cold-setting the rear dropouts so I can keep my nice 126mm wheelsets. Then of course, there's the matter of mounting a low-Q crank on a frame designed to accept fat tires. I dunno--is this all more trouble than it's worth? How many "retro" Surly build owners out there?
Fuji1986 is offline  
Old 02-23-21, 06:07 PM
  #2  
saddlesores
Senior Member
 
saddlesores's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Thailand..........Nakhon Nowhere
Posts: 3,652

Bikes: inferior steel....and....noodly aluminium

Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1053 Post(s)
Liked 339 Times in 228 Posts
why buy a new frame, then cold set to fit narrower hubs
you're unlikely to find replacement parts for on tour?

got old skool parts? buy a lightly used or nos frame off ebay
for prolly a quarter the cost of a new frame, and then build
up with your vintage components.
saddlesores is online now  
Old 02-23-21, 06:23 PM
  #3  
Fuji1986
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Vermont
Posts: 24

Bikes: 1989 Miyata 618GT, 1986 Fuji Sagres

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 16 Times in 9 Posts
Originally Posted by saddlesores
why buy a new frame, then cold set to fit narrower hubs
you're unlikely to find replacement parts for on tour?

got old skool parts? buy a lightly used or nos frame off ebay
for prolly a quarter the cost of a new frame, and then build
up with your vintage components.
Well, when you're running a Phil Wood rear hub, you don't have to worry much about needing parts. But getting a used Surly is worth considering (even if I kind of crave a new one, since my last new bike was in 1989).
Fuji1986 is offline  
Old 02-23-21, 07:00 PM
  #4  
sloar 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Elwood Indiana
Posts: 7,560

Bikes: they change so much I'm tired of updating this

Mentioned: 168 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1211 Post(s)
Liked 1,120 Times in 421 Posts
Get a nice 8 speed wheelset, you could still use older parts. Shimano Deore and a set of barcons would work.
__________________
Semper fi
sloar is offline  
Old 02-23-21, 07:29 PM
  #5  
Tourist in MSN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,112

Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3426 Post(s)
Liked 1,441 Times in 1,122 Posts
I can't imagine why you would want to go with a freewheel type hub, the newer design freehub type hubs are much stronger and less likely to have an axle failure.

Get a Shimano M756 or M756A rear hub. Or, the Deore equivalent. I do not know if you can find a 36 hole version for rim brakes any more but the disc version hub can be had in 36H and can certainly be used in a rim brake bike. Good price, solid, cup and cone with quarter inch steel balls and a steel axle, will last a very long time if kept in adjustment. Use an 8 or 9 or 10 speed cassette.

And I do not understand why you would chose friction over indexed rear shifting when it is readily available.

I built up my new titanium Lynskey in 2017 with eight speed cassette on a M756A hub, triple square taper crank, bar end shifters (rear indexed, front friction). Is that old enough for you? I had to use disc brake, as the frame was disc and not rim brake version. And quality cup and cone bottom brackets are nearly impossible to find, so I used cartridge bottom bracket.
Tourist in MSN is offline  
Old 02-23-21, 07:33 PM
  #6  
sloar 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Elwood Indiana
Posts: 7,560

Bikes: they change so much I'm tired of updating this

Mentioned: 168 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1211 Post(s)
Liked 1,120 Times in 421 Posts
Some people just like vintage bikes, myself included. For touring I want modern, but for a road bike I prefer 6 speed friction shifter on the downtube with a nice Columbus SLX Italian frame.
__________________
Semper fi
sloar is offline  
Old 02-23-21, 08:10 PM
  #7  
Fuji1986
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Vermont
Posts: 24

Bikes: 1989 Miyata 618GT, 1986 Fuji Sagres

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 16 Times in 9 Posts
Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I can't imagine why you would want to go with a freewheel type hub, the newer design freehub type hubs are much stronger and less likely to have an axle failure.

Get a Shimano M756 or M756A rear hub. Or, the Deore equivalent. I do not know if you can find a 36 hole version for rim brakes any more but the disc version hub can be had in 36H and can certainly be used in a rim brake bike. Good price, solid, cup and cone with quarter inch steel balls and a steel axle, will last a very long time if kept in adjustment. Use an 8 or 9 or 10 speed cassette.

And I do not understand why you would chose friction over indexed rear shifting when it is readily available.

I built up my new titanium Lynskey in 2017 with eight speed cassette on a M756A hub, triple square taper crank, bar end shifters (rear indexed, front friction). Is that old enough for you? I had to use disc brake, as the frame was disc and not rim brake version. And quality cup and cone bottom brackets are nearly impossible to find, so I used cartridge bottom bracket.
I do have indexing, actually--a 7-speed Shimano Ultegra shifter mounted to a Shimano bar-end pod. Works perfectly. I only floated the idea of keeping the 126mm spacing because I don't want to throw out perfectly good equipment (and a Phil Wood freewheel rear hub is plenty strong). That said, I may just have to make the wheel switch but keep what other parts I can.
Fuji1986 is offline  
Old 02-23-21, 08:19 PM
  #8  
veganbikes
Clark W. Griswold
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 13,277

Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26

Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4251 Post(s)
Liked 3,864 Times in 2,578 Posts
Look I get wanting to use Phil Wood stuff, it is Phil Wood Stuff but I would stick with a 130mm spacing which Phil Wood makes (or go 135) You can still run a ton of old school stuff quite well. My old XT 8 speed derailleur is rock solid even through some really bad shifting and poor maintenance plus it being pretty well used before me. It is probably my favorite derailleur and one I wish I had bought stock in back in the day (but I didn't know geared stuff back then and knew little about bikes).
veganbikes is online now  
Likes For veganbikes:
Old 02-23-21, 08:29 PM
  #9  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,535

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10899 Post(s)
Liked 7,390 Times in 4,148 Posts
A crosscheck is set at 132.5mm in back. I get that Phil hubs are a holy grail for some, but it seems odd to coldest a frame inward 7.5mm just to use an old freewheel(no matter how nice it may have been 35 years ago).
To each their own though and building from a frame makes for some fun customization.


If you are concerned about crank arms clearing chainstays, but use a long enough square taper BB. Push it out as far as you want, really. There is no rule that says a square taper crank must be run at X spacing.

I have a 5 year old Black Mountain MC frame that used to be my gravel frame and is now built up for commute/weekend camping. Its designed to clear up to 50mm tires and has a 35 year old crank mounted with whatever the designed BB spindle length is. Works fine. And if I needed more space, I could just get a BB with a slightly longer spindle.

it also has brakes that are about 33 years old, plus shifters and a rear derailleur that are over 20 years old.
So while it isnt a retro Surly, it certainly has some retro parts.

mstateglfr is offline  
Likes For mstateglfr:
Old 02-24-21, 06:06 AM
  #10  
Tourist in MSN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,112

Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3426 Post(s)
Liked 1,441 Times in 1,122 Posts
Originally Posted by Fuji1986
... I only floated the idea of keeping the 126mm spacing because I don't want to throw out perfectly good equipment (and a Phil Wood freewheel rear hub is plenty strong). That said, I may just have to make the wheel switch but keep what other parts I can.
I get it on the Phil hub, but what made the Phil hub famous was that the standard freewheel hubs of that era were not strong, the Phil was a standout because it was.

But now there are plenty of other hubs out there that are quite strong too. I mentioned above the quarter inch steel ball bearings and steel axle hubs that I prefer for touring on a derailleur bike, there were lots of strong options but this is the option I chose because it is reliable and if something failed, most any bike shop has the cone wrenches needed to fix it.

Once a year I go to a local swap meet (except this year), I see old Phil wheels there, a couple decades ago I would have lusted over them but not now.


Originally Posted by veganbikes
... My old XT 8 speed derailleur is rock solid even through some really bad shifting and poor maintenance plus it being pretty well used before me. It is probably my favorite derailleur and one I wish I had bought stock in back in the day (but I didn't know geared stuff back then and knew little about bikes).
I have bought several M739 or similar XT derailleurs off Ebay or at swap meets, have a few spares now. Have them on three different bikes. I agree, they work well and look nice with a subtle simplicity to the design compared to some of the newer ones.



In the photo I put modern ball bearing jockey wheels on this one. Some of the ones I bought used did not have the stock jockey wheels or sealed ceramic bushing. Will likely change the jockey wheels on a few other bikes later.
Tourist in MSN is offline  
Likes For Tourist in MSN:
Old 02-24-21, 06:43 AM
  #11  
saddlesores
Senior Member
 
saddlesores's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Thailand..........Nakhon Nowhere
Posts: 3,652

Bikes: inferior steel....and....noodly aluminium

Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1053 Post(s)
Liked 339 Times in 228 Posts
Originally Posted by Fuji1986
Well, when you're running a Phil Wood rear hub, you don't have to worry much about needing parts. But getting a used Surly is worth considering (even if I kind of crave a new one, since my last new bike was in 1989).
you don't? are you shirley?
i had phil 48-spokes with 7-spd shimano megarange
on my heavy-duty tour bike.
was able to replace the rim in alice springs, airlifted from adelaide.
finished the tour, but much later found the axle was slightly bent
and needing replacement.
so sure, not likely, but (**)it happens.
saddlesores is online now  
Old 02-24-21, 04:16 PM
  #12  
Fuji1986
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Vermont
Posts: 24

Bikes: 1989 Miyata 618GT, 1986 Fuji Sagres

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 16 Times in 9 Posts
Regarding modern hubs, how often do you have to service them? My problem is I've gotten more lazy with bike maintenance; I simply no longer feel like overhauling my bikes every year. I haven't touched my Phil hubs in 20 years; I haven't touched my Mavic hubs (formerly on my race bike) in 30 years. They just go and go. I kind of like that.
Fuji1986 is offline  
Old 02-24-21, 05:45 PM
  #13  
Tourist in MSN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,112

Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3426 Post(s)
Liked 1,441 Times in 1,122 Posts
Originally Posted by Fuji1986
Regarding modern hubs, how often do you have to service them? My problem is I've gotten more lazy with bike maintenance; I simply no longer feel like overhauling my bikes every year. I haven't touched my Phil hubs in 20 years; I haven't touched my Mavic hubs (formerly on my race bike) in 30 years. They just go and go. I kind of like that.
My cup and cone hubs, if I feel any play in the bearings, I open them up and look inside. If everything looks good (balls are shiny, no rust), I add some grease and re-assemble and adjust. If anything looks bad, take out the bearings, clean everything, reassemble. If the bearings are not shiny because something got in there or a bearing cracked, that goes beyond the scope of this simple answer.

Hubs that use sealed cartridge bearings, you will know when it is time to do something, unfortunately. There are some good youtube videos by bike shops, Park tools, etc.

Freehubs, it depends on brand and model but that generally is not something that is considered user serviceable. I replaced one freehub on a used wheel that I bought instead of trying to repair it. I think some people might remove a freehub to try to add grease to them, I just keep using them.

Last edited by Tourist in MSN; 02-24-21 at 05:48 PM.
Tourist in MSN is offline  
Old 02-24-21, 07:53 PM
  #14  
indyfabz
Senior Member
 
indyfabz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 39,052
Mentioned: 210 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18319 Post(s)
Liked 15,281 Times in 7,225 Posts
Which museum would that be?
indyfabz is offline  
Old 02-24-21, 09:09 PM
  #15  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,535

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10899 Post(s)
Liked 7,390 Times in 4,148 Posts
Originally Posted by Fuji1986
Regarding modern hubs, how often do you have to service them? My problem is I've gotten more lazy with bike maintenance; I simply no longer feel like overhauling my bikes every year. I haven't touched my Phil hubs in 20 years; I haven't touched my Mavic hubs (formerly on my race bike) in 30 years. They just go and go. I kind of like that.
You haven't touched your hubs in 20 and 30 years?...maybe crack the Phil hubs open and take a peek(then add new grease) before you build an entire touring bike based on a single hub.
mstateglfr is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.