Andrew R Stewart 

I owe 1-track-mind an apology. I went into a personal side I should have avoided. What I was trying to get at was the rather narrow view he (and I apologize if 1-track-mind is female) was taking in that carbon frame design wasn't going to handle loaded touring bike needs. That I drifted into a pet peeve of mine is my mistake (other groups I belong to require real names and locations on sign off. better to limit the discourse to positive levels). I do stand by my suggestions that carbon can be designed to do more then it is currently doing. It will take the market to make that viable and then manufactures will spend the time/money to do so. As to the bubble gum frame- when the market wants it someone will make it. But like fat bikes with their mega wide "Q" factor I suspect I wouldn't be comfy on what is likely the amount of bubble gum that would be needed to attain the strength. Andy

DTG

What all did you have on your bike and did you stick to the weight limits they suggested? I use my elite as my all rounder but I also keep it well within the limits of the weight. When bikepacking/touring, I use a full frame pack, arkel rollpacker in front and back, a RD gas tank/jerry can/feedbag, and two salsa anything cages on both forks.

DeadGrandpa

Weight limits THEY suggested? You mean like the bike shop gave me an Owner's Manual? That didn't happen. Maybe that's why I no longer do business with them. Well, one of the reasons, anyway.

Full frame bag by Revelate, handlebar roll, Viscacha seat bag by Revelate, and a pair of medium sized panniers on the rear rack, holding 10 days supply of food and a bear vault. Don't pack when you're hungry.

i dunno. I'm 170 pounds. I probably had 30 pounds of gear, food and water on the bike in addition to my own weight, but that's only a guess. A month later I was similarly loaded but had ditched the rear rack in favor of an Extrawheel trailer. No problem with that, indicating the issue was the weight on the back wheel. I love the Jamis's ride, and with a moderate load, the only thing you'll regret is the gearing range that comes stock on the bike, if you ride uphill.

DTG

The front and back is limited to 25 lbs a piece. I never saw it in the manual but it's on the Jamis website though.

BigAura

Nice! 50-lbs is way-plenty if you're using modern camping gear. It's great to see that these new adventure bikes are purposely designed & built for fully-loaded touring.

Personally, I'd never want to test the spec-limits. But with 30-35 lbs properly done-up as shown in the Jamis ad video:

,

I'd do it.

djb

just to mention, to me as someone who has toured for a long time, fully loaded means fully loaded, and these bikes certainly arent marketed as this, but specifically as for want of a better term, the "bikepacking" setup--which generally means less stuff and certainly less stuff up front, weight wise.

it certainly makes sense, as you said, equipment is generally lighter nowadays, tents and whatnot, so it certainly is a lot easier to have more comfort with a lot less stuff than lets say 30 years ago when I started.

I reckon just about any bike can easily handle the more or less amount you mention, and given these bikes are made with the intention of going on rough roads, they'll be fine.

djb

on this topic of official rating of carbon bits--in 2010 I bought a cross bike essentially to replace my old tourer. This bike, a Spec Tricross, has a carbon fork and it was never clear to me, either by store employees or Spec themselves, of how much weight to put on the front fork--which has mid fork mounting holes for a front rack.
I didnt tour on it much with a front rack, but when I did, I continued my practice of not having much in the front bags, and I was aware of being more careful of this. I had a light front rack going back to about 1990, blackburn lowrider, and my front panniers were small and rather light themselves, so I never had much weight in them, certainly not compared to a later bike and later front rack and pannier setups on my tough Troll.

I have to admit though, it was always in the back of my mind how it wasnt clear of how many lbs the fork was rated for, and also I was more aware of how potentially loose rack bolts could really mess things up, and also that I was much more careful of going over rough stuff when loaded, just because of the unknowns of cf forks and front panniers--figured it was safer to be safe than sorry, easy to do mind you.

djb

one last thing,
1 track-- this forum has all kinds of folks posting, and just wanted you to know that Andrew is one of those guys who for a long time has been a big help to a lot of people with his knowledge and helpful ideas.
One of the many members who make this a nice place to visit and to learn stuff and to share ideas.

1-track-mind

I understand. We worked things out thru private messages. FYI, I had a long chat with a diamondback agent last night about the Haanjo 5c carbon and he said it was rated up to 300 pounds, but that he had never actually toured on one.
I'm not so much anti-carbon as I am peeved to see steel being squeezed out of the adventure touring options...like the combined 12 Haanjo and Renegade models. The fact that most adventure touring bikes accept wider tires than most conventional touring bikes is very appealing to me.
As far as Aluminum, I've had steel and alu hardtails with very similiar geometry and the steel bike was noticeably more comfortable during two hour mtb rides, so I can only imagine what 8 hours would be like.
To be fair, the adventure touring market is geared towards younger, lighter and fitter riders than myself, so my opinions have little value.

djb

glad to hear, he aint a Nixon was all I was putting out.

re carbon, certainly the all carbon bikes are lighter than steel bikes out there on the market. I can appreciate that if one of these bikes weighs 5lbs or even more less than a steel bike, and you go with minimal stuff, the total bike weight is going to be a lot less than other setups , and thats cool--and easier and faster for the same effort.

as I mentioned, I own a Surly Troll, and they certainly are one company that have many steel frames that can be used on all kinds of trips.

but I figure it really does come down to marketing and selling stuff that is all "fast and racey" and such, which for most folks really isnt a big factor, but has a snazzy factor--which has always and always be a factor of selling bikes and stuff.

Andrew R Stewart 

Yes, Rich and I have come to terms, seems that we are more alike then most would think by our public interplay.

djb- I am on your side re- steel being squeezed out. I put my eggs in a steel basket 40 years ago when I picked up a file and a lug. But it's because of this, I can make what I want out of steel, that I have a certain freedom to look at the bike market with different eyes then most. Different then most bike shop employees too (I still wrench for the LBS and owned my own shop for 15 years in my past). I thank my lucky stars to have been in this position. To be able tp play with what I choose regardless of whet the big 3 want me to ride. (My boss would love it if I bought a E shifting Trek). But I wouldn't fret too much as this business is a cyclic one. Just like other discretionary activities cycling goes through trends and what was old gets rehashed as the new in time. I believe there will be builders of steel bikes for many more decades. What is less likely to happen is have these future options at a cost that young and/or low income riders will be able to afford. But that's a far different discussion, although one that carbon is guilty of to a degree. Andy

schoolboy2 

Touring on a carbon fiber road bike (a 2001 Trek 5200). This generation of Trek CF bikes had steel dropouts with threaded holes for fender mounting, but strong enough to handle a rear rack. I only carried about 20-25 lbs of gear. I did the complete Southern Tier on this bike and my only problem occurred at the end when my Mavic Ksyrium wheel cracked where the spoke attached to the rim; it had no impact on the tour as I didn't notice it until I got home.

I used my road bike because I couldn't afford a dedicated touring bike at that time. Once I confirmed that I loved touring, I bought a used LHT.

djb

andrew, despite the topic of steel coming up and while I have three steel bikes, I also have a couple of aluminum bikes and to be honest, all of them work fine and I really dont have concerns about them not working properly for touring. Look at the Cannondale touring bikes which were always such great bikes and I know folks have ridden around the planet on them.
Like I said, I have very limited experience with cf, but have always shied away from a full on cf bike simply because I dont want to spend the money on one, prefer to use that money for a trip somewhere (I'm talking traditionally road bikes as the quote "adventure" bikes, with stronger designed frames are a new thing).
I still have always been a bit wary of a cf frame, thinking of someone in my family dropping the edge of a sharp snow shovel or whatever onto cf, that sort of thing, let alone wanting or needing to throw my bike onto the roof of a Guatemalan chicken bus or something with rough treatment probably in the picture--the old "how will cf deal with a weird, maybe rare (but possible) good whack on it.
I always remember riding up Mont Royal, a inner city small mountain here in Montreal, on the paved road a bunch of years ago. Lots of roadies ride it for training, and a couple on cf road bikes passed me near the top, and the lady who was pretty tired, wasnt looking and rode right into a cement block placed there for the recent Grand Prix de Montreal race (the one Sagan won at least once). She wasnt going fast, but hit it right at the corner of the big cement block that was there for the banner of the "top of the mountain" for the race, she flipped over the bars, was ok, but I could see on her bike that she had put a pretty good gash into the cf frame, right near the headtube....told her and her boyfriend husband, in no certain terms that if they were going to continue riding, that they ride very slowly, as the frame had been clearly damaged and who knows how it was going to behave.

all that blah blah to say that for touring, maybe far off in whereever place, would I use a cf frame....prob not....but given how mtb in cf are abused up the fricken ying yang every day, for most regular uses, I figure a well designed tough frame in cf could work fine.

but what do I know, Im just joe blow who doesnt have much experience or knowledge of cf, but realistically, the vast vast majority of bikes go their whole lives without any bad crashes or whatnot.

BigAura

For me fully-loaded means carrying gear on front and rear and gear should include sleeping, cooking, tent, plus room for a reasonable amount of clothing and personal items. I would not recommend this kind of carbon-rig for expedition touring such as I did on my Alaska tour.



BTW: I'm not near ready to trade in my over-built steel touring rig yet. But maybe someday as if I hear-and-see positive results IRL.

Carbonfiberboy 

My wife and I have done "fully loaded touring" on our tandem, 42 lbs. of gear total, including all the bike tools, pumps, bottles, bags, all that stuff. Very comfortable rain or shine, good times, though we were only out for a few weeks at a time. Our non-bike gear is the same stuff we use for long distance backpacking. We do take only minimal civvies, just enough to hike, eat out, explore towns, etc. So 50 lbs. apiece is a heckuva lot of gear. That's more than we take on a 10-day backpack including food and water.

DropBarFan

Wow, Haanjo 5C Carbon rated for 300 lbs, same as Surly Trucker! Today I did a grocery run on 5C--almost 30 lbs stuff in front panniers on Tubus Tara rack, surprisingly little flex & no shimmy at 28 mph.

IMHO both traditional touring bikes & "adventure" bikes limit tire width too much. Wide tires give a huge increase in comfort for a minor speed penalty. My avg speed on Haanjo 5C with 54mm tires is the same as Surly Disc Trucker with 50mm tires & gives a much softer ride, I rarely have to slow down for bumpy stretches.

djb

absolutely, especially with 2lb-3lb tents and everything nowadays.

clothes arent especially heavy, thats a given, but one can see how it would be easy to add on weight for one person bit by bit depending on diff things--carrying some extra warm clothes, maybe full rain gear that isnt all lightweight (my better rain jacket is a bit heavy, didnt want to spend 300 bucks on a lighter one), maybe a heavier tent (mine is more like 5lbs and a bit, didnt want to spend 400 or 500 bucks for a 2.5lb one person tent) , add a camera, a laptop or a tablet, chargers for them, a cell phone, and you end up with X more pounds too, add in a spare tire and extra tubes if going somewhere where it might be really hard to find replacements-add a few more pounds, a water filter or whatever is a bit of weight also, maybe extra spare parts and or tool kit if going off somewhere far off and want to be really independant.

its that what I was getting at, that yes its easy to pack light or lightish depending on the situation, but sometimes the situation ends up being diff and its fairly easy to find 50lbs on the bike, especially for a longer trip with a wide range of temps and or more unknowns making it wiser to take extra stuff.

Carbonfiberboy 

Totally. That weight I was quoting was with 4 tubes, spare tire, cables, brake pads, tool kit, fiber spokes, camera, phone, chargers for all the USB stuff, liquid fuel stove, elaborate cook kit. No water filter, cassette breaker, or computer. We found that a lot of the trick of going light is also going small: compression sacks for everything fabric, etc. Sleeping system is a great place to save weight and volume. We use a full tent with fly, but a light one. Also being on a tandem means a lot of weight saving because we only need bags, tools, etc. for one bike.

linus

I'm all for carbon. If they have carbon coupled bikes with carbon couplers, they can take my money.

djb

cf feller, thats still pretty impressive for the two of you. You both certainly have it all dialed in really well.

DropBarFan

Calfee makes coupled carbon frames (bring the piggy bank) but AFAIK couplers themselves aren't carbon.

DTG

I'll come back to this with my Renegade Elite packed out (picture). When I rode the Discovery Trail I had my tent, sleeping bag, sleeping pad, socks, rain pants, jacket, gloves, lights, two pairs of pants, 3 tshirts, 2 long sleeve shirts, 2 cycling caps, toiletries, msr stove/pan, some food (bought food to eat daily), etc. As I mentioned earlier in the posting, I ran with a arkel rollerpacker in the front/rear, RD frame bag, jerry can, feed bag (2), gas tank, 2 salsa anything hd cages and just in case I needed more room (never needed it), I had the arkel dry-lites. I would say I had about 25 lbs worth of gear.

BigAura

Cool. As far as gear weight, its always good to have a gear list (with weights) or at least a final packed & ready gross weights. Estimates are not always accurate

Here's my current fully-loaded gear list very similar to my Alaska trip (my tent & sleep system were a bit heavier at the time). This is the list I'd pack for living months on the road, including hot and/or cold weather, plus grizzly bear habitats.

Here's my gear list for my light-weight, mild weather, 2-week tour on the C&O trail and into the West Virginia hills. My OLD 1970's steel bike is what I rode. It's about 25lbs, which is not to bad compared to 21lbs on the Renegade

DropBarFan

Today I had to tote the Haanjo 5C Carbon up steep trail-side stairs, quite easier than with ~6 lb heavier Trucker. & the Haanjo has a flattened top tube so toting bike on shoulder is not as painful. The day before I had to squeeze the Haanjo into the back seat of a car--quite a hassle but would have been harder still with the heavy Trucker.

JohnJ80

Interested in hearing about your experiences with the Extrawheel trailer especially it's performance uphill. We're planning a couple of tours, our most "touring" centric bikes are still some performance cross bikes and we didn't enjoy the ride with 20-30lbs on the bike in rear panniers. We're thinking that the Extrawheel trailers using our fairly light (at least in comparison to full on touring bikes) cross bikes and the trailers is about a wash to the weight of the fully loaded touring bike so the only real difference is the addition of a lightly loaded wheel's rolling resistance. Does that sound about right?

Bottom line, we are fairly light weight on touring gear and will keep it all around 25lbs and certainly below 30lbs.